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COUNCIL OF STATE 
DEBATES 



MONDAY and TUESDAY, 8th and 9th 
FEBRUARY, 1926 

Vol. VII No. 1 



OFFICIAL REPORT 




CONTENTS 

MONDAY, 8th FEBRUARY, 1926. 

Members Sworn. 

Bills passed by the Legislative Assembly Laid on tm~ 
Table. 



TUESDAY, 9th FEBRUARY, 1926. 
Council of State. 



DELHI 

GOVERNMENT OF INDIA PRESS 
1926 



Price Five Annas. 



THE 

COUNCIL OF STATE DEBATES 

(Official Report) 
VOLUME VII 



FIRST SESSION 

OF THE 



SECOND COUNCIL OF STATE, 1926 




DELHI 

GOVERNMENT OF INDIA PRESS 
1926 



THE 

COUNCIL OF STATE DEBATES 

(OFFICIAL REPORT OF THE FIRST SESSION OF THE SECOND 

COUNCIL OF STATE) 



VOLUME VII 

FIEST VOLUME OF SESSION 1926. 



COUNCIL OF STATE. 

Monday, 8th February, 19%6. 



The Council mot in the Council Chamber at Metcalf House, at Eleven 
of the Clock, being the first day of the First Session of the Second Council 
pursuant to Section 63D(2) of the Government of India Act, and the Hon- 
ourable the President (Sir Henry Moncrieff Smith, Kt., C.LE. ) took the 
Chair. 



The Honourable the President, then standing, subscribed the Oath and 
signed the Boll. 



MEMBEKS SWOEN: 

His Excellency Field Marshal Sir William Biddell Birdwood, Bart., 
G.C.B., G.C.M.G., K.C.S.L, C.I.E., D.S.O. (Commander-in-Chief) ; the 
Honourable Khan Bahadur Sir Muhammad Habibullah, Sahib Bahadur, 
K.C.I.E., Kt. (Member for Education, Health and Lands); the Honour- 
able Mr. Satish Banjan Das, (Law Member); the Honourable Mr. Evelyn 
Bobins Abbott, C.LE. (Delhi : Nominated Official) ; the Honourable Major 
General Sir Bobert Charles MacWatt, Kt., C.I.E., M.B., F.B.C.S., K.H.S., 
I. M.S., (Director General, Indian Medical Service); the Honourable Baja 
Sir Harnam Singh, K. C.I.E. (Punjab: Nominated Non-Official); the 
Honourable Mr. John William Anderson Bell (Bengal Chamber of Com- 
merce); the Honourable Sir Arthur Froom, Kt. (Bombay Chamber of 
Commerce) ; the Honourable Sir Dinshaw Edulji Wacha, Kt. (Bombay : 
Nominated Non-Official); the Honourable Sir Charles George Todhunter, 
K.C.S.L (Madras: Nominated Official); the Honourable Mr. David Thomas 
Chadwick, C.S.I., C.LE. (Commerce Secretary); the Honourable Mr. 
Arthur Cecil McWatters, C.LE. (Finance Secretary); the Honourable Mr. 
James Crerar, C.S.I., C.LE. (Home Secretary); the Honourable Mr. 
Arthur Herbert Ley, C.S.I., C.LE., C.B.E. (Secretary for Industries and 
Labour); the Honourable Mr. John Perronet Thompson, C.S.I. (Political 
Secretary); the Honourable Mr. James Alexander Bichey, C.LE. (Edu- 
cational Commissioner frith the Government of India) ; the Honourable Mr. 

(1). A 



COUNCIL OF STATE. [8TH FEB. 1926. 

/ 

Ganesh Srikrishna Khaparde (Berar : Nominated Non-Official) ; the Honour- 
able Sardar Charanjit Singh (Punjab : Nominated Non-Official) ; the Honour- 
able Nawab Sahibzada Sayad Mohammad Mehr Shah (East and West 
Punjab: Muhammadan); the Honourable Mr. Keshav Chandra Roy, C.I.E. 
(Bengal: Nominated Non-Official);' the Honourable Maulvi Abdul Karim 
(East Bengal: Muhammadan); the Honourable Mr. Thomas Emerson, 
C.S.I., C.I.E. (Bengal: Nominated Official); the Honourable Saiyed 
Mohamcd Padshah Sahib Bahadur (Madras : Muhammadan) ; the Honour- 
able Mr. Pundi Chetlur Desika Chari (Burma: General); the Honourable 
Maulvi Golam Mostaf a Chaudhury (Assam : Muhammadan) ; the Honour- 
able Seth Govind Das (Central Provinces: General); the Honourable Mr. 
John Austen Hubback (Bihar and Orissa : Nominated Official) ; the 
Honourable Mr. Shah Muhammad Zubair (Bihar and Orissa: Muhammad- 
an); the Honourable Mr. Anugraha Narayan Sinha (Bihar and Orissa: 
Non-Muhammadan) ; the Honourable Mr. Mahcndra Prasad (Bihar and 
Orissa: Non-Muhammadan); the Honourable Diwan Tek Chand, O.B.E. 
(Punjab : Nominated Official) ; the Honourable Colonel Nawab Sir Umar 
Hayat Khan, K.C.I.E., C.B.E., M.V.O. (Punjab: Nominated Non-Official); 
the Honourable Raja Nawab Ali Khan (United Provinces : Nominated Non- 
Official) ; the Honourable Pandit Shyam Bihari Misra (United Provinces : 
Nominated Official); the Honourable Saiyid Alay Nabi (United Provinces 
West: Muhammadan); the Honourable Kai Bahadur Nalininath Sett 
(West Bengal : Non-Muhammadan) ; the Honourable Mr. Mahmood 
JSuhrawardy (West Bengal : Muhammadan) ; the Honourable Srijut Loke- 
nath Mukherjeo (West Bengal: Non-Muhammadan); the Honourable 
Minn Ali Baksh Muhammad Hussain (Sihd : Muhammadan) ; the Honour- 
able Mr. Ebrahim Haroon Jaffer (Bombay Presidency : Muhammadan) ; 
the Honourable Mr. John Ernest Buttery Hotson (Bombay: Nominated 
Official); the Honourable Rao Sahib Dr. U. Rama Rao (Madras: Non- 
Muhanimaclan) ; and the Honourable Mr. V. Ramadas Pantulu (Madras: 
Non-Muhammadan). 



BILLS PASSED BY THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY LAID ON THE 

TABLE. 

THE SECRETARY OP THE COUNCIL: Sir, in accordance with Rule 
25 of the Indian Legislative Rules, I lay on the table copies of a Bill fur- 
ther to amend the Code of Criminal Procedure, 1898; a Bill further to amend 
the Indian Lunacy Act, 1912, a Bill to resolve certain doubts as to the 
powers, in regard to the attachment of immovcable property, of Provin- 
cial SrnallCause Courts; a Bill further to amend the Madras Civil Courts 
Act, 1873; a Bill further to amend the Guardians and Wards Act, 1890; 
and a Bill to determine the liability of certain Governments to taxation 
in British India in respect of trading operations, which Bills were passed 
by the Legislative Assembly at its meetings held on the 21st January, 1926, 
and 1st and 3rd February, 1926. 

THE HONOURABLE THE PRESIDENT : Before adjourning the Council, 
would remind Honourable Members that there is a meeting at 12 in 
Chamber to-day at which Sir Howard D'Egville will address us on 
subject of the formation of a branch in the Indian Legislature of the 
Empire Parliamentary Association. 

Th$ Council then adjourned till Eleven of tne Clook on Tuesday, the 
9th February, 1926. 



COUNCIL OF STATE. 

Tuesday, 9th February, 1926. 



INAUGUEATION OF THE SECOND COUNCIL OF STATE. 



His Excellency the Viceroy with the President of the Council of State 
having arrived in procession, His Excellency took his seat on the dais. 



His EXCELLENCY THE VICEROY : Gentlemen of the Council 
of State, I have summoned you to-day because I desire to 
welcome you at the beginning of the Session of your Chamber. 
The first Council of State concluded its labours in September 
last and dissolved. The body I see before mo to-day has since come 
into being as a result of new elections and nominations and is about to 
begin in the present Session to exercise its important functions as a vital 
part of the constitutional machinery of the government of the country. 
In my address to the Members of the first Council of State at the close 
of their final Session, I dwelt upon the nature of those functions and 
expressed my appreciation of the conception of their duties, which had been 
formed by tho Members of the first Council of State and of the able 
manner in which those high responsib'lities had been discharged in the 
interests of India. It is more particularly, in view of these considerations 
and in order to mark my regard for the- important position of this Chamber 
in the constitutional structure and my esteem for the public services to 
the people and the administrations rendered by it in the past, that I 
desired to offer welcome and encouragement to those to whom it will 
now fall to carry on the traditions of this Chamber and to exercise' the 
influence assigned to it by the constitution. 

Among the Members I see the faces of a number of old acquaintances 
who were Members of the first Council of State. By their work in this 
Chamber they have already displayed the high qualities of their experience, 
sobriety of judgment, sense of duty and devotion to the best interests of 
India. I welcome them again to the Chamber. I also welcome those 
who are new Members. With some of the latter I have already formed 
personal acquaintance ; and others are known to me by the record of their 
public work. I congratulate them on the wide field of interest and activity 
which their admission to this Chamber opens to them. I am confident 
that I can redy upon them in their actions to bear in mind the weighty 
responsibilities assigned to this Chamber in the constitution and ever to 
strive, iafter careful consideration and according to the dictates of their 
judgment, to arrive at those conclusions upon the difficult questions coming 
before them, which are best calculated to conduce to the greater happiness 
SJUid progress of the people and to the maintenance of the highest standards 
of administration in India. 

I do not propose to-day to enter upon a review of questions of general 
interest in India, as I have recently addressed the Legislative Assembly; 

( 3 ) 



4 COUNCIL OF STATE. [9TH FEB. 1926. 

[H. E. the Viceroy.] 

but I shall briefly allude to certain matters of special interest at the 
present time. 

I greatly appreciated the action of the Members of the Legislative 
Assembly in regard to postponing the discussion of the Resolution upon 
the situation in South Africa. Debate at that moment might have pre- 
judiced the delicate and critical negotiations in which I and my Govern- 
ment are engaged with the Government of the Union of South Africa. I 
can assure the Indian Legislature that in " these negotiations we have 
taken and are taking every stop which, to the best of our judgment, is 
calculated to help in arriving at a solution satisfactory to Indian opinion 
of this difficult problem. I have given anxious thought ,and my close 
personal attention to every step we have taken, and I gratefully acknow- 
ledge that the attitude of the Indian Legislature and the Standing Com- 
mittco has been >a strong support to me throughout these negotiations. 
I must nsk the Legislature to have a little further patience notwith- 
standing the news from South Africa in this morning's press telegrams, 
and to continue to trust in our efforts. I wish it had been possible to 
explain the situation more fully to you, but I am sure that you will 
understand why I refrain from adding to the statements I made recently 
in addressing the Legislative Assembly. 

I feel certain that this Chamber has been interested in the announce- 
ment of the decision to appoint a Royal Commission on Agriculture. This 
Chamber has always taken a lively interest in this subject. In July, 1923, 
the Honourable Sardar Jogendra Singh moved a Resolution for the appoint- 
ment of a Committee by Government to consider questions, nearly all of 
which fall within the scope of the terms of reference of the Royal Com- 
mission now to be appointed. Tn February, 1924, the Honourable Mr. 
Sethna advocated the appointment of a Committee to make a survey of 
the economic conditions of the people of India with special reference to the 
condition of the agricultural population; arid ion the 5th of March in the 
same year Sardar Jogendra Singh moved a Resolution advocating a further 
survey of irrigation possibilities. All these Resolutions had the same 
object in view, that is, an increase of agricultural productivity and the 
improvement of the economic conditions of the rural population. The 
first of the three motions was lost, but the two latter were adopted. In 
addressing the Legislature in September last, I laid stress on the import- 
ance attached by me and my Government to these representations. I 
then stated that I hoped to secure the general object in view by the opera- 
tions of a Central Board. It appeared at the time that a general inquiry 
by a Committee or Commission might be open to some objections and 
might possibly hinder the projects of the Local Governments. A closer 
examination of the problem has, however, convinced us that the machinery 
of a Board would be inadequate to secure the far-reaching results for which 
we all hope. It appeared imperative, having in view the great importance 
of this subject to India as a whole and the large numbers of persons in 
India wholly dependent upon agricultural operations, to constitute a special 
body which might be calculated to bring to the task a wider jatore of ex- 
perience, a more detached angle of view and a greater authority than we 
could hope to obtain from a Central Board. A body of this character, in 
our opinion, appeared to be in a better position to devise .effective measures 
for the expansion and co-ordination o agricultural efforts in India and 



IT. E. THE VICEROY'S SPEECH. 5 

to give real assistance, based on the fruits of the latest practical and (Scienti- 
fic experience elsewhere, to the Ministers and Departments of the Local 
Governments to enable them to obtain the best results from their activities. 
It was in this conviction and after consultation with the Secretary of State 
$nd Local Governments that we finally framed our recommendations to 
the Secretary of State for the appointment of a' Eoyal Commission. Let 
me once more make plain that our object is to expand and strengthen the 
operations of the Ministries of Agriculture of the Local Governments and 
to assist .them with information and suggestions, which might not otherwise 
be .available to them, for still further supplementing their achievements. It 
is not desired in any way to curtail their powers of initiative or action 
quite the reverse. At the same time, care has. been taken not to overload 
the inquiry by entrusting to it the examination into certain other important 
imbjects connected with agriculture. These problems have technicalities 
of their own and vary in character in each Province. They already engage 
attention of the Local Governments and are in many cases the subject < f 
legislative proposals in the Local Legislatures. 

You will doubtless have observed that there has been criticism hinting 
at some dark political motive in the appointment of the Commission. It 
is unnecessary, I feel sure, for me to repudiate the suggestion. The im- 
provement of the premier industry of this country and the advancement 
of the interests of the most numerous class in India appears to me, as I 
(have no doubt it also appears to you, to be a purpose wholly beneficent 
in its scope and outside the sphere of political controversy. It has long 
been the subject of consideration by me and my Government and by the 
Legislature. I rejoice that it has been my good fortune to announce tho 
decision during my term of office and that it will fall to the lot of my 
distinguished successor, who is specially qualified in this respect, to deal 
with the recommendations that will be made. 

My Government have recently had under their consideration the adop- 
tion of a new policy regarding opium which is in accordance with the 
trend of opinion in a number of other countries and also with views that 
have been freely expressed in some quarters on different occasions in 
India. We have very carefully examined the new obligations undertaken 
by us under Article 1 of the Protocol to the Convention of the Second 
Opium Conference at Geneva, "to take such measures as may be required 
to prevent completely within five years from the present date the 
smuggling of opium from constituting a serious obstacle to the effective 
suppression of the use of prepared opium". As a result wo have come 
to the conclusion that in order at once to fulfil our international obligations 
in the largest measure and to obviate .the complications that may arise 
from the delicate and invidious task of attempting to sit in judgment on 
the internal policy of other Governments, it is desirable that we should 
declare publicly our intention to redutoe progressively the exports of 
opium from India so as to extinguish them altogether within a definite 
period, except as regards exports of opium for strictly medical purposes. 
The period to be fixed has not yet been finally determined, as before 
arriving at a decision it is necessary to conisult the Government of the 
United Provinces regarding the effects that the resulting reduction in the 
area cultivated with opium will have on the cultivators in that Province. 
We further propose to discontinue altogether. the system of auction sales 
of opium in India as soon as the agreement for direct sale now being 
negotiated with the Government of French Indochina, is concluded. Hy 



6 COUNCIL OF STATE. [9TH FEB. 1026. 

[H. E. the Viceroy.] 

Government hope at an early date to- move a Resolution in both Chambers 
of the Legislature in order to give the Members of the Legislature an 
opportunity of expressing their views on these important proposals. 

Since I last addressed the Legislative Assembly on the 20th of January, 
I have received an important communication from His Majesty's Govern- 
ment on a subject which I feel sure you will welcome. The question of 
taking the first steps towards the creation of an Indian Navy had been 
under the consideration of my Government for some time past. This was 
one of the tasks to which Lord Rawlinson devoted much of his energy 
and time before his lamented death. The inclination of my Government 
to take concrete measures was strengthened by the strong recommendation 
of the Mercantile Marine Committee to reorganise the Royal Indian Marine 
on the lines of a combatant naval service ; and after a careful preliminary 
examination of the problems and a full consideration of the advice of 
several naval experts, my Government during last cold weather decided 
tp invite a Committee, under the presidency of Lord Rawlinson with Vice- 
Admiral Richmond and Sir Bhupeudra Nath Mitra as members, to 
formulate definite proposals. The report of this Committee will be 
published to-day. Their recommendations were accepted in general 
principle by my Government and forwarded to the Secretary of State for 
approval. 

I am now in a position to make the following announcement as regards 
the decision of His Majesty's Government: 

" Subject to the necessary legislation being effected, it has been decided to reconstruct 
the Royal Indian Marine as a combatant force to enable India to enter upon the 
first stage of her naval development, and ultimately to undertake her own naval defence. 
Subject to the approval of His Majesty the King Emperor, the service will be known 
as the Royal Indian Navy and will fly the White Ensign. Its functions in peace time 
will be as denned in paragraph 3 of the Report of Lord Rawlinson's Committee. Its 
most important aspect in the early stages will be that of a training squadron. It 
will train the persmmel for service in war. For this purpose it will become from the 
first a sea-going force. In addition in peace time its functions will include the services 
required by the Government of India in the Indian Ocean and Persian Gulf, the 
organisation of naval defence at ports, marine survey in the Indian Ocean and 
marine transport work for the Government of India. The fleet will consist, in its 
first stage of development, of the vessels enumerated in paragraph 4 of the report. 
The inauguration of the Royal Indian Navy will be entrusted to the jjersonnel of the 
existing service, subject to any necessary readjustment of cadres, and Indian gentlemen 
will be eligible to hold commissioned rank in that service. The changes which this 
policy involves will be carried out as soon as an agreement has been reached, in 
consultation with the Admirality, and with other authorities whose expert advice 
and assistance will be necessary, on dot ailed questions of administration, organisation 
and finance." 

I need not emphasise to the Honourable Members of this Chamber the 
significance of this decision. Tt embodies an important principle. Think- 
ing men in India have long desired the creation of an Indian Navy for 
India capable of defending her coasts, her harbours and her commerce. 
That laudable ambition will now have its scope. 

Let me dwell for a moment upon two features in the announcement. 
To the imagination of those, who understand the traditions of the British 
Empire, t'he privilege granted to the Indian Navy of the future to fly the 
White Ensign should appeal with special significance. India by this 
privilege is directly admitted at the outset of her naval career, to share in 
the record of the' centuries of proud and gallant traditions <# which that 
Ensign stands, 



H. E. 1MB VICEROY'S SPEECH. ) 

It is a high privilege ; it carries with it the great responsibility of rendering 
service worthy of the honours conferred. Even to embark on the first 
stage of the performance of those duties, which the greatest Navy in the 
world has been performing, is no light task. Nevertheless I feel sure that 
it will be courageously undertaken as a vital part of India's natural 
ambitions and hope. 

To Indians a new and honourable career of national service has been 
opened. The recommendation of Lord Rawlinson's Committee has been 
accepted that Indians desiring to qualify for Commissions in the Indian 
Navy should receive special facilities for suitable education in earlier years 
and later for technical training in the naval profession. I look to those 
who elect to set out on this career to use every effort to fit themselves for 
their task to foster an esprit de corps and to found here in India those 
traditions of high efficiency and courage which the pages of history 
commemorate as the proud possession of the Navy of Great Britain. 

Much constructive work remains to be clone before there is a Royal 
Indian Navy in being. Legislation will be necessary. Ships must be 
acquired and specially equipped for commission in Indian waters. Details 
of organisation and finance have to be examined. Careful and thorough 
preparation will be called for. These processes, which will take some time, 
are on hand and will be completed with the least possible delay. These 
are matters of detail, though of grout importance to the success of the 
project, and I do not propose to discuss them to-day; many of them are 
referred to in the report now published which explains the frame-work of 
the project. I need only at the moment mention that from the preliminary 
estimates it appears that the creation of the Indian Navy in its initial 
stages is not expected to involve any large addition to public expenditure. 
Of more importance than questions of detail is the acceptance of the policy 
of the creation for India of a naval service of her own. I am confident 
that this great opportunity will be welcomed and turned to the best account 
for the lasting benefit of India. 

In my address at the opening of the Session of the Legislative Assembly 
I referred to the creation of a Hates Advisory Committee and to the im- 
portant functions with which the Committee would be entrusted in the 
administration of our railways. ' It may be of interest to many in this 
Chamber to know that I have offered the presidency of this Committee to 
Sir Narasimha Sarma, who was formerly Leader of the Council of State, 
and that he has agreed to serve in this capacity. I feel sure that his 
appointment will be welcomed both by his former colleagues in this 
Chamber and by the public generally. 

I was indebted to the late Council of State not only for the work 
performed on behalf of India in the Chamber itself, but for the eminent 
services of individual Members of the Chamber on important Committees 
and Commissions. I feel sure I can rely on the Members of the present 
Council of State for the same measure of support and help. I note that 
Sardar Jogendra Singh, who was a Member of this Chamber, in spite of 
having undertaken the responsible and arduous duties of Minister in the 
Government of the Punjab, has intimated that he will gladly continue to 
serve on the Indian Sandhurst Committee; and Mr. Sethna, who is a past 
and present Member of the Council of State, has undertaken ttie heavy 
obligation of proceeding to England and elsewhere for three months as a 



8 COUNCIL OF STATE. [0TH FEB. 1026. 

[H. E. the Viceroy.] 

member of the same Committee in order to study military training institu- 
tions. I appreciate this keen desire to perform public service even at 
personal inconvenience, and I gladly bring to notice these instances of the 
spirit which animates the Members of this Chamber in their outlook on 
their responsibilities to the public. 

When I last addressed this Chamber I expressed my gratification that 
the observations made by me in my speech to the Indian Legislature at 
the opening of the last Session had been correctly understood in this 
Chamber, and that my desire to see a spirit of more friendly co-operation 
and goodwill had been appreciated, There were two considerations of 
importance. In the first place by the evidence of a spirit of this character 
an earlier appointment of the Statutory Commission might be secured. 
I understand that this is the aspiration of all in India whose avowed desire 
is to attain political progress by constitutional means. Not less important 
is the other consideration that by this spirit alone a better political 
atmosphere would come into existence and prevail at the time the Com- 
mission commenced its inquiry. I brought those considerations to the 
attention of this Chamber on its dissolution, and I again commend them 
to the notice of the reconstituted Council of State. Without the existence 
of conditions in which forms of responsible institutions can develop 
harmoniously, the results of an inquiry by a Statutory Commission may 
fall short of expectations. Let us remember the intentions of Parliament 
as expressed in the Preamble of the Act: "And whereas the action of 
Parliament must be guided by the co-operation received from those on 
whom new opportunities of service will be conferred". 

It is thus made clear that proof of genuine goodwill in the direction of 
working the constitution to the best advantage will be regarded by the 
British Parliament as an important factor for their guidance in determining 
the course to be pursued in the immediate future. If this view is correct, 
and I can scarcely conceive the possibility of contradiction, and ~as the 
future stages of advance must be decided by the British Parliament, 
would it not benefit India's political progress to provide plain and un- 
ambiguous evidence of this goodwill? I dealt at some length with this 
aspect of the constitutional question in my recent address to the Assembly. 
I expressed my regret that the Legislature had not availed itself definitely 
of the opportunity afforded to it, and that the spirit manifested in the offer 
by His Majesty's Government had not met with a more ready and 
complete response. No useful purpose would now be served by repeating 
the tenour of my observations. 

They were intended to help India and were conceived to the best of 
my judgment in the true interests of Indian political progress. In some 
quarters they have elicited comment and criticism which seem to 
indicate a complete misunderstanding both of the purpose I had in view 
and the spirit that animated me. I feel sure that I run no such risk in 
this Chamber and that I may look to it with confidence for greater 
encouragement in my expectations. Once more let me solemnly assert my 
profound conviction that it is along this avenue that the aims and aspira- 
tions of India may the more quickly be attained, and that true prospects 
of peaceful progress may the more surely be found. I still cHerieh the 
hope that India will not tarry in pursuing it. 



Copies of the Debates of the Legislative Assembly and of the 
Council of State are obtainable on sale from the Manager, Central 
Publication Branch, 8, Hastings Street, Calcutta. 



COUNCIL OF STATE 
DEBATES 



WEDNESDAY, 10th FEBRUARY, 1926 

Vol. VII-No. 2 



OFFICIAL REPORT 




CONTENTS 



Member Sworn. 

Questions and Answers. 

Welcome to Members by the Honourable the President. 

Messages from His Excellency the Governor General re 

(1) Panel of Chairmen; 

(2) Presentation and Discussion of the Railway 

Budget. 

Committee on Petitions. 

Appointment of the Honourable Mr. K. C. Roy to the 
Library Committee. 

Governor General's Assent to Bills. 

Bills passed by the Legislative Assembly Laid on the 
Table. 

Election of a Panel for the Standing Committee 
on Emigration. 

Resolution re Ratification of the Draft Convention of the 
International Labour Conference concerning Work- 
men's Compensation for Occupational Diseases- 
Adopted. 

Resolution re Continuation of the Imposition of a Customs 
Duty on Lac Adopted. 

Statement of Business. 

DELHI 

GOVERNMENT OF INDIA PRESS 
j 1926 



Price Five Annas. 



COUNCIL OF STATE. 

Wednesday, 10th February, 1926. 



The Council met in the Council Chamber at Eleven of the Clock, the 
Honourable the President in the Chair. 



MEMBER SWOliN : 

The Honourable Rai Bahadur Lala Ram Saran Das, C.I.E. (Punjab: 
Non-Muhammad an). 

QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS. 

CONSTRUCTION or A RAILWAY LINK BETWEEN MANOALOIIE AND HASSAN. 

1. THE HONOURABLE RAO SAHIB DR. U. RAMA RAO: Will the 
Honourable Member in charge of Commerce and Railways be pleased to 
state : 

(i) whether it is w proposed to construct a railway line between 
Mangalorc and Hassan; 

(ii) if so, of what gauge; whether the estimates therefor have been 
sanctioned and approved 'by the Railway Board and for what 
amount ; 

(iii) the principal towns which the line is intended to touch in the 
district of South Kanara; and 

(iv) when the construction work is likely to commence? 

THE HONOURABLE MR. D. T. CHADWICK : (i) (iv). The proposal for 
the construction of a railway line from Mangalorc to Hassan is in abeyance, 
as an examination of the project prepared in 1917 showed that its financial 
prospects do not justify the construction of this line at present. 

SEPARATION OF JUDICIAL AND EXECUTIVE FUNCTIONS. 

2. THE HONOURABLE RAO SAIIIB DR. U. RAMA RAO: Will the 
Government of India be pleased to state : 

(a) whether they have received from the Government of Madras 

the report of the Committee appointed by the latter to report 
on the separation of executive and judicial functions, with 
their opinions thereon; 

(b) whether the Government have so far issued any orders laying 

down their policy in the matter; and 

(c) if so, will the Government be pleased to place their orders on 

the table of the House; if not, will the Government be pleased 
to state when orders are likely to issue? 

( 9 ) A 



10 COUNCIL OF STATE, [10TH J?EB. 1926. 

THE HONOURABLE MR. J. CRERAR: (1) Yes 

<2) No. 

t(3) I cannot say at present when a decision is likely to be arrived at. 

THE MADRAS LAND REVENUE BILL. 

3. THE HONOURABLE RAO SAHIB DR. U. RAMA RAO: Will the 
Government of India be pleased to state : 

(a) whether they have received for sanction from the Madras Govern- 

ment a Land Revenue Bill to give effect to the recommenda- 
tions of the Joint Parliamentary Committee; 

(b) whether sanction has been accorded; if not, why; and 

(c) whether the Government will place a copy of the Bill received 

from the Madras Government on the table of this House? 

THE HONOURABLE SIR MUHAMMAD HABIBULLAH: (1) The Govern- 
ment of India have received the draft. Bill referred to. 

(2) It is presumed that in speaking of "sanction" the Honourable 
Member refers to the executive approval of the Government of India. 
That approval has not yet been conveyed. The draft Bill raised certain 
important questions of principle which are the subject of correspondence 
between the Government of India and the Government of Madras. 

(3) Government regret their inability to comply with the Honourable 
Member's request. 

RETKANSYEU TO BENGAL ov CERTAIN BENGALI STATE PRISONERS 

DETAINED IN JAILS IN THE MADUAvS PRESIDENCY. 

4. THE HONOURABLE lUo SAHIB Dn. U. RAMA RAO: Will the 
Government of India be pleased to state : 

(a) whether the Bengali State prisoners, Messrs. Das, Ganguly and 
Gupta, have been transferred to Trichinopoly and Messrs. 
Sen, Sircar and Muzumdar to Cannanore Jails; 

(6) whether it is a fact that they have been put in punishment 
cells ; 

(c) whether it is a fact that they have been deprived of the privileges 

enjoyed by them in the jails in Burma and Bengal in which 
they were previously stationed; 

(d) whether Messrs. Das and Ganguly had been suffering from 

duodenal ulcer and nasal catarrh and cystitis, respectively, 
in the places in which they were previously stationed and 
whether they were recommended by the medical officers of 
the respective jails to be placed under the treatment of 
specialists ; 

(e) whether it is a fact that no treatment has been given them till 

now; and 

(/) whether in view of the unsuitability of Madras jails, owing to 
climatic, food, and other considerations, the Government will 
order their retransfer to Bengal? 



QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS. 11 

THE HONOURABLE MR. J. CRERAR: (a) Certain State prisoners have 
been transferred to jailg in the Madras Presidency. I am not prepared 
lo specify the jails in which individual prisoners are confined. 

(6) The facts are that in one jail each prisoner has two cells, one 
for use, as a bed room and the other as a store room. They have also 
another cell as a common dining room. In the other, State prisoners are 
confined in a separate enclosure consisting of 20 well -ventilated airy cells. 
Each prisoner has the use of three cells, one as a bed room, one for 
storage of property and one as a sitting room. 

(c) No. Uniformity of treatment has as far as possible been secured. 

(d) and (e). The reply to (d) is in the negative, in so far as Babu Puma 
Chandra -Das is concerned. Babu Pratul Chandra Ganguli had been 
suffering from nasal catarrh and bacillary infection of the urinary tract 
and the medical officer had recommended treatment by a specialist. As, 
however, his condition did not appear to give cause for anxiety, the question 
of specialist treatment \v:is postponed until his transfer to the Madras 
Presidency. Since his arrival there he has been examined by the District 
Medical Officer and the Inspector General of Prisons, both of whom have 
expressed the opinion that the prisoner is not seriously ill, tha,t. his 
condition does not necessitate surgical treatment and that treatment on 
constitutional lines should be given a fair chance before other action is 
.taken. 

(/) Government have no present intention of doing so. 

THE HONOURABLE JUo SAHIB DR. U. RAMA RAO: Is the Honourable 
Member aware that, in reply to private notice question No. 4 (b) put by 
Mr. A. Raiigaswami lyengar in the Legislative Assembly on the 26th 
January last (vide page 256, Volume VII, No. 4, Legislative Assembly 
Debates), the Honourable the Home Member said, in respect to the 
prisoner, Mr. P. C. Ganguli, that "he is not seriously ill, that his con- 
dition does not necessitate surgical treatment and that treatment "on 
constitution ul lines should b given a fair chance before other action is 
taken?" 

THE HONOURABLE Mil. -J. CRERAR : I am aware that the Honourable 
'the Home Member gave a reply in another place in terms very similar 
to my reply to the Honourable Member now. 

THE HONOURABLE RAO SAHIB DR. II. RAMA EAO : In view of (fiat 
reply, will tho Honourable Member kindly enlighten us as to the nature 
of the treatment given to this prisoner, surgical or otherwise? 

THE HONOURABLE Mu. J. CRERAR : As explained in my reply our 
latest information is this, that medical opinion is that surgical treatment 
is not necessary and that treatment on constitutional lines, that is, treat- 
ment directed to a general improvement of the general health of the 
prisoner is all thai is nt present required. 

THE HONOURABLE RAO SAHIB DR. U. RAMA RAO: Will the Honour- 
able Member say if these prisoners are all free from their respective 
complaints now? 

THE HONOURABLE Mn. J. CRERAR: The information I have given is 
most recent information in the possession of the Government of India. 
If the Honourable Member desires any further information of a more 
recent date, I must ask him to give me notice. 

A 2 



12 COUNCIL OF STATE. [lOrii FEB. 1926. 

SEPARATION ox JUDICIAL AND EXECUTIVE FUNCTIONS. 

5. THE HONOURABLE 13 ABU ANUGEAHA NARAYAN S1NHA: (a) Will 
the Government be pleased to give a list of the Provincial Governments 
from whom they have received proposals in respect of the separation of 
judicial and executive functions? 

(6) When did they receive the proposal from the Government of Bihar 
and Orissa on the report of the Committee appointed by the latter in that 
province to formulate a scheme for the said separation of functions? 

(c) Have the Government of India been able to reach a definite decision, 
on the matter? If so, have they addressed or do they propose to address- 
the Local Governments concerned on the subject? If not, why not? 

(d) Are they aware that public dissatisfaction with the delay in giving 
effect to the scheme of separation has been voiced in the Bihar and Orissa 
Legislative Council more than once by means of questions and budget 
motions ? 

THE HONOURABLE MR. J. CKERAR: (a.) Proposals have been received 
from the Governments of Madras, Bengal, the United Provinces and 
Bihar and Orissa, some of which are tentative. 

(b) The Bihar and Orissa proposals were received in June 1923. 

(c) Not at present. The reply to the second part does not therefore 
arise, and the reply to the third part is the complexity of the subject. 

(d) Government are aware of the references to the subject in the Bihar 
and Orissa Legislative Council. 

PROPOSED LEVY. OF RATES ON COAL EXPORTED FROM BIIJAR AND 

ORISSA. 

6. THE HONOURABLE BAKU ANUGRAHA NARAYAN SINHA: Will the 
Government of India be pleased to state : 

(a) if it is i\ fact that the Government of Bihar and Orissa sent up 
proposals to them suggesting the levy of rates on coal exported 
from the province with a view to increase their financial 
resources ; 

(6) if the answer be in the affirmative, will the Government be 
pleased to state whether they approved of the suggested 
scheme ; if not, why ; and 

(c) if the correspondence nirntifn-" 1 ' ' ' ' hi ". will the 

Government be pleased to state the month and year in which 
they received the communication in question from the Bihar 
Government a ad the month and the year in which they sent 
them (the Bihar Government) their reply? 

THE HONOURABLE MR. A. C. McWATTBBS : (a.) Yes. 

(b) The proposal was not accepted. It involved taxing the raw material 
of industry all over India, and it was considered unfair to other provinces 
to abandon to one province, on account of its privileged position, what 
should be, if imposed at all, a source of central revenue. 

(c) The proposal was made in June 1922 and the final communication 
from the Government of India, after consulting other Local Governments, 
was in March, 1923. 



QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS. 13 

AIUIEARS of WORK ix THE PATNA HIGH COURT. 

7. THE HONOURABLE BABU ANUGKAgA NARAYAN SINHA: (a) Will 
the Government be pleased to lay on the table a statement showing the 
total number of " undisposed of cases in the Patna High Court up to the 
1st of January last under the following heads and also stating under each 
head the year in which they were filed : 

(1) First Appeals; 

(2) Second Appeals; 

(3) Civil Revisions; 

(4) Miscellaneous? 

(b) Is there any proposal permanently to increase the number of puisne 
judges of the Putna High Court by making the present additional judges 
permanent or to appoint more additional judges to dispose of the arrears? 

THE HONOURABLE MR. J. CRERAR: (a) A statement is laid on the 
table showing the number of pending cases on the 1st January 1925. The 
further information desired by the Honourable Member is not readily 
available and to collect it would entail the expenditure of considerable 
time and labour which, in the opinion of Government, would not be 
.commensurate with the result. 

(b) The Government of India are not aware of any such proposals. 

List of pending cises in the. Patna Higli Covrl on the Is! January^ 1923. 



First appeals 
Second appeals 
Civil revisions 
Miscellaneous cases 



Pending on tbc 
1st January, 1025. 



823 

3,186 

232 

JOS 



AMALGAMATION OF THE OUIYA-SPEAKINCI THACTS. 

8. THE HONOURABLE BABIT ANUGKAHA NAHAYAN SINHA: (a) 

Have the Government of India concluded their consideration of the report 

of Messrs. Phillip unrl Duff on the question of the amalgamation of the 

Oriy a- speaking tracts in the Presidency of Madras with the Orissa Division 

'df the province of Bihar and Orissa? 

(b) If the answer is in the affirmative, will they be pleased to state 
if they have sent up their proposals to the Secretary of State? If so, when? 

(c) Will the Government also be pleased to lay on the table copies 
of their despatch on the report? 

THE HONOURABLE Mn. J. CKERAH: The question is still under con- 
sideration. 

COMMITTEES APPOINTED DURING- THE YEARS 1922, 1923 AND 1924. 

9. THE HONOURABLE BABU ANUGKAHA NAHAYAN SINHA : Will the 
Government be pleased to lay on the table a statement 

(a) showing the number of Committees appointed by them during 
1 the years 1922, 1923 and 1924 ; 



14 COUNCIL OF STATE. [10TH FEB. 1926. 

(b) the expenditure incurred on each of them; 

(c) how many and which of them have already submitted their 

reports and how many are yet engaged in their work; an<| 

(d) the action Government have taken on those reports that have 

already been submitted to them? 

THE HONOURABLE MR. J. CEEEAR: I am having the information 
asked for in parts (.), (b) and (c) of the question collected and will lay it 
on the table of the House irf a few days' time. As regards part (d) I 
regret that it would be impossible for me to give the information asked 
for within the reasonable limits of a reply to a question. I suggest that, 
in respect of any report or reports in which the Honourable Member is 
particularly interested, he should address specific questions to the Honour- 
able Members representing the Departments concerned. 

PKK/JKXTAUK OF APPOINTMENTS HELD TN THE IMPERIAL SERVICES BY 
INDIANS AND NON-INDIANS. 

10. Tins HONOUKAULK BAKU ANUGRAHA NA11AYAN SINHA: Will the 
Government be pleased to lay on the table a statement stating: 

(a) the various Imperial Services existing in the country ; 

(b) the percentage of appointments held in these services by Indians 

and non-Indians in the years 1921 and 1925; 

(c) which of these Imperial Services arc to be provincialised in 

accordance with the recommendations of the Lee Commission 
and what steps have the Government of India taken to pro- 
vincialise these departments? 

(<7) Will the Government be pleased to state, province by province, 
in respect of the Indian Civil and the Indian Police Services, 
how many years it will take to reach the minimum 
50 per cent, of Indians in those services, and what steps 
they have taken to work up to these percentages? 

TIIK HONOURABLE MR. J. CRERAR : (a) and (b). The necessary informa- 
tion in respect of the year 1921 is given in the statement printed on page 
204 (a) of the Legislative Assembly Debates. A similar statement in 
respect of the year 1924 will be 'found on pages 2179-2183 of those 
Debates. The collection of the necessary material entails considerable 
time and labour and I hope the information furnished will meet the 
Honourable Member's requirements. 

(c) The following services are to be provincialised : 

The Indian Educational Service. 

The Indian Agricultural Service. 

The Indian Veterinary Service. 

The Indian Forest Service in Bombay and Burma. 

The portion of the cadre of the Indian Service of Engineers working 
in the Buildings and Roads Branch, on the basis proposed in 
paragraph 40 of the Lee Commission's Report. 

Draft rules to give effect to the arrangements are under the considera- 
tion of the Secrotarv of State in Council. 



QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS. 



15 



(d) It is anticipated that the proportion will be reached approximately 
in the case of the Indian Civil Service in 15 years and in the case of the 
Indian Police Service in 25 years. 

I am unable to make any detailed forecast of the results in each 
province separately, but would refer the Honourable Member to the answer 
given on the 25th August, 1925, to Khan Bahadur Ghulam Bari's question 
No. 4 in the Legislative Assembly. 

NUMBER OF SUPERIOR POSTS IN THE GOVERNMENT OF INDIA 
SECRETARIAT HELD BY INDIANS ON THE IST JANUARY, 1921, AND 
THE IST JANUARY, 1926. 

11. THE HONOURABLE BABU ANUGIUHA NARAYAN SINHA: (a) Will 
the Government be pleased to lay on the table a comparative statement 
showing the total number of departmental Secretaries, Under- Secretaries, 
Deputy Secretaries and Assistant Secretaries working in the Government 
of India on the 1st of January, 1921, and on the 1st of January, 1926? 

(b) How many of these posts, under each head, were held by Indians 
in 1921 and how many on the 1st of January, 1926? 

THE HONOURABLE MR. J. CliERAll : I Jay on the table a statement 
giving the information required. 



Statement show it) ff the number of superior posts in the. G-orffument of India Secretariat field 
ly Indians un 1st January, 1921 tint! 1st January, 1926. 



],ST JANUAKY, 1921. IST JANI-AUY, 1920. 



Appointments 


Total. 


i HEMARKS. 

Indian*. Total. Indians. 

1 ; 


Secretaries . 


14 


1 | 14 


Joint Secretaries , 


2 


3 1 


Deputy Secretaries 
Under Secretaries 


20 

8 


1 ! 24 . G 
1 ( J0(a) 7 


Assistant Secretaries 
Total 


2 


1 ! 22(ft) ! 15 


G6 


, i 
7 ' 73 29 



t. Appointments of Additional Deputy Secretaries and Under Secretaries have been 
included among Deputy Secretaries and Under Secretaries. 

(a) One appointment of Under Secretary in the Department of /Education, Health and 
Lands, was held in abeyance. 

(i) Two appointments of "Assistant Secretaries in the Department o Education, Health 
and Lands were temporary lasting from 23rd November, 1925, to 19th January, 1926. 



16 COUNCIL OP STATE. [10TH FEB. 1926. 

r 

GRANT OF PRKVK&EXCE TO THE DOMINION OF CANADA. 

12, THE HONOURABLE BABU ANUGKAHA NAKAYAN SINHA : (a) Has 
the attention of the Government of India been drawn to the following 
statement by the (London) Financial News : 

" Efforts to expand Canada's foreign trade may result in the opening 
of negotiations in the near future with the Government of 
India. It is considered that the grant of minor concessions by 
Canada may result in substantial benefits to Canadian trade. 
Up to the outbreak of war India maintained a tariff of 5 per 
cent. In 1916, this was raised to 7 per cent., while in 1922, a 
tax of 30 per cent, was placed on automobiles, which are now 
the chief Canadian export in India. In view of this it is considered 
in Canada that the Dominion should receive more substantial 
preference." 

(b) If the answer be in the affirmative, will the Government be pleased 
to state if any negotiations have taken place between them .and the Govern- 
ment of Canada; and if they propose to take the Central Legislature into 
their confidence as to the nature of these negotiations? 

THE HOXOUHAIJLK MK. 0. T. CHADWICK: (a) Government have 
seen the extract quoted. 

(b) No such negotiations have taken place. 

ANTI-ASIATIC LEGISLATION IN Sorrn AFRICA. 

13. THE HO.NOUKAIILK BABU ANUGKAHA NAKAYAN SINHA: (a) Will 
the Government be pleased to state if their attention has been drawn to 
the resolutions adopted at the recent sessions of the Indian National 
Congress, the Liberal Federation and the Moslem League on the present 
position of Indians in South Africa? 

(b) Has their attention been drawn to the refusal of the Union Govern- 
ment of South Africa to agree to any scheme of a Bound Table Conference 
for a settlement of the Indian problem? 

(c) Has the attention of the Government been drawn to recent cables 
from Mr. Andrews depicting the seriousness of the situation and stating 
that the anti-Asiatic Bill is to be proceeded with and passed practically 
without any opposition? 

(d) If the answers to these questions be in the affirmative, will they be 
pleased to enlighten the Council on the steps they have taken : 

(i) to secure a postponement of the impending Bill in South 

Africa; 

(ii) to urge upon His Majesty's Government the intensity of Indian 
feeling and a veto of the measure if it be enacted into an 
Act; and 
(iii) if neither of these be of any avail, to see that Indians are not 

deprived of their just rights as subjects of the Empire? 
THE HOXOUHARLE Sm MUHAMMAD HABIBULLAH: (a) to (c). The 
reply is in the affirmative'. 

(d) The attention of the Honourable Member is invited to the state- 
ments on this subject made by His Excellency the* Viceroy in openmg the 



QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS. 1? 

Session of the Legislative Assembly on the 20th January last and the 
current Session of this Chamber. 

THE COMMONWEALTH OF INDIA BILL. 

14. THE HONOURABLE 13 ABU ANUOKAHA NABAYAN S1NHA : Will the 
Government be pleased to state if they have been consulted by the Secre- 
tary of State on the Commonwealth of India Bill either before or after 
its introduction in the House of Commons? If so, will they be pleased 
to lay on the table copies of the correspondence on the subject including 
their own reply, if any, to the Secretary of State? 

THE HONOURABLE Mn. J. CRERAR : The reply to the first part of the 
Honourable Member's question is in the negative. The second part 
therefore does not arise. 

RATIFICATION BY THE JAPANESE GOVERNMENT OF THE CONVENTIONS OF 
THE INTERNATIONAL LvBoru CONFERENCE. 

15. TIIK HONOURABLE RAI BAHADUR LALA RAM SARAN DAS : Is it a 
fact that the Japanese Government has not ratified the conventions and 
recommendations passed by the International Labour Conference? 

THE HONOURABLE MR. A. H. LEV: Japan has ratified of the 17 
Conventions approved at the International Labour Conferences up to the 
end of 1024. Recommendations are not capable of ratification. 

RESOLUTION RE RUPEE TENDERS. 

16. THE HONOURABLE MAI BAHADUR. LALA RAM SARAN DAS: Will 
Government be pleased to inform the Council of any action they may havo 
taken or contemplate taking on the Resolution moved by Mr. Jinnah on the 
14th February, 1924, and accepted by the other House regarding the inviting 
of tenders in this country and in rupees? 

THE HONOURABLE MR. A. H. LEY : The Government of India have 
thought it desirable to examine in the first instance the question to what 
classes of stores the rupee tender purchase system could be applied with- 
out undue sacrifice of economy and without . incurring undue risk of un- 
satisfactory supplies. This has necessarily involved detailed discussion 
with the various purchasing and consuming departments of Government, 
but I am able to say that these discussions have now got so far that a 
list of the different kinds of stores to which the system might be extended 
without undue risk has been compiled and is now under examination. 

REDACTION on RAILWAY FREIGHTS ox COAL. 

17. THE HONOURABLE RAI BAHADUR LALA RAM SARAN DAS: Will 
Government kindly state what action they have taken or intend to take 
on my Resolution, which was adopted by this House on 15th September, 
1925, regarding a decrease in the rate of coal railway freight for long dis- 
tances ? 

THE HONOURABLE MR. D. T. CHAD WICK: The matter has been con- 
sidered in consultation with the Indian Railway Conference Association, 
but I am not prepared to make any statement "at this stage. 



18 COUNCIL OF STATE. [10TH FEB. 1926. 

IMPOIITS OF ARTIMCIAL GHI. 

18. THE HONOURABLE RAI BAHADUR LALA RAM SARAN DAS: Will 
the Government kindly state what has been the quantity and value of 
"Vegetable Product" and other artificial ghi imported into the country 
during each of the last five years? Will they also state what has been the 
revenue derived by Government from the customs duties levied on these 
vegetable products? 

THE HONOURABLE MR. p. T. CHAD WICK: The Government have not 
the information as statistics arc not separately recorded. 

RECRUITMENT or TRAFFIC INSPECTORS (TRANSPORTATION/ ON THE NORTH 

WESTERN RAILWAY. 

19. THE HONOURABLE RAI BAHADUR LALA HAM SAliAN DAS: Will 
the Government kindly state whether they have taken or contemplate taking 
any action on my Resolution, adopted on 28th February, 1923, by the 
Council of State, regarding recruitment of Traffic Inspectors (Transporta- 
tion) on the North Western Railway ? 

INDIAN TRAFFIC INPSECTORS (TRANSPORTATION) ox THE NORTH WESTERN 

RAILWAY. 

20. THE HONOURABLE RAT BAHADUR LALA RAM SARAN DAS: Will 
the Government kindly state how many Indians have been appointed (a) 
permanently; and (b) on probation as Traffic Inspectors (Transportation) 
from 1st April, 1923, up to the 31st December, 1925? Will they also kindly 
state how many of these have during this period retired, and how many 
are still in service? Will they also state how many Indians arc at present 
working in officiating appointments, together with the dates from which they 
are so working? 

THE HONOURABLE MR. D. T. CHADWICK: I propose to reply to 
questions Nos. 10 and 20 together. A a was pointed out in reply to question 
No. 572, asked on the 2nd September, 1925, in the Legislative Assembly 
railway administrations have been especially addressed on the subject and 
they will no doubt give it their careful consideration when vacancies occur, 
and if Indians with the requisite qualifications are available. 

Government have not got any information beyond that furnished in 
the "Legislative Assembly in their reply to question No. 853 put by KEan 
Bahadur Sarfaraz Hussain Khan on the 17th of March, 1924, nor do they 
consider that it will serve any useful purpose to call for further informa- 
tion of this pircemea.1 character after so short an interval of time. 

SELECTION OF STATION MASTERS AS TRAFFIC INSPECTORS (TRANSPOR- 
TATION) ON THE NORTH WESTERN RAILWAY. 

21. THE HONOURABLE RAI BAHADUR LALA RAM SARAN DAS: (a) 
Is it a fact that some time back some station masters! on the North Western 
Railway were, after some examination, selected for trial as Traffic Inspec- 
tors (Transportation)? Will the Government kindly state how many 
station masters were thus selected? How many of them are now officiat- 
ing and how many have reverted? 

(b) Will the Government kindly state what was the length of service 
and grade of each of the Indian station masters so selected? 



QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS. 10 

THE HONOURABLE MR. D. T. CHADWICK: Government have no in- 
formation but will make inquiries. 

APPOINTMENTS op EUROPEANS AND ANGLO-INDIANS AS TRAFFIC INSPECTORS 
(TRANSPORTATION) ON THE NORTH WESTERN RAILWAY. 

22. THE HONOURABLE BAI BAHADUR LALA BAM SABAN DAS : Will 
the Government kindly state how many (a) Europeans and (b) Anglo- 
Indians have been appointed as Traffic Inspectors (Transportation) on the- 
North Western Bailway from 1st April 1923 to 31st December 1925, by 
(i) direct recruitment and (ii) promotion? What have been tho length of 
service, grade and qualifications of each of them? 

THE HONOURABLE MR. D. T. CHADWICK: The Honourable Member 
is referred to the reply just given by me .to questions Nos. 19 and 20. 

MEMORIAL TO THE CHIEF MECHANICAL ENGINEER, NORTH WESTERN 
HAILWAY, FROM THE INDIAN LITERATE APPRENTICES. 

23. THE HONOURABLE BAI BAHADUR LALA BAM SABAN DAS : Will 
the Government kindly state what decision they have now arrived at in 
connection with the memorial to the Chief Mechanical Engineer, North 
Western Bailway, Lahore, from the Indian literate apprentices? 

THE HONOURABLE MR. D. T. CHADWICK: The case has not been' 
referred to Government and they have no information. 

THE HONOURABLE lUi BAHADUR LALA HAM SABAN DAS: Last time 
when I put this question, as far as I remember, the reply given was that the 
matter was under consideration. If it was under consideration then, has 
no decision been arrived at yet? 

THE HONOURABLE MR. D. T. CHADWICK: It was under consideration 
by the officer to whom the memorial was sent. No memorial was sent 
to Government. An unsigned copy of a printed one was sent but it was 
not addressed to Government. 

ENLISTMENT IN THE INDIAN ARMY OP HINDU JATS FROM THE 
JULLUNDl'R AND LAHORE DIVISIONS. 

24. THE HONOURABLE BAI BAHADUR LALA BAM SABAN DAS: 
Is it a fact that in the Jullundur and Lahore Divisions of the Punjab the 
Hindu Jats can get enlistment in the Indian Army only with great difficulty ? 

THE HONOURABLE MR. A. H. LEY : (on behalf of His Excellency the 
Commander- in- Chief) : Hindu Jats from the Jullundur and Lahore Divisions 
ore eligible for service in the Indian Army. It is, however, a fact that, 
apart from those who are Dogras, Hindu Jats are not taken into the 
Army in large numbers from these jbwo civil divisions. 

NUMBER OF HINDU, SIKH AND MUSLIM JATS IN THE INDIAN ARMY. 

25. THE HONOURABLE BAI BAHADUR LALA BAM SABAN DAS : 
Will the Government kindly state what is the number at present in the 
Indian Army of Hindu Jats, Sikh Jats and Muslim Jats, recruited from? 
Amhala Division, and from districts in the Jullundur and Lahore Divisions? 



-20 



COUNCIL OF STATE. 



[10TH FEU. 1920. 



Is this number of recruits in the Indian Army, from the different sections 
of the Jat community in proportion to their respective populations? 

THE HONOURABLE Mu. A. H. LEY (on behalf of His Excellency the 
-Commander-in-Chief) : The information desired by the Honourable Member 
in the first part of this question is not available, as our statistics do not 
show the numbers recruited by districts or divisions but by provinces. 
With regard to the second part, 1 may state that the extent to which the 
different castes and classes are enlisted in the Indian Army depends more 
on their suitability for service as soldiers, than on their total numbers. 

NUMBER or PUNJABI HINDUS IN THE INDIAN ARMY. 

26. THE HONOURABLE lUi BAHADUR LALA EAM SARAN DAS: 
Will the Government kindly lay on the table a statement showing the 
number of soldiers in the Indian Army, recruited from each of the Hindu 
* castes and tribes in each district of the Punjab? 

THE HONOURABLE MR. A. H. LEY (on behalf of His Excellency the 
Comrnander-in-Chief) : I regret that I am unable to furnish the Honourable 
Member with the information which he desires, since as 1 have just stated 
in reply to the previous question, our recruiting statistics .arc not compiled 
to show the classes and castes by districts but by provinces as a whole: 
I lay on the table, however, a statement showing the total number of 
the various Hindu castes and tribes (other than Sikhs) serving in the 
Indian Army on the 1st January 1925, from the whole of the Punjab 
Province and I trust that this information will suffice for the Honourable 
Member's purpose. 



Statement showing the number of various Hindu castes and tribes other than Sikhs) 
from the Punjab xcrciny in the Indian Army on the 1st January, 1925. 

fBrahmaiiH ..... 691 

] Rajputs 8,191 

' 1 Jats 739 

v. Other castes of Dogvas . . . 793 



10,4U 



Other Punjabi. Hindus. 



Brahman* 
Rajputs 
Jatu . 
Ahirs 
Gujars 



GBAND TOTAL 




RECRUITMENT oi' MVHYAL BRAHMANS or THE RAWALPINDI DIVISION 
von THE INDIAN ARM\. 

27. THE HONOURABLE RAI BAHADUR LALA EAM SARAN DAS: 
Is it a fact that in the Rawalpindi Division for some time past the 
Muhyal Brahmans cannot now get enlistment in the Army? Will the 
Government kindly state why this is so? 



QUESTIONS AND ANSWER*. 1 

THE HONOURABLE MR. A. H. LEY (on behalf of His Excellency the 
Commander-in-Chief) : The answer to the first part of the question is in 
the negative. The second part does not arise. The Honourable Member 
will be interested to learn that there are now more than half as many 
more Muhyal Brahmans serving in the Indian Army than was the case 
before the war. 

RECRUITMENT OF PUNJABI HINDI: REGIMENTS FOR THE INDI\N ARMY. 

28. THE HONOURABLE lUi BAHADUR LALA EAM SAUAN DAS: 
Is it a fact that in the Indian Army raised from the Punjab, we have 
regiments known under the names of *' Punjabi Musalmans " and 

Sikhs "- 1 Is it a fact that in the regiments: known as the " Punjabi 
Musalmans ", there arc usually recruits from several Muslim castes and 
tribes, and similarly in the " Sikh " regiments there are recruits from 
several Sikh castes and tribes? Is it nlso a fact that there is in the Indian 
Army raised from the. Punjab no regiment known under the name of 
" Punjabi Hindus ", smd consequently Hindu Jats in the Jullundur and 
Lahore Divisions, Muhyal Brahmnns and Hindu Khattris in the Rawalpindi, 
Lahore and Jullundur Divisions, and several other Hindu fighting classes 
in different parts of the province cannot get enlistment in the Indian 
Army? Will the Government kindly state why no " Punjabi Hindu " 
regiments as such are raised in the Punjab ? 

THE HONOURABLE MR. A. H. LEY (on behalf of His Excellency the 
Commander-in-Chief) : There is no regiment known under the name of 
"Punjabi Mussulmans". There is one regiment known as Sikhs, namely, 
the llth Sikhs, but only three of its battalions are composed exclusively 
of Sikhs. : 

Government do not propose to raise a "Punjabi Hindu" regiment as such. 

REBATES IN RAILWAY FREIGHT ON COAL BOOKKD TO CALCUTTA FOR 

EXPORT. 

29. THE HONOURABLE BAI BAHADUR LALA RAM SARAN DAS: 
Will the Government kindly state the total weight and the total amount 
of rebates allowed in railway freight by railways on coal booked to Calcutta 
for export during 1924-25 and up to 31st December, 1925? 

THE HONOURABLE MR. D. T. CHADWICK : The total weight and the 
total amount of rebate were as follows: 

Weight. Amount. 
Tons. Rs. 

During 1924-25 .... 12,00,000 12,00,000 

From April 1925 to December 1925. *10,82,OQO 10,24,000 

NUMBER or MAZHBI SIKHS IN THE INDIAN ARMY. 

30. THE HONOURABLE RAI BAHADUR LALA EAM SARAN DAS: 
Will the Government kindly state how many Mazhbi Sikhs there are in 
the Indian Army? Is it a fact that almost all these Mazhbi Sikhs come 
originally from among the caste of Chuhras? If so, will they state why 
Government do not recruit from among the Hindu Chuhras? 

* Thin does not include figures for part of November and December 1926 for the Bengal- 
Nagpur Railway, which have not yet been received. 



22 COUNCIL OF STATE. [10TH FEB. 1926. 

THE HONOURABLE MB. A. H. LEY (on behalf of His Excellency the 

Commander-in-Chief) : The answer to the first part' of this question is that 

1,584 Mazhbi Sikhs are serving in the Indian Army. With regard to the 

second part, these Sikhs originally came and a few still come from the 

'Chuhra caste. But, on the other hand, the majority of this class now 

serving in the Army are the descendants of; Mazhbi Sikhs who originally 

may have been Chuhras, but .who had long since given up the duties of 

domestic sweepers. 

In view of the reply which I have just given, the third part of the 
question does not arise. 



TllANBFKIt O* 1 THE MANAGEMENT OK THE DfiRA ISMAIL 

DECAUVILLE RAILWAY TO THE NORTH WESTERN RAILWAY. 

31. THE HONOURABLE RAI BAHADUR LALA HAM SABAN DAS: 
Will the Government kindly state whether the narrow gauge light railway, 
between Dera Ismail Khan and Tank, is still under the control and manage- 
ment of the Military Department? If the management of the railway has 
been transferred to the North Western Bailway, will they kindly state since 
when has this been done, and on what conditions has this transfer been 
made? 

THE HOXOURABLU Mu. D. T. CHAD WICK : The management of the 
Dera. Ismail Khan-Tank Decauville Bailway has been transferred to the 
North Western Bailway, with effect from the 1st April 1925. The terms 
of the transfer are that the llailway Department acquires the line at 
present value and works it as part of the strategic lines of the North 
Western Bailway system. 

ArNNUAL LOS* OX THE DERA IsMAlL KH AX-TANK 

RAILWAY. 



32. THE HONOURABLE lUi BAHADUR LALA EAM SAHAN DAS: 
Will the Government kindly state what is the annual deficit in running 
this narrow-gauge light railway between Dera Ismail Khan and Tank? 
Will they also state which department is debited with this annual deficit 
the Military Department or the Bailway Department? 

THE HONOURABLE MR. D. T. CHADW1CK : As entirely separate accounts 
of the working of the line were not maintained when it was under the 
administration of the Military Department, no accurate figure of the 
annual loss of working is available. But it is estimated that the present 
annual loss, including provision for interest on capital expenditure, will 
amount approximately to Ks. 1 lakhs. The question of improving the 
financial position of the line ia, however, receiving -attention. The loss 
in working the line will Appear in the railway accounts as part of the 
loss on working of strategic railways which, under the terms of the Conven- 
tion for the separation of Bailway from General Finance, is borne by 
< General revenues. 

DISMANTLING OF THE DERA ISMAIL KHAN-TANK DECAUVILLK 

RAILWAY. 

33. THE HONOURABLE EAI BAHADUR LALA EAM SAB AN DAS : 
Will the Government kindly state whether it is under contemplation to 
dismantle this light railway? 



QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS. - 23 

THE HONOURABLE MR. D. T. CHAD^WICK: There is no present intention 
tot dismantling the line with the idea of abandoning it. 

SURVEY OF RAILWAY LINES FROM HINDUBAGH TO FORT SANDEMAN AND 
' FROM FORT SANDKMAN TO TANK. 

34. THE HONOURABLE lUi BAHADUR LALA HAM SARAN DAS,: Will 
the Government kindly state whether it is under contemplation to make 
-a survey of a railway line from Hindubagh to Fort Sandeman in Baluchistan, 
.and to make another survey of a railway line from Fort Sandeman across 
ihe Gomal River to Tank in the Dora Ismail Khan district? Has the 

sanction of the survey of these railway lines been received? If so, how far 
.have the survey operations progressed? When can the commencement of 

the construction of these lines be expected? 

THE HONOURABLE MR. D. T. CHADW1CK: The Hindubagh- Fort 
Saudeman Railway survey has recently .been completed. A proposal to 
^auction the construction of the first section from Hindubagh to Kila 
Saifullah is under consideration, and it is expected that a decision will be 
arrived at very shortly. The Tank-Dera Ismail Khan-Fjort Sandeman 
section of the Zhob Valley Railway was surveyed in 1913-14. The estimat- 
ed cost of the line, based on the results of the survey, proved to be 
disproportionate to the resulting advantages and the construction of the 
'line was, therefore, held in abeyance. Government do not contemplate 
faking up this project at present. 

CONSTRUCTION OF NEW RAILWAY LINES AND ROADS ix THK FRONTIER. 

35. THE HONOURABLE RAI BAHADUR LALA RAM SARAN DAS: Will 
-the Government kindly state what new railway lines and new metalled 

and unmet ailed roads are projected in the Frontier? What is the total 
mileage to-day in the trans-border area of mat-ailed and unmetalled roads? 

THE HONOURABLE MR. J. P. THOMPSON: Government regret that they 
.-are unable to make, a statement regarding roads and railways projected 
.in the Frontier as it would not be in the public interest to do so. 

The approximate mileage of metalled roads in the trans-border area is 
280, but no figure can be given as to the total length of unmetalled roads 
in view of the vagueness of the term, which would presumably include 
mountain tracks made by the tribesmen themselves, 

NrMBEU OF SENIOR STATION MASTEUS ON THE NOHTH WESTEHV 

RAILWAY. 

36. THE HONOURABLE RAI BAHADUR LALA RAM SARAN DAS : Will 
xthe Government kindly state what is the number of senior grade station 
-masters, carrying a salary of Rs. 250, or more, on the North Western Rail- 
way? How many of these station masters are Europeans, Anglo-Indians 
and Indians? What increase in the number of Indians in the grades of 
station masters has been mado during each of the last five years ending 

-31st December, 1925? 

THE HONOURABLE MR. D. T. CHAD WICK: The names of station 

masters drawing Rs. 250 and over are given in the Railway Board's 

^Classified List of Establishment, the latest copy of which is available in 



24 COUNCIL OF STATE. [.1T)TH FEB. 1926. 

the Members' Library. The Honourable Member is also referred to page 
65 of the Eeport of the Railway Board for 1924-25 in which statistics are 
furnished showing the distribution of the number of railway employees 
amongst the several communities, both on the 3 old State Railways and 
on other Class I lines excluding those belonging to Indian States. 

PROSPECTS OF LJTKHATE APPRENTICES ON THE NORTH WESTERN RAILWAY, 

ETC. 

37. THE HONOURABLE EAT BAHADUR LALA "RAM SAEAN DAS: Will 
Government kindly state what are the. prospects of literate apprentices' on 
the North Western Eailway ? Will they also state what are the qualifica- 
tions required from candidates for the posts of journeymen? 

TIIK HoNorrt.AHLio MR. D. T. CHAD WICK: I regret Government have 
110 information. Inquiry is being made from the Agent, North Western 
Eailway, and the Honourable Member will be informed of the results of 
the inquiry. 

NUMBER OP FORRMEN, CHARGEMEN AND JOURNEYMEN EMPLOYED ON 
THE NORTH WKSTKR.N RAILWAY. 

38. THE HONOURABLE MAI BAHADUR LALA HAM SAEAN DAS: Will 
the Government kindly state what is the total number of (a) Foremen, (b) 
Chargemen, and (c) Journeymen employed in the LoSo, Carriage and 
Electric Shops of the North Western Eailway ? How many of these arc 
Indians, Anglo-Indians and Europeans? How many of these have been 
recruited (a) in England, and (b) in India, during each of the last five years 
on covenant? What are the qualifications and rules for recruitment for 
each of such posts, and what steps are Government taking to increase the 
number of Indians in these appointments? 

THE HoNorRAHLK MR. D. T. CHADWICK: Government have not the 
information exactly in the detailed form asked for. But the Honourable 
Member's attention is invited to Chapter V and Appendix G on page i08 
of Vol. I of the Eeport on Indian Eailways for 1924-25, to which I have 
just alluded, and to the Eailway Board's Classified List, copies of which 
publications are in the Library. 

LIGHTING ov ROADSIDE STATIONS ox THE NORTH WESTERN RAILWAY. 

39. THE HONOURABLE EAI BAHADUR LALA EAM SAEAN DAS : Will 
the Government kindly state what steps they are taking to improve the 
arrangements for lighting the roadside stations of the North Western 
Eailway? 

THE HONOURABLE MR. D. T. CHADWICK: Government are not aware 
what arrangements require improvement, and I suggest that the matter 
is one which, can suitably be brought to the notice of the Agent through 
his Local Advisory Committee. 

REDUCTION OF PARES ON THE NORTH WESTERN RAILWAY. 

40. THE HONOURABLE EAI BAHADUR LALA EAM SAEAN DAS: With 
reference to the recent notification of the North Western Eailway regard- 
ing reduction in railway fares, will the Government state why a flat rate 



QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS. 25 > 

of 3 pies per mile for third class passengers has not heen adopted for all 
distances on the railway and why the railway have decided in favour of 
3J pies per mile up to a distance of 50 miles? Will the Government kindly 
state what difference in income would it make to the railway if 3 pies 
instead of 3J pies were charged up to a distance of 50 miles? 

THE HONOURABLE MR. D. T. CHADWICK: The reduction in third class 
fares which is being made on the North Western Kailway is estimated to 
cost 20J lakhs. A reduction to 3 pies for the first 50 miles would cost an 
additional 34 lakhs, and it is considered unlikely that such a reduction 
would stimulate traffic to an extent sufficient to recoup the loss, 

CONSTFU'CTION OF NEW RAILWAY LlNES IN THE PlJNJAB. 

41. THE HONOURABLE RAI BAHADUR LALA BAM SARAN DAS: Will 
the Government kindly state what new railway lines are to be constructed 
in the Punjab this year? What is their gauge, mileage and estimated 
cost? 

THE HONOURABLE MR. D. T. CHADWICK: The construction of the 
following new railway lines in the Punjab will it is hoped bo commenced 
this year : 



Kailway. 


Gauge. 


Length. 


Estimated cost. 








Rs. 


1. The Kangra Valley Kailway 
2. The Shnhdara Narowal Kailway . 
3. The Amritsar Narowal Kailway 
4.* The Sirhind Kupar Railway 


2' 6" 
5' 6" 
5' 6" 
5' 6" 


101 miles. 
49 

40 
30 


1,34,00,000 
28,00,000 
59,87,968 
38,00,000 



Items (1) and (2) have been sanctioned and work is being put in hand. 
Items (3) and (4) will probably be sanctioned shortly. 
Government have under investigation several other proposed lines, 
namely : 

Bhiwani Eohtak. 

Jagadhari Thaneswar. 

Montgomery Pakpatan-McLeodgunj . 

Sangia Hill Khushab. 

Eohtak Gohana Panipat. 

and, should, as a result of such investigation, any of them be considered 
financially justifiable, their construction will be sanctioned. 

ABANDONMENT OF LAND UNDER CULTIVATION BY CANAL WATER OWING 
TO THE ACCUMULATION OP HEAVY ALKALINE DEPOSITS. 

42. THE HONOURABLE SIR DINSHAW WACHA: Will the Government 
be pleased to state : 

(a) what lands under cultivation by canal water in different parts 
of the country have already been, or are likely to be, aban- 
doned by reason of accumulation of heavy alkaline deposits;. 

(6) what is the percentage of the area which such abandoned 
' lands bear to the Uotal area of land under cultivation by canal 

i water; and 



26 COUNCIL OF STATE. [10TH FEB. 1926. 

j[c) what measures have the Government taken, and what measures 
do they propose to take, in order that other lands under 
cultivation by canal water may not be similarly abandoned 
In future by reason of the formation and accumulation of 
alkaline deposits? 

THE HONOURABLE Mu. A. H. LEY : The information available with the 
Government of India is insufficient to enable a full reply to be framed at 
present but I am asking Local Governments for reports and, on their 
receipt, will lay a reply on the table. 

THAIXTXG or STUDENTS IN STATE AGiacri/ruiiAT, COLLEGES IN METHODS 

FOR THE PREVENTION OF ALKALINE DEPOSITS ON LANDS 1'NDER 

CULTIVATION BY CANAL WATEK. 

43. THE HONOURABLE Sm DINSHAW WACHA: Will the Govern- 
ment be ipleased to state whether the State Agricultural Colleges have 
in their syllabus any course of lectures on the subject of the formation of 
alkaline deposits on lands under cultivation in this country by canal water? 
Are the post-graduates nnd students trained in the practical methods by 
which such deposits may be prevented? If not, do the Government pro- 
pose to instruct the Colleges so to train the students? 

THE HONOURABLE SIR MUHAMMAD HABIBULLAH: Though the 
'Subject is not specifically mentioned in the syllabus of studies of the 
Agricultural Colleges, it comes under the heading of soils and their treat- 
ment a subject which forms part of the general curriculum of these 
colleges. In provinces where the question is acute, it forms part of a 
special study both in the laboratory and in the field. In the Punjab, 
for instance, a special station has been established on the Lower Bari 
J}'oud Colony for investigating and carrying out experiments in the 
reclamation of salt lands. 

LAND MORTGAGE BANKS. 

44. THE HONOURABLE SIR DINSHAW WACHA: Will the terms 
of reference to the Agricultural Commission recently announced include the 
desirability or otherwise of establishing Land Mortgage Banks to finance 
the existing Co-operative Agricultural Societies for the purpose of afford- 
ing a certain measure of relief to indebted agriculturists? 

THE HONOURABLE SIR MUHAMMAD HABIBULLAH : The -answer is 
in the affirmative. 

THE HONOURABLE BAG SAHIB DR. U. RAMA EAO : May I know whether 
copies of the terms of reference to the Agricultural Commission are avail- 
able to Members of this House ? 

THE HONOURABLE SIR MUHAMMAD HABIBULLAH : Yes. 

FAILURE OP THE JAPANESE GOVERNMENT TO GIVE LEGISLATIVE EFFECT 
TO CERTAIN RESOLUTIONS OF THE GENEVA LABOUR CONFERENCE. 

45. THE HONOURABLE Sin DINSHAW WACHA : Have the Japanese 
Government failed hitherto to give legislative effect to certain resolutions 
of the Geneva Labour Conference, passed some time since, regarding 



QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS, 27 

shorter hours of labour, non- employment of children and women at night 
and other kindred matters; if so, do Government propose- drawing the 
attention of the coming Labour Conference to this failure? 

THE HONOURABLE MR. A. H. LEY : The Honourable Member is presum- 
ably referring to the draft Conventions adopted at the first session of the 
International Labour Conference held at Washington in 1919, relating to 
hours of work, night- work for women, and night-work for young persons. 
As considerable misapprehension appears to exist on the subject of these 
Conventions and the obligations involved in them, I am glad to have this 
opportunity of explaining the position. No 'country is obliged to enforce 
any draft Convention adopted by an International Labour Conference unless 
and until it has ratified that Convention, and the question whether a Con- 
vention shall or shall not be ratified is a matter for the authorities within 
-the country to decide. Should the competent authority decide that tho 
Convention shall not be ratified, no legal obligation rests on that country to 
.secure the enforcement of the Convention. If a member fails to secure 
ihe effective observance of any Convention which it has ratified, any other 
member ratifying that Convention is entitled to file a complaint with the 
International Labour Office under Article 411 of tho Treaty of Versailles. 
As however Japan has not ratified any of the Conventions to which I have 
referred, no question of such a complaint can arise. 

SIR FREDERICK WHYTF/S T>OOK ox FEDERAL CONSTITUTIONS. 

40. THE HONOURABLE RAO SAHIB DR. U. KAMA RAO : Will the Gov- 
ernment of India be pleased to state : 

(a) tho terms of reference on which Sir Frederick Whyte was deputed 

on his mission; 

(b) the total expenses incurred in this behalf; and 

(c) the action Government propose to take on his report? 

THE HONOURABLE MR. J. CRERAR : (a) There were no terms of refer- 
ence to Sir Frederick Whyte. 

(b) The total gross cost involved is approximately Rs. 12,000. We shall 
not know the net cost until we know how many copies are sold. 

(c) The purpose of the publication was to provide material for the study 
of Indian Constitutional Reforms. It was thought that, as similar ques- 
tions may call for settlement in India in the future a statement in a readily 

available form of tho relations subsisting between Central and Local Gov- 
ernments in the principal federal constitutions of the world would be valu- 
able to public men in India. 

TREATMENT OF BJLNGALT STATE PRISONERS IN JAILS IN THE MADRAS 

PRESIDENCY. 

47. THE HONOURABLE RAO SAHIB DR. U. RAMA RAO : Will the Gov- 
ernment of India be pleased to state : 

(a) whether in all the jails in Bengal and in Burma, State prisoners 

were accommodated in big halls and whether in the jails in 
the Madras Presidency to which some of them have recently 
been transferred, they are confined in punishment cells; 

(b) whether out-door games, such as tennis, badminton, football 

and indoor games were provided in the Bengal and Burma 

B 2 



gg COUNCIL , OF STATE. [10TH FEB. 1925. 

jails and whether no such provision has been made in the 
Madras jails; 

(c) whether the food of these State prisoners is prepared by the? 

ordinary convicts in the Madras jails and whether they are- 
unaccustomed to the Madras food ; 

(d) whether the privilege of being supplied with books has been 

denied to them in the Madras jails; and 

(e) whether their privileges in the matter of writing three letters 

every week has Hbeen restricted to two, if to their relatives, 
and to one, if to their friends? 

THE HONOURABLE MR. J. CRERAR: I invite attention to the reply 
which I have already given to the Honourable Member's question No. 4. 
I need only add that State prisoners detained in the Madras Presidency are- 
given a diet allowance, subject to a maximum of Rs. 2 per day, according 
to the scale in force in Bengal ; they are allowed to prepare their own menu 
and to supervise the cooking of dishes. As regards games, books and letter- 
writing they are afforded the same facilities as they enjoyed prior to their 
transfer. 

ALLOWANCES OF STATE PRISONERS TRANSFERRED FROM BENGAL TO 

OTHER PROVINCES. 

48. THE HONOURABLE RAO SAHIB DR. U. RAMA RAO : Will the Gov- 
ernment of India be pleased to state : 

(a) whether their attention has been drawn to the statement made- 
by Sir Hugh Stephenson in the Bengal Council that, with 
the transfer of State prisoners to other provinces, the res- 
ponsibility of the Bengal Government to pay their allowances 
also automatically lapses; 

(6) whether it is on this condition that sanction has been accorded 
to. the transfer of the State prisoners to Madras jails; and 

(c) whether the Madras Government has undertaken the respon- 
sibility of meeting their allowances? 

THE HONOURABLE MR. J. CRERAR: I have seen the statement and 
understand the reference to allowances to be to the diet allowance. This 
allowance is fixed with regard to conditions obtaining in the place where- 
the detenu happens to be confined, and any proposal to enhance the rate 
must obviously be initiated by the local authorities concerned. All allow- 
ances for State prisoners are sanctioned by the Government of India and 
are debited to Central Revenues. 

SPEECH OF LORD LYTTON AT THE ROTARY CLUB ON THE REFORMATIVE 
TREATMENT OF CRIMINALS. 

49. THE HONOURABLE RAO SAHIB DR. U. RAMA RAO : Will the Gov- 
ernment of India be pleased to state: 

(a) whether their attention has been drawn to the speech of Lord 
Lytton at the Rotary Club on the reformative treatment of 
criminals; and 

(6) if so, what action they propose to take in the matter? 



QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS. &9 

THE HONOURABLE MR. J. CRERAR: (a) I have read the speech. 

(6) Government are much interested in all proposals for prison reform, 
but they note that the kind of work which His Excellency Lord Lytton was 
specially advocating was work for private philanthropy and enterprise, 
work which, in his own words, " No Government can do ". 

MOPLAH COLONISATION OF THE ANDAMANS. 

50. THE HONOURABLE KAO SAHIB DR. U. EAMA RAO: Will the Gov- 
ernment of India be pleased to state : 

(a) whether they have received the report of the Special Committee 

appointed to inquire into the fitness of the Andumans for 
Moplah colonisation; and 

(b) if so, whether they propose to place the report on the table 

of this House and to defer action thereon until this House has 

had its say on the matter? 

THE HONOURABLE MR. J. CRERAR : (a) and (b) I understand that the 
Honourable Member is referring to the visit, for which Government granted 
facilities, of four gentlemen to the Andamans to examine the conditions and 
circumstances of the Mappilla villages there. Government have received 
the views of one of these gentlemen but not of the others. They cannot, 
of course, arrive at any conclusions until the complete reports are in their 
possession. 

THK BAWLA MURDER CASE. 

51. THE HONOURABLE RAO SAHIB DR. U. RAMA RAO : Will the Gov- 
ernment of India be pleased to state, with reference to the reply given 
by Sir Alexander Muddiman to the interpellation put by Mr. Gaya Prasad 
Singh in the Legislative Assembly, on 21st January last, on the subject 
of the future course of action on the part of the Government in connection 
with the Bawla murder case, whether the matter is engaging the attention 
of the Government? 

THE HONOURABLE MR. J. CRERAR : Yes. 

OFFICIAL REPORT OF THE PROCEEDINGS. OF THE CONFERENCE or 
FINANCE MEMBERS. 

52. THE HONOURABLE MR. HAROON JAFFER: Will the Government 
"be pleased to state whether they intend to publish an official report of the 
proceedings of the conference of the Finance Members? 

THE HONOURABLE MR. A. C. McWATTERS : I would invite the Honour- 
able Member's attention to the reply given by me to a similar question by 
the Honourable Mr. Sethna on the 22nd January, 1925. For the reasons 
then given the Government do not propose to publish an official report of 
the proceedings. 



WELCOME TO MEMBERS BY THE HONOURABLE THE 

PRESIDENT. - 

. THE HONOURABLE THE PRESIDENT : Before proceeding with the further 
business of the day I am glad to take this early opportunity of welcoming 
Members of the second Council of State to the labours of its first Session. 
Those who heard the brief words of farewell which I addressed to the 
Members of the first Council at its last meeting a few months ago in Simla 



30 COUNCIL OF STATE. [10TH FEB. 1926- 

[The President.] 

will realize what a great pleasure it is to me to see so many former Members 
back to their old places in this House. The fact alone that there are so 
many familiar faces will be sufficient assurance to me that I may count on' 
the same support in maintaining the dignity and traditions of this House* 
as has always been accorded to the Chair in the past. But among the new 
Members there are several who are not new to parliamentary life. There- 
are several who have sat in other Legislative Assemblies and Councils, and 
I am glad also to add that among the new Members there are several who 
are old personal friends of mine. These facts combined lead me to appeal 
with confidence to the House to assist me in maintaining the traditions of 
the House. I feel quite sure that I shall have the assistance of all Hon- 
ourable Members in carrying on the work that has been done from this 
Chamber. I know that there can be no doubt that the decisions and 
deliberations of this House will receive the consideration from Government 
and from t.he country which they have always merited and received in the- 
past. 

MESSAGES FROM HIS EXCELLENCY THE GOVERNOK GENERAL. 

THE HONOURABLE THE PRESIDENT : I have two Messages for Honour- 
able Members from His Excellency the Governor General. 

(Tlic Messages were received by the Members of Council standing.) 
The first message reads : 

PANEL OF CHAIRMEN. 

11 lr\ jnirnutinrp of tht provisions of nub-section (2) of section fiS-A of the Govern- 
ment of India Act, 7, llufus Daniel, Earl of Readiny, hereby nominate, the 'following 
Members of the Council of State to be on the Panel of Chairmen of the said Council 
of State: 

In the first place, the Honourable Mr. Phiroze C'ursetji Sethna ; in the second? 
place, the Honourable San/id If a -a All; in the third iiJucc. the Honourable Sir S. R. M. 
Annamalfd Chettii/ar, and lastly, the Honourable Mr. John William Anderson Bell. 

(Sd.) HEADING, 
Viceroy and Governor General."' 

PRESENTATION AND DISCUSSION OF THE RAILWAY BVDGET IN THE 

COUNCIL or STATE. 
The second message reads : 

11 For the purpose of sab-section (1) of section G7A of the Government of India- 
Act and in pursuance of Rules Jfr3, $6 and Jfi of the Indian Legislative, 
Rules and of Standing Order 70 of the Council of State Standing . Orders, 
7, Rufus Daniel, Earl of Heading, hereby appoint the following days for 
the presentation to the Council of State and to the Legislative Assembly of 
the statement of the estimated annual expenditure and revenue of the Governor 
General in Council in respect of Railways and for the subsequent stages in respect 
thereof in the Council of State and in the Legislative Assembly, namely: 

Thursday, February 18th ... ... Presentation in both, Chambers. 

Saturday, February 20th ... ... General discussion in the Council of 

State. 
Monday, February 22nd ^.. ... General discussion in the Legislative 

'Assembly. 
Tuesday, February 23rd ... ... "V 

Wednesday, February 2fth ... ... f Voting of Demands for Grants in. 

Thursday \ February 25th . ... t7ie Legislative Assembly. 

Friday, February ZSih ... J 

(Sd.) HEADING, 
Viceroy and Governor General. 9 * 



COMMITTEE ON PETITIONS. 

THE HONOURABLE THE PRESIDENT : Under Standing Order 76 o the- 
Council of State Standing Orders I am required at the commencement of 
the Session to constitute a Committee on Petitions consisting of a. 
Chairman and four Members. The following Honourable Members have 
at my request kindly consented to preside over and serve on. the Committee. 
I hereby accordingly have much pleasure in nominating as Chairman of 
the Committee the Honourable Rai Bahadur Lala Ram Saran Das, and 
as Members the Honourable Raja Sir Rampal Singh, the Honourable 
Mr. V. Ramadas Pantulu, the Honourable Mr. Haroon Jaffer, and the 
Honourable Sir C. Sankarnn Nair. 



APPOINTMENT OF THE HONOURABLE MR. K. C. ROY TO THE 
LIBRARY COMMITTEE. 

THE HONOURABLE THE PRESIDENT: I have also to announce to the 
House that I have appointed the Honourable Mr. K. C. Roy to the Library 
Committee in the vacancy caused by the resignation of Sardar Jogendra 
Singh from this Council. 



GOVERNOR. GENERAL'S ASSENT TO BILLS. 

SECRETARY OF THE COUNCIL: Sir, information has been received 
that His Excellency the Governor General has been pleased to grant his* 
assent to the following Bills : 

The Provident Funds Act, 1925. 

The Code of Civil Procedure (Amendment) Act, 1925. 

The Religious Endowments (Amendment) Act, 1925. 

The Salt Law Amendment Act, 1925. 

The Legislative Members Exemption Act, 1925. 

The Sikh Gurdwaras (Supplementary) Act, 1925. 

The Bamboo Paper Industry (Protection) Act, 1925. 

The Indian Carriage of Goods by Sea Act, 1925. 

The Opium (Amendment) Act, 1925. 

The Provident Funds (Amendment) Act, 1925. 

The Indian Penal Code (Amendment) Act, 1925. 

The Indian Limitation (Amendment) Act, 1925. 

The Coal Grading Board Act, 1925. 

The Oudh Courts (Supplementary) Act, 1925. 

The Criminal Tribes (Amendment) Act, 1925. 

The Cotton Transport (Amendment) Act, 1925. 

The Madras, Bengal and Bombay Children (Supplementary) Acfe, 
1925. 

The Indian Ports (Amendment) Act, 1925. 

The Repealing and Amending Act, 1925. 

The Transfer of Property (Amendment) Act, 1925. 

The Indian Succession Act, 1925. 

( 31 ) 



BILLS PASSED BY THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY LAID ON THE 

TABLE 

SECRETARY OF THE COUNCIL : Sir, in accordance with Rule 25 of 
the Indian Legislative Rules, I lay on the table copies of a Bill to define 
and limit the powers of certain Courts in punishing contempts of courts, 
and of a Bill to provide for the registration of Trade Unions and in certain 
respects to define the law relating to registered Trade Unions in British 
India which were passed by the Legislative Assembly at its meeting held 
on the 8th February, 1926. 

ELECTION OF A PANEL FOR THE STANDING COMMITTEE ON 

EMIGRATION. 

THE HONOURABLE SIR MUHAMMAD HABIBULLAH (Member for 
Educcition, Health and Lands) : Sir, I move : 

" That this Council do proceed to elect iin the manner described hi the Department 
of Education, Health and Lands Notification No. 114, dated the 7th February, 1924, 
a panel of 8 members from which the members of the Standing Committee to advise 
on questions relating to emigration in the Department of Education, Health and Lands, 
will be nominated." 

I take it, Sir, that copies of the Notification which have been quoted 
herein are ?ilready in the hands of Honourable Members, and they would 
have noticed that under rule 3 a panel is elected by both Houses, and that 
His Excellency the Viceroy nominates the required numter therefrom to 
the Committee. The last Committee was constituted on the 24th .;f 
March, 1925, consisting of 8 Members of the other House and four Mem- 
bers of this House. Under the same rule, Sir, the term of office extends 
to a period of one year. In the normal course, therefore, the office of these 
Members would have continued until the 24th of March of this year, but 
owing to the dissolution of this House last year such of the Members of 
this House who were members of the Emigration Committee have ceased 
to be members thereof. We are anxious to secure the full complement 
of members on the Emigration Committee, as we anticipate that there will 
be some work for the Committee to discharge in the near future. I have 
therefore ventured to bring forward this Resolution at the earliest possible 
opportunity and to ask the House that it do proceed to elect the panel. 

The motion was adopted. 

THE HONOURABLE THE PRESIDENT: With regard to the motion just 
adopted by the House, I will at the next meeting of the Council announce 
the date by which nominations should be handed in and the date on which, 
if necessary, the election will take place in this Chamber. 

RESOLUTION RE RATIFICATION OF THE DRAFT CONVENTION 
OF THE INTERNATIONAL LABOUR CONFERENCE CONCERN- 
ING WORKMEN'S COMPENSATION FOR OCCUPATIONAL 
DISEASES. 

THE HONOURABLE MR. A. H. LEY (Secretary for Industries and 
Labour): Sir, I beg to move the following Resolution: 

" That this Council having considered the Draft Conventions and Recommendations 
adopted by the seventh International Labour Conference recommends to the Governor 
General in Council that he should ratify the Draft Convention concerning workmen's 
compensation for occupational diseases." 

( 32 ) 



DRAFT CONVENTION OF INTERNATIONAL LABOUR CONFERENCE. 33 

Before, Sir, I come to the details of the Resolution, I should like to 
make one or two introductory remarks. In the first place, I must explain 
why it is necessary for me to trouble this Council with this matter. Pro- 
bably Honourable Members of this Council are fully aware that under 
Article 405 of the Treaty of Peace, it is necessary fo/each member of the 
International Labour Orga-nisation to lay before the competent authority 
any draft Conventions or Kecommendat'ions adopted at an International 
Labour Conference within a period of one yenr or, in very special cases, 
18 months from the date on which those "Draft Conventions or Recom- 
mendations were adopted. The " competent authority " in cases which 
would involve legislative action in connection with the ratification of a 
Convention or the adoption of a Recommendation is in the case of India 
of course on* or other or both of the Houses of Legislature, and that is my 
sole reason for troubling the Council with this matter now. The second 
introductory point to which I would invite the attention of the Council 
is of a more particular nature. I would ask the Council particularly to 
examine the precise wording of my Resolution : 

That this Council having considered the Draft ConYentions ,ind Recommendations 
adopted by the seventh International Labour Conference recommends to the Governor 
'General in Council that he should ratify " 

One of them. 

The implication of that is of course that there arc cc'rtnin other Draft 
Conventions which he should not ratify. Possibly I owe the House an 
apology for having put it in this way. I have done it merely because I 
think it would be convenient and save the time and trouble 
of this Council if it were possible to consider all these 
Draft Conventions and Recommendations passed at the last session 
of the Internationa] Labour Conference as one subject, and to dispose of 
these rather intricate, and possibly a little dry, subjects nt one sitting 
of this Council. That leads me on, Sir, to one other introductory remnrk 
of a more general nature. There are, I think, two more or less opposing 
points of view, which I think it necessary to take into consideration in 
considering these Conventions and Recommendations adopted at Inter- 
national Labour Conferences. There are some who hold the view that India 
is possibly not going fnst enough in adopting legislation designed to improve 
and render more humane the conditions of the working classes. If there 
are any such in this Council, I only wish to remind them that in point 
of fact Indi.i has done as much as, if not more than, any other member 
of the International Labour Organisation in ratifying and enforcing Con- 
ventions adopted in the past designed to improve the conditions of the 
working classes. That is, I think, a justifiable source of pride to India, 
who wishes to take her proper place in advancing the social, economic and 
spiritual progress of the working classes. But I think it is obvious that 
it is unwise to advance at a rate with which social conditions and the state 
of development of labour organisations in this country can hardly keep 
pace. We must obviously, in considering Conventions and Becommend- 
ations of this nature, consider the different social conditions of the country. 
It is always a dangerous proceeding to pour new wine into old bottles. 
Then there is another line of criticism and perhaps this is a more subtle 
criticism which thinks that we have gone too far already in legislation of 
this kind. There are those who urcre that we aire hampering ourselves in 
competition with other countries which have not ratified these various 
Conventions. I think there was a suggestion of that attitude in a question 
I answered a few minutes ago in this Council. This is a point of 



34 COUNCIL OF STATE. [10TH FEB. 1926.. 

[Mr. A. H. Ley.] 

view which I thoroughly appreciate, though it is one which I think it would 
be unfortunate to press too far. However, it is fortunately not necessary 
for me to dilate upon that point -any further, because even these critics 
will, I am sure, agree with me that it is desirable that India should ratify 
Conventions of this nature designed to render more humane the conditions 
in which the working classes work, at any rate in cases where they are able 
to do so without any injury to their own material interests. That in fact 
is the point of view which I wish to impress upon this Council with regard 
to the one draft Convention which I ask this Council to ratify. 

I now come to these Draft Conventions in detail. I will take first 
the one which I have suggested to the Council that they should agree 
that the Government of India should ratify, that is, the Draft Convention 
relating to workmen's compensation for occupational diseases. I think 
all Honourable Members have been furnished with a copy of this Bulletin, 
which gives tin; Recommendations adopted at the International Labour 
Conference. The only operative Article in this Draft Convention is Article 
2, which gives a list ot diseases regarded as occupational diseases and a 
list of corresponding industries and processes, workers in which, if they 
contract these diseases, will be entitled to workmen's compensation under 
the terms of the Workmen's Compensation Act. The first of these is 
lead poisoning. I do not wish to say anything about this, as Honourable 
Members are perfectly well aware that it is already provided for in 
Schedule III of the existing Workmen's Compensation Act and no action 
is therefore necessary. Then we come to mercurial poisoning. I have 
been at some pains to try and discover whether in point of fact mercurial 
poisoning does arise as si result of industrial occupations in this country 
arid I have not found any evidence of it. The disease, if known at all, 
is extremely rare here. But in any case I think it is obvious that a 
disease of this kind, if contracted as a result of industrial occupations, is 
one which should entitle the workmen concerned to the benefits of the 
Workmen's Compensation Act. In point of fact that does not require 
any amendment of the Act, because all that is necessary is for the Governor 
General in Council to issue a Notification under section 3, sub-section (3) r 
adding mercurial poisoning to the, list of occupational diseases given in 
Schedule III to the Act. That will be done if the Council agrees with 
me that the Convention should be ratified. In fact it was not really 
necessary to place this matter before them, because it involves no amend- 
ment of the Inw. Then we come to dnthrax which is the third of those 
diseases. The ratification of this Convention will involve a very small 
amendment of our existing Act and that is why I have to place it before 
this Council. Honourable Members are perfectly well a\varc that anthrax 
is already provided for in sub-section (2) of section 3, which says: 

" Tf a workman rniployed in any employment involving the handling of wool, hair, 
bristles, hides or skins contracts the disease of anthrax . . ." 

he is entitled to compensation. But it will be necessary to make a smalt 
amendment because it will be observed that in the Schedule to Article 2" 
of this Draft Convention there are certain kinds of work which would 
entitle the workmen contracting the disease of anthrax to workmen 1 * 
compensation which are not included in sub-section (2) of section 3 of the 
Act, namely, work in connection with animals infected with anthrax, 
handling of animal carcasses or parts of such carcasses, including hides, 
hoofs and horns, and loading and unloading or transport of merchandise. 



DRAFT CONVENTION OS INTERNATIONAL LABOUR CONFERENCE. 85 

Our Act does not include the handling of animal carcasses or the handling 
of hoofs and horns, and it will therefore involve a very small amendment 
of the existing Act to give effect to this Convention. I would ask the 
Council to agree to the Convention being ratified. It is obviously a very, 
small point and no material interest is involved. In point of fact anthrax 
is a disease which is practically unknown in this country. That is the. 
major portion of my Resolution. 

I would like to detain the Council for just a few minutes to run 
through the other Draft Conventions and Recommendations, which it is 
necessary for me to do in order to give effect to my Resolution. I will 
take them as quickly as I can. Firstly, there ia the Draft Convention* 
regarding equality of treatment for national and foreign workers as regards, 
workmen's compensation for accidents. That I may say, before I go any 
further, is a Convention which the Government of India propose to ratify, 
but it is not necessary technically for me to place it before the Council 
for the very simple reason that it involves no alteration in our existing law. 
The Workmen's Compensation Act, as Honourable Members are aware, 
gives equal treatment for national and foreign workers in Ibe matter of 
workmen's compensation. I only mention it here for the sake of com- 
pleteness in dealing with these Draft Conventions and Recommendations 
as one whole and single subject. Then there remain two other Draft 
Conventions which, if adopted, would require legislative action and which 
it is necessary for me to refer to. There is a Draft Convention about 
night work in bakeries. I ask the Council to agree with me that this 
Convention is one which it would be quite impossible for the Government 
of India to ratify. It is, if I may say so, based on conditiona prevailing 
in countries with more moderate climates quite different from India. In* 
European countries the baking industry ia an industry of a wholly different- 
nature from what it is in India. I need hardly say that it would in any 
case be quite impossible to enforce the Conventoin in regard to the number 
of small bakeries in this country. In the second place, there are of course- 
climatic reasons. It is necessary and is also conducive to the comfort 
and the health of the petty bakers in this country that they should bako 
their bread at night. I do not think it is necessary for me to say much 
on this subject. I only wish to add that the Government of India con- 
sulted all the Local Governments on this question before the matter 
came up at the last session of the International Labour Conference and, 
as might have been expected, Local Governments were unanimously of 
opinion that it was a matter which could not apply to India, and therefore 
it was undesirable to ratify this Convention. 

The third Draft Convention is a Draft Convention relating to workmen's 
compensation for accidents. There are various articles in this Draft 
Convention which are given in this Bulletin. It will, I think, be cle-ar 
if Honourable Members will study it that this Draft Convention is really 
based, if I may say so, on principles which exist in countries where 
labour organisation is very much more advanced and developed than it 
is in this country at the present moment. Article 2, for instance, would 
apply to workmen, employees and apprentices employed in any enterprise, 
undertaking or establishment of whatsoever nature, whether public or 
private; subject to certain exceptions in that Article, which however make 
no difference to my argument. There are various . other Articles io- 
this Convention which go a great deal beyond anything which , exists iii 
our present Act. Article 6 introduces a change in the waiting period* 



36 COUNCIL OP STATE. [10TH FEB. 1926. 

[Mr. A. H. Ley.] 

which is I think undesirable, having regard to the prevailing conditions 
in this country. Articles 7, 9 and 10 also introduce principles which are 
foreign to our Compensation Act. The point of view which I wish to 
impress upon the Council in regard to this matter is that our Workmen's 
Compensation Act is quite new it has been in force only for a little over 
a year and this Convention will introduce an entirely new principle in 
Indian legislation, which is obviously undesirable. In fact, it would be 
quite impracticable at the present moment to undertake a total revision 
of the Act, which would be necessary if this Convention is ratified. It 
is obviously desirable to have several years 1 experience of the working 
of the existing Act to see how far it has achieved the objects for which 
it was introduced and also how far there is any real need for a further 
advance, before we undertake this revision. I think this is all that I have 
got to say with regard to these Draft Conventions. 

As to the Recommendations, only a few words are required. A Recom- 
mendation is, of course, different from a Draft Convention; it is, if I may 
say so, of a less binding character. A Draft Convention has to be accepted 
in toto or rejected. A draft Recommendation is merely a recommendation, 
as its name implies, which has to be placed before the competent authority 
for such action as that .authority deems necessary. There are only two 
or three Recommendations and I will take them in the order in which 
they appear jn the bulletin. The first Recommendation relates to the 
equality of treatment for national and foreign workers as regards workmen's 
compensation for accidents. There is nothing in this Recommendation 
which really applies to India, and as I have already indicated our law 
fully complies with the principle of equality of treatment. Therefore, 
no specific action is necessary in regard to this Recommendation: Then 
there are two Recommendations regarding workmen's compensation for 
accidents. The first is a recommendation regarding the minimum scale 
of compensation. I do not want to repeat what I have already said on 
the substantive part of 'this subject, namely, the Draft Convention. The 
minimum scale of compensation suggested in this Recommendation is 
much more liberal than the scales of compensation provided by our existing 
Workmen's Compensation Act, and it is obviously a recommendation which 
would necessitate a wholesale revision of our Act, which, as I have already 
said, is nob desirable. Then, the second Recommendation is on Jurisdic- 
tion in Disputes on Workmen's Compensation. That is a recommendation 
which is designed to secure arbitration boards to decide workmen's com- 
pensation cases. The Council is well aw.are that our Act which hns only 
recently been passed appoints a Commissioner for Workmen's Compensa- 
tion to decide these cases, and I think, whatever may be the merits of 
this proposal in countries where labour is well educated and well organised, 
there is nothing to be gained by adopting a system of this character in 
India at the present moment. Finally, there is a small recommendation 
regarding occupational diseases which runs as follows : 

11 Each member of the International Labour Organisation should adopt, where 
such procedure does not already exist, a simple procedure by which the list of 
diseases, considered occupational in its national legislation may be revised." 

I need hardly remind the Council that this is already provided for in our 
existing Act. ID is quite a simple matter. The object can be achieved 
merely by issuing a Notification under section 3, sub-section (5). 



DRAFT CONVENTION QP INTERNATIONAL LABOUR CONFERENCE. 37 

I think this is all that I have got to say on this matter. I am afraid,, 
Sir, I have taken rather more time than I had intended on a subject which 
is somewhat intricate and perhaps not very exciting. I wish the Council r 
however, to remember that the really important matters are the Draft 
Conventions. Of the four Draft Conventions, one will in any case be ratified, 
by tke Government of India, as it is met under the existing law. One, that 
relating to occupational diseases, I ask this Council to agree should be 
ratified. I suggest that this Council should agree with me that the other 
two relating to night work in bakeries and workmen's compensation should 
not be ratified in the circumstances prevailing in this country. 

THE HONOURABLE THE PEESIDENT : The question is that the following- 
Resolution be adopted : 

" That this Council, having considered the Draft Conventions and Recommendations 
adopted by the seventh International Labour Conference recommends to the Governor - 
General in Council that he should ratify the Draft Convention concerning workmen's 
compensation for occupational diseases." 

The motion was adopted. 



RESOLUTION RE CONTINUATION OF THE IMPOSITION OF A 
CUSTOMS DUTY ON LAC. 

THE HONOURABLE Mu. D. T. CHADWICK (Commerce Secretary): Sir,, 
I beg to move : 

" That this Council recommends to the Governor General in Council that he may 
be pleased to declare that sections 2 to 6 of the Indian Lac Cess Act, 1921 (XIV of 
1921), which provide for the imposition of a customs duty on lac exported from 
British India, shall continue in force until the 31st day of December, 1931." 

Sir, I cannot claim for my Resolution such high authority as the Honour- 
able Mr. Ley claimed for his. He spoke on a recommendation passed by 
the International Labour Conference. I, Sir, am speaking on a recom- 
mendation of a much humbler association, namely, the Indian Lac Asso- 
ciation. I maintain, however, that the subject with which I have to deal 
is one of very direct and material economic interest to India. 
I am not even asking the Council to adopt a new policy nor 
to undertake to make even a small amendment in an Act which, 
I understand, will be one of the results of our adopting the previous Reso- 
lution. I am only asking the Council to continue to make operative an 
Act which is already on our Statute-book and which is a very useful and 
very beneficent Act. This Act was passed in 1921, four and a half years 
ago* by the first reformed Council. Under it there is permitted the 
imposition of a small cess on all lac exported from India, the proceeds 
of which is to be devoted to scientific research and improvement of cultiva- 
tion of lac both in quantity and quality. Section 7 of this Act, however, 
reads as follows: 

" This Act shall remain in force until the thirty-first day of December, 1926 r 
provided that the Governor General in Council may, on the recommendation of the Lac 
Association and with the previous consent of the Indian Legislature, declare by notifi- 
cation in the Gazette of India that the said sections shall continue in force for any 
further periled specified in the notification." 

We have received a recommendation from the Indian Lac Association 
to continue the Act, and I am now asking the consent of the Legislature 
to that course. The cess, as I have said, is a small one. It is a matter 



$8 COUNCIL OF STATfi. [10TH FEB. 1926. 

[Mr. D. T. Chadwick.] 

of 4 annas a maund on lac, and 2 annas a maund on refuse lac exported 
'irom India. The present export price of lac is about Rs. 80, therefore 
rthe cess is extremely small. At the same time it has yielded a useful 
income of about one and a third lakhs a year to this Association whjch is 
thoroughly representative of all sections and interests in the lac trade. 
.Under the Act these funds are devoted to 'scientific research and improve- 
ment in cultivation of lac. I put it to the Council that if 4 years ago 
the case for this lac cess was a strong one, it is much stronger to-day. 
Our lac exports are worth about 7J crores a year, and India has always 
^comforted itself that it enjoys a monopoly in lac. That is a 
very comforting position in which to be, but it is a position which 
is always a challenge to every other country. Four and a half 
years ago there was a suggestion that that position of monopoly 
would bo challenged, and to-day that challenge is beginning to materialise. 
The challenge is coming from two directions, one from the use of synthetic 
substitutes and the other from Siam. I need not worry the House with 
details as to the use of this very valuable commodity, lac. In fact it 
is beyond me to specify every article into which it goes. Some ingenious 
person always seems to be finding some new use for lac whether 
in varnishes, electrical machinery or gramophone records, etc. Other 
ingenious persons are constantly devising substitutes for lac. And so far 
as synthetic substitutes are concerned we were told by Mr. Lindsay that 
about ten per cent, of the market for our lac in England has now been 
lost by -competition of synthetic substitutes. These substitutes are not 
as good as pure lao but they are coming on. On the other side, -America 
and Europe import more and more stick lac from Siam and have improved 
their methods for purifying and utilising such lac, so much so that while 
4 years ago exports from Siam were only 8,000 tons last year they were 
5,000, as compared with 25,000 tons from India. There is nothing to get 
very mournful about in either of those figures, but they are a warning 
to us, and to India generally, that in the interests of this very important 
commodity it is most desirable to pay as much attention as possible to 
-improving the quantity and quality of the lac. That is one strong reason 
for continuing this Act. The other strong reason that I put forward for 
the consideration of the Council in accepting this Resolution is that after 
,all five years is a very short time in the life of any research institute 
especially in its initial stage. This Association has utilised its five years 
to good purpose. It has got over its early difficulties and to-day it is 
getting to grips with its problems. After consultation with the Local 
Governments of Bihar and Orissa and of the Central Provinces a site was 
selected close to Eanchi. Scientific laboratories have been built, also 
quarters for the staff, and experimental plots have been laid down. The 
buildings were finished only last September but a scientific staff had 
-already been engaged and been at work for two or three years. I have 
myself for a time had the good fortune of being a Director of Agriculture, 
so I am going to be very cautious about prophesying rapid results from 
experiments, but I do know from that experience, that by continuity in 
experiment, by working steadily from year to year, you can get very good 
and very lasting and useful results. Continuity, however, is the first 
essential. Interruption is fatal to all such classes of work. I understand, 
however, that by better culture and better manuring of host plants the 
Eesearch Institute already expect to be able to accelerate the cultivation 



IMPOSITION OF CUSTOMS DUTY ON LAC. 39 

of lac. That in itself will help to make much progress in increasing the 
quantity of the crop. This Institute also works in close touch with the 
local forest officers. I understand the Forest Department have opened 
larms for the distribution of lac. 

I am perfectly certain that after this very short description of the 
work in progress and in sight tho Council will accept this Eesolution 
To throw it out will stop this work entirely. To pass it will mean sending 
-a message of encouragement to these people who are working on this task 
to go forward and prosper. I ask .the Council to adopt this Kesolution. 

THE HONOUIUBLE MK. J. A. HUBBACK (Bihar and Orissa : Nominated 
Official) : fc>ir, I rise to support the Eesolution moved by the Honourable 
Mr, Chadwick. This Kesolution very closely concerns the province .for 
which I have the honour to be nominated to this Council, it concerns 
that province, Bihar and Orissa, more closely, 1 think, than any other 
province of India, seeing that quite half the lac produced in India comes 
from Bihar and Orissa. It is for this reason, Sir, that, though i am but 
a very lately born member of this Council, I dare to address it so soon. 
The Honourable Mr. Chadwick has already very fully covered the ground 
of the arguments to be advanced in favour of the Resolution which ho has 
moved, and 1 do not propose to detain tho Council very long with my own 
remarks. He has indicated that when tho Act which we are now consider- 
ing was under discussion in 1921, India held the practical, monopoly of this 
commodity, and its position was then only just beginning to be threatened. 
He has explained how those threats have developed in the meantime. 11 
is not surprising that tho threats have developed seeing that some fifteen 
jears. ago the price of standard shellac was somewhere about Es. 30 to 
Es. 40 a maund. Shortly before 1921 it had risen to tho extraordinarily 
high rate of Es. 230, and when the Act was actually passed, it stood H/J 
.-fcbout Es. 130. It has now dropped to Es. 80, but there is no doubt that 
tho foreign consumer anticipates the possibility of it rising again to the 
heights it had reached previously, and it should not surprise us, nor can 
we blame them, that they should look round to replacing it with something 
cheaper. In 1021, the Indian Legislature was acting on the recommenda- 
tions of Messrs. Lindsay and Harlow in their report issued very shortly 
before that. They made two general recommendations. The first was 
that steps should be taken to guard against the cutting off of supplies, 
which is a danger arising from the tendency of the cultivator to sell" right 
.down even to their brood lac in times of specially attractive prices. The 
second recommendation was to improve the cultivation and manufacture of 
the product, so that lower prices could bo faced when the need arose with- 
out diminishing the reward either to the cultivator or to the manufacturer. 
The Act which we are considering really dealt with the second object. 1 
may perhaps, however, briefly inform the Council what has been done with 
regard to the first object. That has been met by the action of the Local 
'Governments in their Forest Departments. In 1921 the Government of 
Bihar and Orissa had just started one lao farm in the district of Palamau. 
I am glad to say that the Bihar and Orissa Legislative Council accepted 
in March 1925 budget provision for a programme of no less tiian 8 such 
farms distributed over the whole of the lao producing area. That provi- 
sion was a matter of about 1 lakh non-recurring and about Es. 20,000 "e- 
curting. The Members of this Council no* 3oubt deal with very much 
larger figures, and may consider the quoted figures rather insignificant, 



40 COUNCIL OF STATB. [10TB FfilB. 192& 

[Mr. J. A. Hubback.J 

but I may remind them that the Bihar and Orissa Budget, as a whole is 
not very much more than 5 crores. It is therefore, Sir, relatively a con- 
siderable amount of money that we are spending on this object. I under- 
stand that the example of the Government of Bihar and Orissa in this 
matter is likely in the near future to be followed by private firms who are 
interested in the supply of lao for manufacturing purposes. Now lac is not 
the only concern of our Forest Department, and our officers are not by any 
means all of them, in fact the majority, particularly expert in tEe matter, 
and it is therefore that the -Government of Bihar and Orissa very strongly 
&upports the continuance of this impost, so that the other line of action- 
research in the methods of cultivation and manufacture may be prosecuted, 
,and results of importance obtained. That work the Indian Lac Associa- 
tion has taken uip. They have now, as the Honourable Mr. Chadwick has 
explained, opened ft Lac Research Institute at Namkum near Ranchi. 
The actual buildings were formally opened by His Excellency Sir (ECenry 
Wheeler in August 1924. In September 1925, the laboratories were fully 
equipped and in the meantime much progress has been made in the lay-out 
of the experimental plantations and in other work which will lead up tj 
good results. Tho Institute is under the direction of a very talented lady 
who holds hifjh scientific degrees, apart from whom, she being an English- 
woman, the entire staff is Indian, and her principal colleague is a distin- 
guished Indian scientist, Mr. Misra. They have drawn up a programme 
of considerable extent in which the most important matter nt the present 
moment is a study of the yield and quality of the crop obtained by various 
methods of cultivation and infection of the host trees. They have not 
yet, I may say, even visualized the manufacturing problems which await 
solution. They have attacked their work up to now entirely from thd 
cultivation point of view. I do not wish to trouble the House with details 
of the lines of research which are being undertaken. But T think it is 
clear that the Lac Association, in spending about Es. 4 lakhs on their 
buildings there and in undertaking a programme of which the recurring 
cost will be at present at least one lakh, have not been, idle in the last 1 
years, since they were placed in a position to spend money. When the Act 
was under debate in another place, the point was raised whether this is 
not a function which should be properly carried out by Government, it 
wns however decided that it would be wise to place in the hands of the 
Indian Lac Association, an association of private traders, the funds derived 
from this cess," and I think it may fairly be said that the Indian Lac Asso- 
ciation has fully justified the decision of the Legislature taken in 1921. 
On the importance of the industry I do not wish to speak at any length. 
The manufacturers and shippers are able to look after themselves as u 
rule The lac industry brings a steady source of employment to a number 
of small artisans who work in the factories. It pives a small income, 
but not one that they despise, to the superior landholders of the Chota 
Nagpur plateau, on which most of the lac is grown. But it is to the 
cultivators, the actual cultivators of the trees, that this industry is of very 
great importance indeed. These are the aborigines of the Chota Nagpur 
plateau and its outlying extensions the KKarwars of Palam.au, the Mundas 
and Oraons of Ranchi, the Hos of Singhbhum, the Sonthals of the Sonthrti 
Parganas, the Bhumij's of Manbhum. It is these people, who are, in the 
technical phrase generally used, among the backward races of Ind ; a, and it is 
to these people that the collapse of 'the industry would be a matter of very 
serious import. The lac industry for {hem supplements the profits of their 



IMPOSITION OF CUSTOMS DUTY ON LAC. 4-1 

agriculture, and it makes in many cases just the difference between a 
mere subsistence livelihood and a little real comfort. They naturally 
expect a continuance of a reasonable return for the labour which they 
expend on cultivating lac, labour which, in order to raise the hot weather 
l&o crop, is carried out, at times, in considerable discomfort during the hot 
weather. But when I speak of the collapse like the Honourable Mr. 
Chad wick I do not say for a moment that the collapse is imminent. J 
have myself seen new plantations in Manbhum recently* I have too 
heard from various sources that brood lac is sought from a great distance 
by the inhabitants of the outlying parts of the tract in which it is grown, 
I may also add that the extension of lac cultivation was specially brought 
to my notice not very long ago, when I was called upon to decide a diffi- 
cult point of right between landlord and tenant regarding host trees 'n 
a part of the Sonthal Parganas to which lac cultivation has only recently 
spread. But, as the Honourable Mr. Chad wick has made clear, the posi- 
tion, though not such that we must expect an imminent collapse, is suffi- 
ciently serious. 1 have explained that the Lac Association and the Gov- 
ernment of Bihar and Orissa and I have no doubt other Governments 
concerned have taken already such steps as they think advisable to secure 
to the industry a basis of steady supply with an adequate return to the 
cultivator working up to prices, at which we can undersell synthetic lac 
and meet other forms of competition. With this object in view, the 
Lac Association itself has a few weeks ago unanimously recommended the 
continuance of this trifling impost of 4 annas on a commodity at present 
valued at Bs. 80. The Government of India are now asking the Legisla- 
ture to confirm this recommendation. It would, in my opinion, be most 
unwise, exceedingly unwise, for this Council to throw away the work dona 
and the expense incurred during the last 4 years and thus jeopardise the 
future prosperity of this important, and I may add, peculiarly Indian 
industry. 

THE HONOURABLE THE PBESIDENT: The question is that the following 
Besolution be adopted : 

11 This Council recommends to the Governor General in Council that he may be 

E leased to declare that sections 2 and 6 of the Indian Lac Cess Act, 1921 (XIV of 
921), which provide for the imposition of a customs duty on lac exported from 
British India, shall continue in force until the 31st day of December, 1931." 

The motion was adopted. 

THE HONOURABLE THE PRESIDENT : Can the Honourable the Leader rf 
the House givo the Council any information as to the future course of 
business? 



STATEMENT OF BUSINESS. 

THE HONOURABLE SIR MUHAMMAD HABIBULLAH (Member for Edu- 
cation, Health and Lands) : Sir, to-morrow being a holiday I understand that 
the Council will not meet again till Monday next. Monday and Wednes- 
day in next week are non-official days and the business ballotted for those 
days has already been communicated to Honourable Members. On Tues- 
day, the 16th, motions will be made for the consideration and passing of 



4 COUNCIL OF STATE. [10TH FEB. 1926. 

[Sir Muhammad Habibullah.J 

three of the Bills which were laid on the table at the opening meeting, 
namely : 

the Small Cause Courts (Attachment of Immoveable Property) Bill; 
the Guardians and Wards (Amendment) Bill; and 
the Government Trading Taxation Bill, 

and similar motions will be made with regard to the Trade Unions Bill 
which was laid on the table to-day. 

On Thursday, the 18th, the presentation of the Bailway Budget will be 
followed by similar motions in respect of two of the remaining Bills laid on 
the table at the opening meeting, namely : 

the Code of Criminal Procedure (Amendment) Bill, and 
the Indian Lunacy (Amendment) Bill. 

Honourable Members have heard His Excellency the Governor Gen- 
eral's Message allotting Saturday, the 20th, for the discussion of the Bail- 
way Budget. No other business will be taken on that day. 

The Contempt of Courts Bill will be proceeded with on Tuesday, the 
23rd February. 

THE HONOURABLE MR. K. C. BOY (Bengal : Nominated Non-official) : 
Sir, on a point of order, might I suggest to the Honourable the Leader of 
the House that he ought to give us more time to consider the Contempt 
of Courts Bill. The Legislative Assembly was given almost a year to 
settle it. 

THE HoNouitABLK THE PRESIDENT: I have no doubt that Govern- 
ment will bear in mind what the Honourable Member has said. In the 
meantime I would advise him to occupy his spare time in studying tha 
Bill. There is nearly a fortnight before him now. 

The Council then adjourned till Eleven of the Clock on Monday, the 
15th February, 1926. 



Copies ot the Debates of the Legislative Assembly and of the 
Council of State are obtainable on sale from the Manager, Central 
Publication Branch, 8, Hastings Street, Calcutta. 



COUNCIL OF STATE 
DEBATES 



MONDAY, 15th FEBRUARY, 1926 

Vol. VII No. 3 



OFFICIAL REPORT 




CONTENTS 

Members Sworn. 

Questions and Answers. 

Election to the panel of the Standing Committee on 

Emigration. 
Bills passed by the Legislative Assembly Laid on the 

Table. 
Resolution re the Royal Commission on Agriculture 

Adopted. 
Resolution re Reduction of the travelling and daily 

allowances of the Mnabers of the Council of State 

Discussion postponed tine die. 

Statement of Business. 



DELHI 

GOVERNMENT OF INDIA PRESS 
1926 



Price Five Annas. 



COUNCIL OF STATE. 

Monday, lth February., 1926. 



The Council met in the Council Chamber at Eleven of the Clock, the 
Honourable the President in the Chair. 



MEMBERS SWORN. 

The Honourable Raja Sir Rampal Singh, K.C.I.E. (United Provinces 
Central : Non-Muhamrnudan) ; the Honourable Mr. Manmohandas Ramji 
Vora (Bombay : Non-Muhammadan) ; the Honourable Mr. Phirozo C. Scthna, 
O.B.E. (Bombay: Non-Muliammadan); the Honourable Major Nawab 
Mahomed Akbar Khan, C.l.E. (North- West Frontier Province: Nominated 
Non-Official); and the Honourable Mr. Ratansi D. Morarji (Bombay: Non- 
M u h amrri ad an) . 

QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS. 

AMENDED HESO-LIJTIOH ADOPTED BY THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY 

REGARDING THE RECOMMENDATIONS OF THE REFORMS 

INQUIRY COMMITTEE. 

53. THE HONOURABLE MR. PH1ROZE C. SETHNA : Will Government 
,be pleased to stale what action they have taken on the amended Resolution 
adopted by the Legislative Assembly, regarding the recommendations of 
the Reforms Inquiry Committee, on 8th September, 1925? 

APPOINTMENT OF A ROYAL COMMISSION TO INVESTIGATE THE WORKING 

OF TL1E MoXTAUU-ClIJiLMSFORD REFORMS. 

54. TJIK HONOURABLE Mn. PH1ROZE C. SETHNA: Is it a fact that 
His Majesty's Government have decided on sending a Royal Commission 
to India to investigate the working of the Montagu-Chclmsford Reforms and 
to report on changes considorad necessary ? 

THE HONOURABLE MR. J. CRERAR: I propose, if the Honourable 
Member has no objection, to answer his questions Nos. 53 and 54 together. 
The matters referred to in these two questions will arise in the course 
of debate on the Resolution of which the Honourable Member has given 
notice. He will doubtless agree with me that it is undesirable at this 
stage to anticipate the course of debate. 

NUMBER, OF VOTEHS IN EACH CONSTITUENCY OF THE COUNCIL or STATE 

WHO VOTED AT THE LAST GENERAL ELECTION. 

55. THE HONOURABLE MR. PH1ROZE C. SETHNA: Will Government 
be pleased to lay on the table a statement showing : 

(a) the number of voters in each constituency of the Council of State ; 

and 

(b) the number of voters who did vote in each such constituency at 

the last general election? 

THE HONOURABLE MR. J. CRERAR: (a) and (6). A return giving the 
information asked for by the Honourable Member is under preparation. 
!A cdpy of it will be placed in the Library of this House in due course. 

( 43 ) A 



44 COUNCIL OP STATE. [15TH FEB. 192& 

REVISION OF LAND REVENUJE ASSESSMENTS. 

56. THE HONOURABLE MR. PHIROZE C. SETHNA : Will Government 
be pleased to lay on the table a statement showing what action each Pro- 
vincial Government has taken to give effect to the recommendation of the- 
Joint Parliamentary Committee of the Government of India Bill, 1919, 
that the process of revising land revenue assessments should be brought 
under closer regulation by Statute? 

THE HONOURADLK SIR MUHAMMAD HABIBULLAII: Legislation on 
the subject has been initiated in the Punjab, Central Provinces and Berar, 
and Assam; a draft Bill has been published by the Government of the 
United Provinces. The matter is still under consideration elsewhere. 

TJIE HONOUKAHLK Mil. PIIIROZE C. SETHNA: Is there any probable' 
date when the work will be taken in hand by the remaining provinces? 

THE IIoNoi;itAHLK Sin MUHAMMAD HAB1BULT.ATI: They have 
applied themselves to that task already, and it is hoped Hint they will 
do it very soon. 

Anvnssrox OF INDIAN STUDENTS IN ENGLAND INTO THE UNIVERSITY 
Opi'K'KUH' TRAINING CORPS. 

57. THK FToNorKAiiLK MJI. PHIROZE C. SETHNA: (a) With regard 
to question No. 55 asked on 1st September 1925, in tlie Council of Stated 
regarding tho removal of tho disability against Indian students in England 
to enter the-. University Otticora' Training Corps, and the reply given thereto, 
will Government be pleased to state whether they have received a reply 
from the Sonv.tary of Stale to their despatch on the subject? 

(b) If not, have they again written to the Secretary of State request- 
ing him to expedite the matter? 

(c) If n reply is received, will it be placed on the table? 

His EXCELLENCY THE COMMANDER-IN-CHIEF: (a) and (6). The. 
answer is in the negative; and (c) does not therefore arise. 

INDIANTSATION OF THM STAFF OF THE HIGH COMMISSIONER FOR INDIA. 

58. TIIK HONOURABLE MR. THIKOZE C. SETHNA: Will Government- 
be pleased to state : 

(a) what action has been taken on the Resolution, regarding Indianisa- 

tion of the staff of the High Commissioner for India, adopted 
by this Council on 8th September 1925 ; and 

(b) if any progress has been made in the Tndianising of the higher 

staff and establishment of the High Commissioner since? the 
adoption of the Resolution and, if so, the details thereof? 

Tins HONOURABLK Mn. P. T. CHAD WICK: (a) A copy of the debates- 
and Resolution wore forwarded to tho High Commissioner last September, 
lie was requested to follow thS principle involved in the Resolution and 
that, consistently with economy and efficiency, opportunities should be 
tnkon to employ more Indians on his staff. 

(b) The Government nre not aware that any opportunities have occurred 
recently for action in this direction, but the Government of India have 
reason to know that the High Commissioner is bearing this principle itt 
tnind. 



QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS. 45 

REDUCTION OF RAILWAY RATES AND FARES. 

59. THE HONOURABLE MR. PHIROZE 0. SETHNA: Will Govern- 
ment be pleased to state : 

(a) what was the maximum increase on the pre-war rate in the 

railway rates and fares in the United Kingdom; 
(6) when were the rates reduced after the war and to what extent; 

(c) what has keen the rise in the railway rates and fares in India 

since 1912-13; 

(d) how does the proposed reduction in the third class passenger 

rates of the Great Indian Peninsula and the North Western 
Railways compare with the rate of reduction in the United 
Kingdom ; and 

(c) when do Government propose to secure similar reductions on the 
other railway systems in the country? 

THE HONOURABLE MR. D. T. CITADWICK : (a), (b), (c) and (d). 1 take 
100 as representing pre-war goods, rates and passenger fares in both 
countries. On that basis goods pates and passenger fares in August, 1921, 
in tho United Kingdom would be represented by 212 and 175. Since 
August, 1921, these, have, been reduced in the United Kingdom to 150 
in each case. In India- the highest post-war figures for goods rates on 
different railways varied between 115 and 125, and for passenger fares, 
150. The reductions now applied by the Great Indian Peninsula and the 
North Western Railways will bring the last figure down to 132 and 
1 29, respectively . 

(c) Passenger fares arc being reduced on most Railways in India. 
TUB HONOURABLE MR. PHTROZK C. SETHNA: Most, not nil? 

THE HONOURABLE Mil. D. T. CHADWICK : I would not like to say 
offhand all. But the Honourable Member will sec a very complete state- 
ment in the Appendix to the proceedings of the Standing Finance Com- 
mittee of the Railways, which was published three or four weeks ago. 

PREPARATION BY THE RAILWAY BoAUD OF A PROGRAMME WU TIIK 
REDUCTION OF FREIGHT CHARGES. 

60. THE HONOURABLE MR. PHIROZE C. SETHNA: Will Govern- 
ment state if tho Railway Board has prepared any programme for the 
reduction of freight charges and if any communications to that effect 
have taken place between the Board and the Railway administrations? 
If so, will Government be pleased to lay them on the table? 

THE HONOURABLE MR. D. T. CHADWICK: I would suggest that tho 
Honourable Member should kindly await the Explanatory Memorandum 
of the Railway Budget for the year 1926-27 which will be presented to this 
House shortly. 

THE HONOURABLE MR. PIIIROZE C. SETHNA: 1925-26? 

THE HONOURABLE MR. D. T. CHADWICK: T am afraid tho Honourable 
Member has not caught my meaning. I have asked tho Honourable Member 
to wait for an answer to his question till the presentation of the Railway 
Budget, which will take place this week, i.e., the Budget for next year. 

A 2 



COUNCIL OF STATE, [15TH FEB. 1926.; 

TO THE INDIAN POLICE KOIt THE LAST TEN YEABS. 

61. THE HONOURABLE MB. PHIEOZE C. SETHNA: Will Govern- 
ment be pleased to state : 

\(a) what supervision they exercise over the recruitment in the 
police service for the subordinate grade and also the superior 
grade in the different provinces in the country; 
"(6) if recruitment for the police service for superior grades is con- 
tinuing in the United Kingdom; and 

(c) the figures of the recruitment in the superior police service of 
Indians and Europeans during the last ten years? 

'THE HONOURABLE MR. J. GEEEAE : (a) The Government of India 
-^exercise no supervision over recruitment to the provincial and subordinate 
.police services. Appointments to the Indian (Imperial) Police Service, 
on the other hand, are made by the Secretary of State in Council and all 
.recruitment to that service is under his supervision. 

(b) Eecruitrnent to the Indian (Imperial) Police Service is still made 
in England as well as in India. 

(c) Since 1916, 257 Europeans and 113 Indians have been appointed 
to the Indian (Imperial) Police Service. 

THE HONOURABLE EAO SAHIB DR. U. EAMA EAO: In this connection 
-may I ask when the proposed Public Services Commission is likely to be 
* constituted? 

'Tins HONOURABLE MR. J. CEEEAE: I venture to suggest that that 
-hardly arises out of my reply. 

THE HONOURABLE THE PRESIDENT : I think the Honourable Member 
.had better put a substantive question of his own on that point. 

THE HONOURABLE EAO SAIIIR DR. U. EAMA EAO: In this connection, 
'Sir, may I ask when the proposed Public Services Commission is likely 
.to be constituted? 

THE HONOURABLE THE PRESIDENT : I think the Honourable Member 
had better give notice of a- substantive question of his own: it- ^rdly 
-arises out of the answer given, 

RUPEE TENDERS FOR STORES. 

62. k THE HONOURABLE Mil. PHIEOZE C. SETHNA: Will Govern- 
ment be pleased to state what progress has been made in the adoption 
of the system of the rupee tender for delivery in India for Government 
purchases? 

THK. HONOURABLE MR. A. H. LEY: The Honourable Member is referred 
to the reply given by me to question No. 10 by -the Honourable Eai Bahadur 
Lala Bam Saran Das on the same subject. 

ESTABLISHMENT OF A TRAINING SHIP IN INDIAN WATERS. 

63. THE HONOURABLE MR. PHIROZE C. SETHNA: Will Govern- 
ment be pleased to state what progress has been made in the establishment 
of a training ship as the result of the Beport of the Mercantile Marine 
^Committee? 



. , - ; QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS. 4,7 

THE HONOURABLE MR. D, T. CHAD WICK: An expert came out. 
from England in December last to advise about the establishment of $* 
training ship in Indian waters. He has submitted his report, which is at, 
present under consideration. 

THE HONOURABLE MR. PHIBOZE C. SETHNA : How soon do Govern- 
ment expect to make public this report? 

THE HONOURABLE MR. D. T. CHAD WICK: They hope to make ifc 
public shortly, I believe; very shortly indeed. 

THE HONOURABLE MR. PHIEOZE C. SETHNA: May I know whate 
shortly means? 

THE HONOURABLE MR. D. T. CHAD WICK: Yes, Sir; very shortly. 

IKTEUIM REPORT OF THE INDIAN DKPUTATION TO SOUTH AFRICA. 

64. THE HONOURABLE MR. PHIEOZE C. SETHNA: Will Govern- 

ment please state: 



(a) if they have received any ad interim report from the deputation? 
to South Africa; and 

(6) if so, will Government be pleased to lay the papers on the* 
table or to make a statement on the subject? 

THE HONOURABLE SIR MUHAMMAD HABIBULLAH: (a) Yes. 

(b) As the conclusions contained therein are provisional, Government. 
are not prepared to lay it on the table of. the House at present or to make* 
a statement on the subject. 

THE HONOURABLE MR. V. BAMADAS PANTULU : Is it a fact that- 
the delegation could not find accommodation in any hotel on account of." 
racial prejudice and that therefore priv ( ate accommodation had to bet 
arranged for them? 

THE HONOURABLE THE PKESIDENT : I doubt if the report of the depu- 
tation is likely to contain -anything on that matter. The Honourable- 
Member, I would suggest again, should ask a substantive question oni 
that point. 

PURCHASE OF STATIONEUY FOR GOVERNMENT OFFICES. 

65. THE HONOURABLE MR. PHIEOZE C. SETHNA: (a) Will Govern- 
ment be pleased to state whether the purchase of stationery for Govern*- 
ment offices is at present being done by open tender? 

(b) From how many firms these, tenders were received last year? 

(c) What is the country of origin of the goods purchased? 



HONOURABLE Ma. A. H. LEY; (a) Yes. 
(*) HG. 
(c) India and the United Kingdom^ 



48 COUNCIL OP STATE. [15TH FEB. 1926. 

THE HONOURABLE EAO SAHIB DR. U. KAMA EAO : May I know whether 
the indent on foreign countries is decreasing every year? 

THE HONOURABLE MR. A. H. LEY: For stationery? 
THE HONOURABLE RAO SAHIB DR. U. RAMA RAO : Yes. 

THE HONOURABLE MR. A. H. LEY: I am afraid I shall have to ask 
for notice of that question because I cannot remember the precise figures 
at the moment. In point of fact in 1924-25, which is tho last year for 
which I have figures, the indent on England for paper amounted to 3 
lakhs and in India to 28 lakhs. If my recollection is correct, the pro- 
portion purchased in India- is going up year by year. 

PlLOr.llAMMK 01- TIIM TAHIPF liOAlID FOU THE NKXT SIX HOXTHR. 

GO. Tins JfoNOUKABLK MR. PIIIROZM C. SETHNA : Will Govern- 
ment be pleased to state the programme of the Tariff Board for the next 
six months? 

THE ([ONOUIIAULK MR. J). T. CHAD WICK: The Board are at present 
occupied with the inquiries mentioned in the two Commerce Department 
Resolutions of 128th March and that of 30th September, 1925, which were 
published in the (la/ette of India. II is proposed, as soon as possible after 
Jst April ni'xt, l refer to them the. inquiry required under section 6 of the 
Steel industry (Protection) Act. 

DATK OF THE MKXT STATUTORY STEEL INQUIRY. 

07. TUB HONOURABLE MR. PHIROZTC C. SETHNA: Will Govern- 
ment bo pleased to state how early during the official year 1926-27 they 
propose to ask tho Tariff Board to sit in inquiry in the matter of pro- 
tection to the Indian steel industry and branches of the allied trade in anti- 
cipation of the expiry of the Indian Steel Industry Protection Act? 

THE HONOURABLE Mu. D. T. CHAD WICK: It is not possible to give 
an approximate date. But the Government propose to refer the matter 
to the Board ns soon as possible after the commencement of the next 
financial year. 

POLITICAL SIGNIFICANCE ATTACHING TO THE VISIT TO INDIA OF 
Sin JOHN SIMON, LOUD IXCHCAVE, ETC. 

68. TUB HONOURABLE Mu. PHIROZE C. SETHNA: Will Govern- 
ment bo pleased to state if there was any political significance in the 
recent visit to India of Sir John Simon, Lord Inchcape, Mr. Ramsay 
Macdonald, Sir Willi;im Bull and Sir Warren Chilcott? 

THE HONOURABLE MR. J. CRERAR: Government do not attach any 
such significance to the visits. 

THE HONOURABLE RAO SAHIB DR. U. RAMA RAO: Did any of these 
gentlemen come to India on the invitation of the 

THE HONOURABLE MR. J. CRERAR : No, Sir. 



QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS. 4& 

ESTABLISHMENT OF A KATES ADVISORY COMMITTED. 

69. THE HONOURABLE MR. PHIBOZE C. SETHNA: (a) What is the 
present position with regard to the Bates Tribunal? 

(6) Are the Government aware that there is considerable discontent in 
he country at the delay in the carrying out of this recommendation of 
:the Acworth Committee? 

(c) Will they state when the technical difficulties felt hitherto will 
be overcome? 

THE HONOURABLE MR. D. T. CHADWICK: A Bates Advisory Com- 
mittee will be set up shortly and its functions will be to investigate and 
report to the Government of India on the following subjects: 

(1) Complaints of undue preference (section 42 (2) of the Indian 

Ball ways Act, 1890); 

(2) Complaints that rales are unreasonable in themselves; 

x (3) Complaints or disputes in respect of terminals (section 46 of the 
Eailways Act) ; 

(4) The reasonableness or otherwise of any conditions as to the 
packing of articles specially liable to damage in transit or 
liable to cause damage to other merchandise; 

'(5) Complaints in respect of conditions as to packing attached to 
a rate; and 

(6) Complaints thai railway companies do not fulfil their obligations, 
to provide reasonable facilities under section 42(3) of the 
Eailways Act. 

The personnel of the Committee is now under consideration and it is 
"hoped that the Committee will commence their duties at an early date. 

THE HONOURABLE MR. PHIEOZE C. SETHNA: Will the Government 
be pleased to state why a llailway Advisory Committee has been appointed 
and not a, Eates Tribunal as suggested by the Acworth Committee?^ 

THE HONOURABLE MR. D. T. CHADWICK: I believe, Sir, that the 
Honourable Member will find an answer to that question in the speech 
of the Honourable the Commerce and Bail way Member on the Bailway 
Debate of last year. 

ROYAL COMMISSION ON REFORMS. 

70. THE HONOURABLE MR. PHIBOZE C. SETHNA: (1) Has a decision 
tbeen taken on the questions : 

(a) whether the Boy'al Commission on Reforms is going to be insti- 
tuted earlier than 1929; and 

(6) whether amongst other subjects of inquiry before this Commission, 
the question of eliminating the control of the Secretary of State 
over rules of stores purchase will be included? 

(2) If the reply to (1) (a) is in the negative, will Government be pleased 
Jo state whether this item, namely, the question of control of the Secretary 
of State over stores purchase for Government and public bodies,, will 
t>e dealt with piecemeal by negotiation? 



50 



COUNCIL OF STATE. 



[15TH FEB. 192ff. 



THE HONOURABLE MR. J. CKEEAB : 1. (o) The Honourable the Home 
Member will deal with this matter in the course of debate on the Besolu- 
tion of which the Honourable Member has given notice. 

(6) The general scope of the Commission's inquiry is indicated in 
section 84A of the Government of India Act. I am not aware' what the 
specific terms of reference will be. 

2. Does not arise, but I am able to inform the Honourable Member 
that the matter is receiving separate consideration. 

LOCOMOTIVES FOR STATE RAILWAYS. 

71. THE HONOURABLE MR. PHIEOZE C. SETHNA: Will Govern- 
ment be pleased to give : 

(a) the number of locomotives which were ordered for the Indian 
State Railways during each of the following years, namely, 
1920-21 to 1925-26; and 

(6) the number of locomotives which will be required during the 
next five years according to the five-year programmes of 
various railways, which are in the hands of the Railway 
Board? 

THE HONOURABLE MR. D. T. CIIADWICK: A statement giving the- 
information for all class I programme railways, which is presumably what 
is required by the Honourable Member, is placed on the table. 





















(*) 








1920- 


1921- 


1'.'22- 


3923- 19M- 


192.V 


1921V 


1927- 


1928- 


19:9- 


193u 





Jl. 


22. 


23. 


2 1. 2ft. 


:>r.. 


L7. 


28. 


1:9. 


30. 


31. 
























Bro'd ft an pro . 


553 


71 


156 


li'o US 


2C6 


90 


7.) 


02 


91 


129 
























Mitro (iaii(! . 


JilG 


42 


78 


30 14 


41 


P3 


S2 


51 


61 


28 



y.B. The 1'gures for 192C-21 include arrears carried forward from war period. 

STAND AIM) TYPK ov LOCOMOTIVES von INDIA. 



72. THE HONOURABLE MR. PHIEOZE C. SE'fHNA : Wfil Govern- 
ment be pie used to state : 

(a) if final agreement has been reached with regard to the standard 
type of locomotives for India; 

(6) if such an agreement has been reached, how many locomotives 
of this typo have been ordered; and 

(c) whether it was the intention in making a standard typfr 
to eliminate a variety of types and to secure the largest 
number of this type in India? 



QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS. 5U 

THE HONOURABLE MK. D. T. CHAD WICK: (a) and (6). No. Provi- 
sional conclusions have been reached and 89 engines of eight different types ; 
are being ordered to test their suitability. 

(c) The object of standardization is to try to reduce the number of, 
types in use. 

FURTHER KEPRESENTATION FROM THE BOMBAY MILLOWNERS ASSOCIATION 
REGARDING PROTECTION FOR THE COTTON INDUSTRY. 

73. THE HONOURABLE MR. PHIKOZE C. SETHNA: Will Govern- 
ment be pleased to state : 

(a) whether they have received any further representation from the 

Bombay Millowners' Association since the interview of the 
Association's deputation 'with IHis Excellency the Viceroy 
asking for protection in any direction apart from the repeal' 
of the excise duty; and 

(b) if so, what reply Government have vouchsafed? 

THE HONOURABLE MR. D. T. CHAD WICK: (a) No, Sir. 
(6) Does not arise. 

THE HONOURABLE EAO SAHIB DR. U. EAMA RAO: In connection with' 
the abolition of the cotton excise duty, are the Government aware of the- 
press telegram which appeared in the papers to the effect that the Japanese- 
Government intend raising the duty on pig iron? 

THE HONOURABLE Mu. D. T. CITADWICK: I have seen that telegram 
and seen it contradicted by another telegram, and I have seen it asserted 1 
a second time and again contradicted. 

INTERIM REPORT OF THE ROYAL COMMISSION ox CTHKENCY. 

74. THE HONOURABLE MR. PHTROZE C. SETHNA: Will Govern- 
ment be pleased to state if any ad interim report has been received or has 
been called for from the Royal Commission on Indian currency and ex- 
change? 

THE HONOURABLE Mu. A. C. McWATTERS: The answer is in the 
negative to both parts of the question. 

ACTION TAKEN ON THE REPORT OF THE EXTERNAL CAPITAL COMMITTEE. 

75. THE HONOURABLE MR. PHIROZE C. SETHNA: Will Govern- 
ment be pleased to state what action they propose to take with regard to 
the report of the Blackett Committee on External Capital? 

THE HONOURABLE MR. A. C. McWATTERS: The Government have 
consulted Provincial Governments and have also addressed the authorities 
of the Imperial Bank on a number of points. The further action must 
await the receipt of replies to those communications. 

THE HONOURABLE MR. PHIROZE C. SETHNA: Have not the. local 
banks and the exchange banks been consulted? 

THE HONOURABLE MR. A. C. McWATTERS : We have not definitely 
addressed the local banks and the exchange banks at this stage, but they 
will certainly be consulted either through the Local Governments or other- 
wise before any decisions are arrived at. 



32 COUNCIL, OP STATB. [15TH FEB. 1926, 

REPORT OF THE TAXATION INQUIRY COMMITTEE. 

76. THE HONOURABLE MR. PHIKOZE C. SETHNA: (a) Will Govern- 
iment be pleased to lay on the table Volume I of the Report of the Taxation 
Inquiry Committee? 

(6) Is any action going to be taken on the Report of this Committee be- 
fore this House has an opportunity of discussing tho main recommenda- 
tions ? 

(c) Are any changes going to be introduced in the forthcoming budget 
as the result of the report of this Committee? 

THE HONOURABLE MR. A. C. McWATTERS : (a) It is expected that the 
Beport will be published in a few days. 

(b) and (c) I would invite the Honourable Member's attention to para- 
graph 9 of the Finance Department Resolution announcing the formation 
of the Committee which stated that before any action is taken on the 
Report, opportunity will be taken to have a full consultation with the repre- 
sentatives of public opinion and the Legislature. 

ADOPTION or ALL-INDIA- LEGISLATION ON THE LINES 01 THE BOMBAY 
SECURITIES CONTRACTS CONTHOL ACT. 

77. THK HONOURABLE MR. PHIROZE C. SETHNA: (a) Will Govern- 
ment be pleased to state whether any legislation exists in any other pro- 
vince on the lines of the Bombay Securities Contracts Control" Act? 

(b) Do Government propose to institute all-India legislation on the 
subject? 

THE HONOURABLE MR. D. T. CHAD WICK : (a) No such legislation 
exists. 

.(b) Government as at present advised have no such intention. 
OF LAND FOB, MILITARY PURPOSES IN BOMBAY. 



78. THE HONOURABLE MR. PHIROZE C. SETHNA : (a) Has the 
attention of Government been drawn to the report of the Financial Sub- 
Committee of the Special Committee instituted by the Government of 
Bombay for looking into the activities of the Development Department, 
'particularly with reference to the Back Bay reclamation? 

(6) In view of the facts brought together in the majority and minority 
Sub-Committee's report, will Government be pleased to state whether they 
propose to take any action with regard to the purchase of military land? 

His EXCELLENCY THE COMMANDER-IN-CHIEF: (a) Government 
have seen certain newspaper accounts of the matter. 

(b) The Government of India do not at present contemplate any change 
of plan on their part in regard to this question. The position is that the 
land if purchased is to be paid for with the proceeds of military properties 
which are available for sale but have not yet been sold, while the land to 
jbe purchased is itself not yet in being. 



QU18TIONS AND ANSWERS. 53 

THE HONOURABLE MR. PHIROZE C. SETHNA : As at present arranged, 
will the military land be sold to the Government of Bombay if it is decided 
that the portion of the reclamation wtich was to be set aside for military 
purposes is not to be reclaimed. 

His EXCELLENCY THE COMMANDER-IN-CHIEF : That, I think, is the 
intention at present, but we have no detailed information whatever from 
the Bombay Government on the subject beyond what we see in the papers. 

LOAN PROGRAMMER OF PROVINCIAL GOVERNMENTS. 

79. THE HONOURABLE MR. PHIROZE C. SETHNA: Will Government 
be pleased to state : 

(a) what supervision they have imposed on the Provincial Govern- 

ments on the loans which they have taken from the Govern- 
ment of India particularly under the heading of development; 
and 

(b) whether they propose -to introduce legislation or to issue an 

executive order for securing the proper sanction of Provincial 
Councils to the loan programmes submitted to the Govern- 
ment of India by Provincial Governments? 

THE HONOURABLE MR. A. C. McWATTERS : (a) I would invite the 
Honourable Member's attention to the Finance Department Resolution 
No. D.-1250-F., dated the 25th March, 1925, which was published in the 
Gazette of India. 

(b) The reply is in the negative. 

The Honourable Member is no doubt aware that the expenditure to be 
incurred out of borrowed money comes under the scrutiny of the Legisla- 
ture when the proposals of the Local Government for the appropriation of 
provincial revenues and other moneys in any year is, as prescribed in section 
72D of the Government of India Act, submitted to the vote of the Council 
in the form of Demands for Grants. 

EXPORT DUTY ox RUBBER. 

80. THE HONOURABLE MR. PHIROZE C. SETHNA: Have Govern- 
ment considered the advisability of imposing an export duty on rubber 
as a means of additional revenue? 

THE HONOURABLE MR. D. T. CHADWICK: No, Sir. I would refer the 
Honourable Member to Chapter XI of the Report of the Fiscal Commission 
where the effect of export duties is discussed and in particular to the princi- 
ples laid down in section 182 of that Chapter. 

RECEIPTS UNDER INCOME-TAX FOR THE BOMBAY CITY. 

81. THE HONOURABLE MR. PHIROZE C. SETHNA:. Will Govern- 
ment be pleased to state the figures of the receipt of income-tax from 
Bombay city, month by month, for each of the years 1921-22 to 1924-25 
aad Jfor as many months as may be available for the year 1925-26? 



54 COUNCIL OP STATE. [15TH FEB. 1926.- 

THE HONOURABLE MK. A. G. Mo WAITERS: Statements giving the 
information for the years 1921-22 to 1924-25 are laid on the table. Figures 
cannot be given at present for 1925-26. 



Statement showing receipts under Income-tax for the Bombay City for the year 

1921-22. 





Oross collection 


Gross collection 


Month. 


under 


under 




Income-tax. 


Super-tax. 




Rs. 


Rs. 


April . 














m 


20,99,767 


24,12,447 


May . 














e 


16,04,670 


4,61,994 


June 














e 


15,54,339 


7,48,919 


Jnly 














. 


23,21,316 


12,37,861 


Auguat 














. 


43,22,689 


22,92,392 


September 














h 


50,96,595 


34,99,278 


October 
















33,89,253 


22,65,523 


November 














. 


37,87,836 


33,98,739 


December 














m 


41,82,498 


29,09,669 


January 














B 


51,85,087 


38,94,752 


February 














B 


36,89,439 


31,59,082 


March 
















65,60,630 


67,53,418 


Total 


4.28,CO,123 


3,20,34,074 


Less Refunds and Adjustments for the year . 48,89,953 


33,13,380 


3,79,10,170 


2,87,20,694 



Statement showing receipts under Income-tax for the Bombay City for the year 



Month. 


Gross collection 
under- 
Income-tax. 


Gross, collection, 
under 
Super- tax.. 




RB. 


Rs. 


April 




, 








. 


13,59,096 


15,31,353 


May 




. 








. 


20,93,364 


13,55,650 


June 












m 


20,61,648 


12,54,967 


July 














. 


16,96,603 


14,60,637 


August 
















23,23,713 


13,34,326: 


September 














. 


23,14,725 


11,97,780 


October 














. 


42,77,050 


21,36,179' 


November 














B 


94,01,599 


53,47,915- 


December 
















60,63,899 


45,31,669 


January 
















35,19,495 


33,92,777 


February 












. 


36,78,385 29,74,729' 


March 
















42,17,756 


32,47,785 


Total 


4,29,97,333 


2,97,65,767 


Less Refunds and Adjustments for the year . 


84,87,635 


44,99,983 




3,45,09,698 


9,52,65,784 



QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS. 66 

: Statement showing receipts under Income-tax for the, Bombay City for the year 

2983 ~S 4 





( 


jlross collection 


Gross collection 


Month. 




under 


under 






Income-tax. 


Super-tax. 






Rs. 


R.. 


April 




15,77,075 


7,78,268 


May 




15,22,126 


3,25,239 . 


June 




13,35,713 


7,70,359 


Jnly 




8,62,804 


2,31,813 


August 




18,22,811 


6.37,809 


September 




27,46,977 


12,61,382 


October 




25,51,439 


11,71,142 


November 




30,06,135 


11,89,980 


December 




41,92,498 


22,61,865 


January 




32,98,118 


18,04,090 


February 




26,43,464 


20,12,292 


March 




37,36,976 


39,86,448 


Total 


I*" 


2,92,9e,lC6 


1,61,19,677 


Less lief 11 nds and Adjustments for the year 




43,32,2C8 


17,94,420 






2,49,03,928 


1,4-6,25,257 


Statement showing receipts under Income-tax 


fo 


r the fjombay C 


*ity for the year 


1924-25. 












(h'oss collection 


Gvcss collation 


Month. 




under 


under 






Income-tax. 


Super-tnx. 


^** 


** 


* Ks. 


Ks. 


April. ^^^^* 


. 


13,79,782 


12,81,52(5 


May . . . . . ^^"^ 


. 


5,52,046 


1,13,098 


June .... ^^X^ ^^ 


tf^ 


' 7,52,680 


], 44,980 


July . . . _**^ - ^>X*^ 


. 


19,18,502 


11,29,391 


August . j** ^' AQ' ^^^^ 


. 


20,79,585 


13,03,626 


September ^^-^\ v Q . ^^^^^ 


. 


20,08,232 


6,49,962 


October v^ 5^- ^^^^^ 




24,58,589 


8,92,394 


November \ ^^^^ .... 


. 


18,12,520 


0,58,324 


December ^^^^ ..... 


. 


20,29,937 


5,25,609 


January 


. 


26,34,082 


12,82,723 


February 




17,61,825 


11,79,510 


March 





20,97,206 


20,74,599 


Total 





2,14,84,992 


1,12,35,748 


Less Refunds and Adjustments for the year . 





23,19,287 


3,22,661 






1,91,65,706 


1,09,13,087 



56 COUNCIL OF STATE. [15lH FEB. 1926. 

FALLING OFF IN CUSTOMS REVENUE IN THE BOMBAY PaBSjDENcy ON 
CHEMICALS AND MILL STORES USED BY THE TEXTILE INDUSTRY. 

82. THE HONOURABLE MR. PHIROZE C. SETHNA : (a) Has there been 
any falling off in customs revenue in the Bombay Presidency on chemical* 
and mill stores used by the textile industry? 

(6) If so, will Government be pleased to indicate in round sums the loss- 
to revenue during the last two years for which accounts are available? 

THE HONOURABLE MR. A. C. Me WAITERS : (a) No, so far as can be- 
ascertained from the figures available. 
(6) Does not arise. 

ABOLITION OF THE STAMP DUTY ox CHEQUES. 

83. THE HONOURABLE MK. PHIROZE C. SETHNA: Will Government 
be pleased to state whether they have considered the abolition oTthc stamp 
duty on cheques in connection with the Report of the Blackett Committee 
on the proposed development of banking resources of the country? 

THE HONOURABLE MR. A. C. McWATTERS : The reply is in the negative, 
but tho matter will receive further consideration in connection with the- 
action to be taken on the Report. 

SUBJECTS DISCUSSKD AT THE FINANCE MEMBERS' CONFERENCE HELD IN 

NOVEMBER, 1925. 

84. THE HONOURABLE MR. PHIROZE C. SETHNA: Will Government 
be pleased to state : 

(a) what was the agenda of the Finance Members' Conference which 

met last November; 

(b) what resolutions, if any, were passed; 

(c) on what subjects common understanding was reached; and 

(d) what were the other topics left over for next year's discussion? 

THE HONOURABLE MR. A. C. McWATTERS : I would invite the Honour- 
able Member's attention to the reply given by me a few days ago to a 
similar question by the Honourable Mr. Haroon Jaffer. 

THE HONOURABLE MR. V. EAMADAS PANTULU : Will Government be 
pleased to consider the desirability of admitting members of the Standing 
Finance Committee to this Conference in the future? 

THE HONOURABLE MR. A. C. McWATTERS : I think, Sir, that it is very 
unlikely that this suggestion could be -adopted, because this Conference is 
a purely informal conference for interchange of views between representa- 
tives of the provinces and of tho Government of India. It does not take 
the place in any way of official communications with the provinces. 

THE HONOURABLE RAO SAJIIB DR. U. RAMA RAO: Was any question 
raised in the Conference by the Madras member in respect of the remission 
of provincial contributions, and what was the decision arrived at? 

THE HONOURABLE MR. A. C. McWATTERS,: Tho proceedings, as I have 
explained, are not public and I cannot answer that question. 



QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS. 57 

TRANSFER op WORK DONE BY THE BANK OF ENGLAND ON BEHALF OF 

THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR INDIA TO THE BRANCH OF THE 

IMPERIAL BANK OF INDIA IN LONDON. 

85. THE HONOURABLE MR. PH1ROZE C. SETHNA: Will Government 
be pleased to state : 

(a) in what directions contracts for different purposes between the 

Bank of England and the Secretary of State have been modi- 
fied after the opening of a branch of the Imperial Bank of 
India in London; and 

(b) is there any item of work which the Bank of England is now 

doing which cannot be done by the Imperial Bank of India, 
London, for the Government of India? If so, what and why? 

THE HONOURABLE MR. A. C. McWATTEBS : (a) The management of 
India Rupee Loans and the accounts of the High Commissioner have been 
transferred from the Bank of England to the Imperial Bank of India. 

(b) The Bank of England docs also at present the work in connection 
with the manufacture of Indian Currency notes and acts as the banker of 
the Secretary of State. As the Honourable Member is aware, it is hoped 
that the former work will be 'transferred to India in the not distant future; 
as regards the latter, I invite the attention oE the Honourable Member to 
sections 23 to 25 of the Government of India Act. 

BROKERAGE PAID IN LONDON BY THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR INDIA 
ox ins FINANCIAL OPERATIONS. 

86. THE HONOURABLE MR. PHIKOZE C. SETHNA: (a) In. the last 
twelve months, for which complete accounts are available, will Government 
be pleased to state what amount of brokerage has been paid by tho Secre- 
tary of State in London on his financial operations? 

(b) Is there a recognised broker to the Secretary of State? 

(c) Do Government anticipate any saving of these brokerage charges by 
working through the London branch of the Imperial Bank of India? 

THE HONOURABLE MR. A. C. McWATTERS : (a) The brokerage paid in 
1924-25 amounted to 11,328-11-9. 

(b) The reply is in the affirmative. 

(c) The question is, I think, hypothetical. The work for which these 
brokerage payments were made cannot bo transferred to the Imperial Bank 
without an alteration in the constitution, though changes in tho procedure 
might of course reduce its volume. The subject is of course closely con- 
nected with the matters now under the consideration of the Eoyal Commis- 
sion on. Currency. 

THE HONOURABLE MR. PHIROZE C. SETHNA: Has the amount of 
11,000 odd, as stated by the Honourable Member, been paid to one firm 
of brokers or more than one firm, and, if so,, to how many? 

THE HONOURABLE MR. A. C. McWATTERS: I believe the India Office 
brokers are Messrs. Nivison & Co. I think there is only one firm. 



58 iCOUNCIL OF STATE, [15TH FEB. 1926. 

THE BAWLA MURDER CASE. 

87. THE HONOURABLE MR. PHIBOZE C. SETHNA: (a) Has the 
attention of .Government 'been drawn to the opinion expressed by the 
Honourable Mr. Justice Crump of the Bombay High Court in his charge 
to the Jury in the Bawla .murder case : 

"It is possible, whoever .the assailants were, that there were persons behind them 

-who we cannot precisely indicate There may be other persons who were interested 

.'in kidnapping Mumtaz. We know nothing of them. Indeed we know from the accused 

themselves that there was a, wish to take her back to Indore..- when you consider the 

materials placed before you, they indicate that Indore is the place from, where this 

attack emanated. ' ' ? 

(b) Are Government taking any steps to bring to justice the persbns 
'referred to by the learned Judge as being behind the accused? 

(c) If not. why not? 

THE HONOURABLE MR. J. CKEBAK : (a) Yes. 

(b) I -am unable to add to the information which has already been made 
;public. 

(c) Docs not arise. 

DISCONTINUANCE OP THE ISSUE OF PASSPORTS. 

88. THE HONOURABLE MR. PHIBOZE C. SETHNA.: (a) Has the 
attention of Government been drawn to >a leaderette in the Times of India 
of January llth headed ''Passports 11 ? 

(b) Do Government propose to take any action in the matter of dis- 
continuing the issue of passports ? 

THE HONOURABLE MR. J. P. THOMPSON,: (a) Yes. 
(6) No: 

TUB HONOURABLE MR. PHLROZE C. SETHNA: Is the reply to (b) 
"No", because it has to do with some International Conventions or because 
of some similar reason? 

THE HONOURABLE MR. J. P. THOMPSON : 'If the Honourable Member 
wishos to have *ray more detailed information on this delicate question, I 
shall bo obliged if ho will put his question in waiting and give due notice of 
It', 

EXPENDITURE ON THE COLLECTION AND SUPPLY OF AERIAL INFORMATION 
BY THE METEOROLOGICAL DEPARTMENT TO THE ROYAL AIR FORCE. 

80. THE HONOURABLE MR. PHIBOZE C. SETHNA: (a) Will Govern- 
ment state if it is a fact that a considerable amount of money has recently 
been spent by the Meteorological Department on the collection and supply of 
aerial information to the Royal Air Force? 

(6) Has the obligation of the Department to perform this special work 
in any way hindered its researches and general services for the benefit of 
agriculture? 

THE HONOURABLE MR. A. "H. LEY: (a) The amount provided in the 
current financial year for the purpose is Bs. 21,800, of which Bs. 7,600 is 



QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS. oO 

non-recurring. Owing to some delay in the introduction of the scheme the 
actual expenditure is likely to be less. 

(b) No. On the contrary the information collected for the Royal Air 
Force is of considerable value to the Meteorological Department, for general 
purposes. 

PROVISION OF ADDITIONAL FUNDS FOll THE DEVELOPMENT OF DlSOOVEUIES 
AFFECTING THE FOHECASTINfi- OF ItAlNFALL IX. INDIA. 

90. THE HONOURABLE MR. PH1KOZE C. SETHNA : (a) Has the 
attention of Government been drawn to the statement in the latest 
Administration Report of their Meteorological Department that it has in 
recent years made important discoveries affecting the forecasting of rainfall 
in India? 

(b) Is it a fact that the development of these discoveries is hampered by 
the lack of funds? 

(c) Will Government be pleased to state what steps they propose to take 
to develop these discoveries and whether they will, in the forthcoming 
Budget, allot additional funds for such development? 

TUB HONOURABLE Mil. A. H. LEY: (a) and (6). Yes. 

(c) Government have under their consideration proposals for the. increase 
of the superior staff of the Department and for the removal of its head- 
quarters from Simla to Poona. Necessary steps are being taken to provide 
additional funds for both schemes in the Budget of the Department for 
the year 1926-27. 

HlfiSTOIlATION OF THE TlillOrGU FlUST AND SECOND CLASS COMPOSITE 
liOGlE BETWEEN HOWHAH AND LAHORE. 

91. THE HONOURABLE BAI BAHADUR LALA EAM SAEAN DAS: Will 
the Government kindly state when they intend to restore the through 
running of a first and second class composite bogie between How rah and 
Lahore ? 

THE HONOURABLE MB. D. T. CHAD WICK: A copy of the question will 
be sent to the Agents concerned in order that the suggestion may be 
brought to their notice, but the Government cannot say whether il c;in to 
accepted and they do not propose to issue formal orders on the subject. 
The Honourable Member might get tho question raised in the Agents' 
Local Advisory Committees. 

SAVINGS EFFECTED AND INCREASE IX EFFICIENCY OBTAINED BY THE 

INTRODUCTION or TITE DIVISIONAL SYSTEM ox STATE KAII.UAYS. 

92. THE HONOURABLE BAI BAHADUR LALA EAM SAEAN DAS : 
(a) Will the Government kindly state what financial saving has been 
effected and what increase in efficiency obtained by the introduction of the 
Divisional System on each of the State Eailways? 

(b) What was the number of officers in each class- in each department 
and on each of the State Eailways before the. introduction of this system 
and what it is now? 



60 COUNCIL OF STATE. [15TH FEB. 1926. 

(c) What is the percentage of working expenses against receipts under* 
the new system now and what was it before the introduction of this scheme? 

THE HONOUJIABLE MR. D. T. CHAD WICK : (a) The Divisional System 
was introduced on the Great Indian Peninsula Railway from 1st November, 
]922, on the North Western Ilailway from 1st October, 1924, and on the 
East Indian Railway from 20th February, 1925. It is not possible to state 
in figures the saving which has been effected in expenditure or the increase 
obtained in efficiency as a direct result of introducing this system on these 
railways. 

(b) The total number of officers on the North Western Railway and the 
combined East Indian qnd Oudh and Rohilkhand Railway before and after 
the introduction of the Divisional System was respectively : 

North Western Railway 224 and 214. 

East Indian and Oudh and Rohilkband Railway 295 and 278. 
As regards the details for each department separately, no useful com- 
parison can be made because with the introduction of the Divisional System 
a number of the appointments are common to all the principal depart- 
ments. As regards the Great Indian Peninsula Railway, the Divisional 
System was introduced over 2 years before the Railway was taken over 
by the State and figures of reductions are therefore not readily available. 

(c) The Honourable Member will find in Statement 7 of Volume II of 
the. Report on Indian Railways, page 50, the percentage of working expenses 
to gross earnings for each railway for the financial year 1924-25. Similar 
statements are to bo found in Volume II of the Report for the previous 
year. The Honourable Member will see that naturally from these statistics 
the changes in these ratios towards which the reorganisation on the Divi- 
sional System is only one factor. 

ALLOWANCES G i ANTED TO FuoN n iEii TITBES rou THE PROTECTION or 
THE KHTBEU RA'LNVAY. 

93. THE HONOURABLE RAI BAHADUR LALA RAM SARAN DAS : 
Will the Government kindly state whether it has given any sort of grant 
or allowance to frontier tribes or Militia to guard the track of the new 
Khyber Railway? If so, what is the amount and period of such expen- 
diture? 

THE HONOURABLE MR. J. P. THOMPSON: Yes, Sir. The ultimate 
responsibility for the safety of the line rests with the Afridis and the 
Shinwaris whose allowances were increased in 1921 for their co-operation 
over the railway by Rs. 1,12,000 annually. For the actual protection of 
the line 354 Khassadars are at present employed at an annual cost of 
Rs. 1,41,440. 

GUARANTEE OF APPOINTMENTS IN THE RAILWAY SERVTCF TO STUDENTS 
OF THE MACLAGAN ENGINEERING COLLEGE, LAHORE. 

94. THE HONOURABLE RAI BAHADUR LALA BAM SAEAN DAS: Will 
the Government kindly state whether they propose to guarantee some 
appointments every year in their railway service for students who have 
successfully completed the course of Mechanical Engineers in the Maclagan 
Engineering College, Mughulpura, Lahore? If the answer be in the nega- 
tive, will they state- the reason? If the answer be in the affirmative, 



QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS. 61 

will they kindly state what steps they propose to take to bring these students 
into 



THE HONOURABLE MR. D. T. CHAD WICK: Government cunnot 
guarantee posts to any particular college. It is contemplated that selected 
youths will be trained by Government, both in practice and theory, in this 
country and in England, in order to fit them for the superior branch of the 
Mechanical Engineering Department of State Railways. 

THE HONOURABLE RAI BAHADUR LALA HAM SAHAN DAS : Do not the 
present mechanical engineering colleges meet the requirements ol the 
railways? There is the Maclagan Engineering College at Lahore and 1 
should like to know whether students who pass out of that college are tit 
for employment in the railway service? 

THE HONOURABLE MR. D. T. CHADWICK : The answer, Sir, is that 
the students from any college will be eligible for selection for the further 
training that is required by the railways if they attain certain standards. 
As to the special merits of the Maclagan Engineering College in Lahore, 
I am afraid I have no personal knowledge whatever. 

THE HONOURABLE EAI BAHADUR LALA 11AM SAEAN DAS : Will the 
Honourable Member kindly inquire and inform this House whether the 
Maclagan Engineering College does or does not fulfil the railway purpose for 
which it has been mainly founded? 

THE HONOURABLE MR. D. T. CHADWICK: I think the Honourable 
Member must wait till the scheme that the Hallway Board has in prepara- 
tion is published. 

INTRODUCTION OF THE AUTOMATIC COUPLER SYSTEM ON BROAD GAUGE 

RAILWAYS. 

95. THE HONOURABLE EAI BAHADUR LALA RAM SAEAN DAS: Will 
the Government kindly state whether it is under contemplation to introduce 
the automatic coupler system on broad gau^e railways in India? Will 
they state what will be the total cost of this new scheme, including 
the cost of strengthening the centre part of the underframes of rolling 
fetock? Why is it proposed to introduce this system? What amount do 
the Government expect to realise from the sale of buffers, and draw-bars 
scrapped, and what is their present value? 

EXPECTED SAVINGS CONSEQUENT ON THE INTRODUCTION OF THE 
AUTOMATIC COUPLER SYSTEM ON BROAD GAUGE RAILWAYS. 

96. THE HONOURABLE RAI BAHADUR LALA EAM SARAN DAS: Will 
the Government kindly state what savings they expect to make per ton 
per mile ori these long distance trains with automatic couplers as compared 
with the present draw-bar system, laking into consideration the loss involved 
in disposing of the draw-bars, buffers, etc., and the cost involved in n ur- 
chasing the new automatic couplers and of strengthening the centre part 
of the underframes of rolling stock? 

THE HONOURABLE MR. D. T. CHADWICK : I propose to reply to 
questions Nos. 95 and 96 together. 

The Honourable Member is referred to the speech of the Honourable 
Sir (then Mr.) Clement Hindley, in the Council of State meeting, Hated 

B 2 



62 COUNCIL OF STATE. [15TH FEB. 1026. 

120th February, 1925, and the debate on this question in the Legislative 
Assembly on the 28th February', 1925. 

2. The final figures relating to the cost of the whole scheme are not 
available as important factors affecting that cost are still under further 
investigation. 



ELECTION TO THE PANEL OF THE STANDING COMMITTEE ON 

EMIGRATION. 

THE HONOURABLE THE PRESIDENT : With reference to the motion 
adopted by the House on Wednesday last, I have to announce to the House 
that nominations to the panel of the Standing Committee on Emigration 
will be received by the Secretary till 12 noon on Thursday next, and that 
in the event of an election being necessary the election will be held on 
Monday, the 22nd February. 

BILLS PASSED BY THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY LAID ON 

THE TABLE. 

THK SECRETARY OF THE COUNCIL : Sir, in accordance with Rule 25 
of the Indian Legislative Rules, I lay on the table copies of a Bill to amend 
the Presidency-towns Insolvency Act, 1909, and the Provincial Insolvency 
Act, ]920, and of a Bill to consolidate and amend the law relating to the 
naturalization in British India of aliens resident therein, which were passed 
by the Legislative Assembly at its meeting held on the 10th February, 1926. 

RESOLUTION RE APPOINTMENT OF A ROYAL COMMISSION TO 
INVESTIGATE INTO THE WORKING OF THE INDIAN CONSTI- 
TUTION. 

THK HONOURABLE THE PRESIDENT : I understand that some arrange- 
ment has been arrived at in regard to the first Resolution* in the name of 
the Honourable Mr. Sethna. I should like to have that confirmed in order 
not to embarrass the Honourable Member by calling on him to move the 
Resolution. 

THE HONOURABLE MR. J. CRERAR (Home Secretary) : Sir, in view 
of the great importance of the issues raised by my Honourable friend's 
Resolution, the Honourable the Home Member is particularly anxious to 
be in tliis House when the Resolution is moved. He is unfortunately 
dd.abied by very urgent business in another place to-day, and it is proposed, 
with the concurrence of my Honourable friend opposite, that the Resolu- 
lion standing in his name be placed. on the list of business on Thursday, 
the 38th instant. I trust that course will commend itself to the House. 



RESOLUTION RE THE ROYAL COMMISSION ON AGRICULTURE. 
THE HONOURABLE MR. K. C. ROY (Bengal: Nominated Non-official): 
With your permission, Sir, I beg to move : 

" That this Council recommends to the Governor General in Council to lay on the 
table of this House the correspondence that has passed between the Government of 
India, the Secretary of State and the Provincial Governments on the question of the 
appointment of a Royal Commission on Agriculture ". 

*" This Council recommends to the Governor General in Council to urge upon His 
Majesty's Government the appointment forthwith of a Royal Commission to investigate 
and inquire into the working of the present Indian constitution and to formulate a 
scheme for the establishment of responsible government in India. 11 ; 



ROYAL COMMISSION ON AGRICULTURE. 63 

Sir, I make no apology to this House for bringing this very simple 
motion before them. This is only a formal motion and asks for the publi- 
cation of the papers, and I feel already indebted to the Honourable Sir 
Muhammad Habibullah, whose appointment as the Leader of this House 
we all welcome, for placing certain papers and correspondence that passed 
between the Government of India and the Provincial Governments on the 
table of the Legislative Assembly, and I hope, Sir, he will meet our wishes 
by placing the papers and correspondence that passed between the Govern- 
ment of India and the Secretary of State on the table of this House. Sir, 
I have adopted this normal Parliamentary formula to give this House an 
opportunity of debating this important question, that is the appointment} 
of a Eoyal Commission on Agriculture, and I hope the House will bear with 
me for a few minutes on the subject. 

From the correspondence which has been placed on the table of the 
Legislative Assembly, it is evident that the initiative for the Royal Com- 
mission did not come from the Provinces. It either came from the 
Government of India or from the Secretary of State. In my opinion, it 
was a very unusual procedure to adopt when we consider that Agriculture 
is a provincial transferred subject. I however find, Sir, that when the 
official communication from the Government of India was sent out to the 
provinces, it met with a cold response from some of the major provinces, 
while others welcomed it. For-the benefit of this House, I will read only 
two letters, one from the Government of Bombay, which lias given a very 
cogent answer to the Government of India. The Bombay Government 
states : 

11 I am to state that in the opinion of this Government the problems of agriculture 
are largely local in character and even the results of general research frequently require 
prior local investigation before they can be applied successfully to any particular area. 
The Government of India are aware that much useful work has been done in this 
Presidency as in other Provinces in defining local problems and determining their 
solution. An extension of these activities has been limited only by the financial 
stringency from which this Presidency, in common with other Provinces, has suffered. 
The Government of Bombay recognise that the findings of a Royal Commission on 
Agriculture would throw much light on numerous important problems connected with 
that industry. In particular, should the appointment of the Commission result, as is 
anticipated in para. 1 of your letter, in research work on a larger scale than hitherto 
being undertaken by the Government of India, it would be of very great value. The 
Government of Bombay, however, believe that much of the work of the Commission 
would require to be supplemented by local investigation which they, and possibly other 
Provincial Governments, may bo unable to undertake in their present situation ". 

I will now come, Sir, to the Government of Bihar, which is presided 
over by a distinguished Civil Servant. After welcoming in a few sentences 
the appointment of a Eoyal Commission, the Government of Bihar says : 

" The Local Government think, however, that the attention of the Eoyal Commission 
should be called, at the outset, to the necessity of considering separately the problems 
of the various parts of India. Owing to local circumstances, these problems vary in 
the different provinces, and it would seem desirable that the Commission should report 
separately on the circumstances of the main divisions of the country in the same way 
as was done by the Indian Sugar Committee. While it may be possible to recommend 
the general lines of policy applicable to India as a whole, the area is so vast and the 
local conditions are so diverse that if such recommendations are to be of practical use, 
v y J . 1 S Ust be 8U PP Iemente( * b y specific advice as to the special measures required in 
the different parts of India, which have so far developed on different lines." 

Against these opinions, Sir, there are the views of the other Provincial' 
Governments, They .have stipulated that. the importance, of the question 
of land revenue, land assessment and agricultural indebtedness should be 



64 COUNCIL OF STATB. [15TH FEB. 1926. 

[Mr. A. C. Boy.] 

clearly kept out of the purview of this Commission. They have also stipu- 
lated that they should be given a chance of expressing an opinion on the 
personnel of the Royal Commission, and they think that there should be no 
interference with the ministerial responsibility in the provinces. Under 
these circumstances, the question is, whether my Honourable friend Sir 
Muhammad Habibullah was right in advising the appointment of a RoyaJ 
Commission on Agriculture. 

This now brings me to a most important question, and that is the rights 
and privileges of this House. After the two memorable speeches which the 
Secretary of State and His Excellency the Viceroy made last autumn, there 
was a belief that a Eoyal Commission would be appointed. The matter 
was brought to the notice of the Legislative Assembly by Mr. Ranga Iyer, 
who asked: "Do the Secretary of State for India and the Governor General 
in Council agree that a special Commission should be appointed for this 
purpose, and Mr. Bhore on behalf of the Government replied : 

" A special commission is not in the present circumstances considered necessary." 

and only two months after this we have the announcement of the appoint- 
ment of a Royal Commission. Now, Sir, in appointing this Koyal Commis- 
sion, the Government of India have followed a peculiar procedure. The 
appointment of a Eoyal Commission, Sir, I take it, is the prerogative of 
the Crown, and the Crown appoints a Eoyal Commission on the advice oi 
the British Government, and possibly of the Government of India, because 
the Government of India is the agent of the British Government in this 
country. But a novel procedure has been followed. All the Provincial 
Governments have, been consulted not only on the terms, but also as to 
the advisability of appointing a Eoyal Commission. And who were th 
people left out? The Central Legislature. The Central Legislature, Sir, 
1ms ot to find the money. It has to pass Bills, if any are required 'on the 
findings of the Eoyal Commission. I think, Sir, in this matter a most 
unjust treatment has been meted out to this House. 

I will now, Sir, refer briefly to the terms of reference. I feel very 
strongly that the Government of India have tied down the Eoyal Commis- 
sion too much. Thev have given a guarantee to the provinces that the 
Eoyal Commission will not in any way trench upon the ministerial field. 
But this is not the practice in other parts of the British Empire, parti- 
cularly in the Dominions where agriculture is the primary industry. I will 
onlv give you the instance of what is done in Canada. It is provided in 
section 95 of the British North America Act that: 

11 in each province the Legislature may make laws in relation to agriculture in the 
Province." 

It is also declared that : 

" the Parliament of Canada may from time to time make laws in relation to 
agriculture in all or nny of the provinces, and that any law of the Legislature of a 
.province shall have effect in and for the province as long and as far only as it is 
not repugnant to any Act of the Parliament of Canada." 

In other words the right of concurrent legislation by the Cominion 
Pnrlinment and Provincial Legislatures is expressly established Itt the 



ROYAL COMMISSION ON AGRICULTURE. 65 

Dominion. What is the cause of our departure? Why should not the 
Commission have a free hand in the matter? Why do you tie them down? 

Now, Sir, I come to another important factor, that is an important 
omission from the terms of reference. The terms of reference make a 
great show of rural economy and indicate a great desire to 'develop rural 
welfare and prosperity. But how can this be done when you have left out 
of the terms of reference the land revenue? You have left out the question 
of assessment. This question has not been examined for a very long 
time. It was examined by the Hobhouse Committee in 1907, not from the 
point of view of rural economy or agricultural welfare,, but from the point 
of efficient administration and administrative control. It was also tackled 
in a very small way by Lord Chelmsford and Mr. Montagu in connection 
with the Reforms Scheme. Now that we are considering rural economy 
and rural welfare we have to consider this question. The Government of 
India are afraid of vested interests; they are afraid of meeting the situa- 
tion to-day; but, Sir, the proletariat, which is gaining authority, will very 
soon assert itself and will demand a complete re-examination of rural coa- 
litions in India. We are only deferring the evil day and we are doing 
nothing. In moving my Resolution, I should like to make it absolutely 
clear that I am not opposed to the Royal Commission. In fact I welcome 
it, but I am sorry that the great object which His Excellency has in view 
and which he has more than once emphasized in this House will not be 
fully realised by the Commission which my frienH the Honourable Sir 
Muhammad Habibullah wishes to appoint. With these words I commend 
my Resolution to the notice of the House. 

THE HONOURABLE MR. PHIROZE C. SETHNA (Bombay : Non-Muham- 
madan) : Sir, the Honourable Mr. Roy, in moving his Resolution, began in 
a manner as if to imply that .he did not approve of the appointment of r,he 
Royal Agricultural Commission. Proceeding further he has given us his 
reasons for what ho finds wanting in the proposed terms of reference and 
he has told us that he certainly favours the appointment of 'the Commis- 
sion. I welcome the Resolution because it will give the Honourable Mem- 
bers of this House an opportunity of knowing how the terms of reference 
were arrived at, etc. It seems that my friend the Honourable Mr. Roy 
has had an advantage over us because, if I heard him correctly, he has been 
supplied by the Department concerned with the correspondence exchanged 
between the Government of India and the different provinces. We have 
not seen the same, and I therefore support this Resolution so that the 
Members of this House may know what correspondence has passed in re- 
gard to the appointment of this Commission. 

Personally I am very strongly in favour of the appointment of this Com- 
mission. I have advocated this frequently. Even in the Council of State 
nearly three years ago I moved a Resolution asking for the appointment 
of a Committee for a survey of the economic conditions of the people of 
India with special reference to the conditions of the agricultural population, 
and I find, Sir, that His Excellency the Viceroy was pleased to make a 
reference to that Resolution in the course of the speech which he made to 
this House six days ago. In this Council and outside I have always urged 
that because three men out of four in this country live on the income of 
the soil, improvement in the conditions of agriculture must be piven greater 
attention to than is at present done both by the Central and the Provincial 
Governments. I may be permitted, with your permission, to quote a few 



66 COUNCIL OF STATE. [15TH FEB. 192& 

[Mr. Phiroze C. Se'thna.] 

lines rfrom a speech I made just a year ago at the annual meeting of the- 
Central Bank of India. I observed then: 

" Agriculture, the premier industry of the country, has a great future before it, 
but it needs to be fostered, as is being tried in Madras, by institutions such as land 
mortgage bank*. I commend the farsightedness of the Madras Government to the 
Government of Bombay as well as other Provincial Governments in the matter. As 
regards industries, the example of Japan and Germany should be pressed into service 
and industrial banks started under proper control by the State. As long ago as 1919, 
Government were willing to appoint a committee to inquire into the subject, but nothing 
has so far been done." 

I said this 12 months ago, and I am glad to find that something definite 
has been done and that a Commission is to be appointed. 

Another reason why I welcome this Resolution is that the announcement 
of the appointment of this Commission had created a suspicion in the minds 
of some people and reference has been made in the press to perhaps some 
ulterior motives which the Government have in view. His Excellency the 
Viceroy 1 know has answered that charge, but a perusal of the papers 
asked for in the Resolution between the Government of India and the 
Secretary of State 1 will convince the whole country, and that portion of the 
press particularly which 1 have referred to, that there is no such ulterior 
motive behind it, and for that reason 1 trust the Honourable Member in 
charge will welcome the Resolution of my friend Mr. K. C. Roy. 

One other reason for asking for the papers is that if they are submitted 
to the House, it will enable the Members to know and to see if any recom- 
me'ndations have been made by the Government of India to the Provincial 
Governments or by the Provincial Governments to the Government of 
India in regard to the personnel of this Commission. As this House is 
aware, there was much criticism in regard to the personnel of the Royal 
Currency Commission. I do not mean to refer to that at any length 
to-day. I will only say in brief that if we jgo by cities, it was held, and 
rightly held, that out of 10 members of the Royal Currency Commission, as 
many as five had intimate relations with the trade of Calcutta, whilst there 
was only one representative from the city of Bombay ; and I am sure that 
Government will admit that Bombay is as large arid important a commer- 
cial city as Calcutta, or oven more so. If next, different businesses are taken 
into account, then again we find that, whilst there are five members of the 
Currency Commission intimately connected with, the Imperial Bank of 
India, and one member intimately connected with exchange tanks, and 
although the Honourable the Finance Member is very anxious that Indian 
banking should prosper and be greatly increased, yet not one single mem- 
ber connected with any of the Indian banks has founcl a place on that Com- 
mission. If these papers which the Honourable Mr. Roy has asked for are 
placed on the table, it will enable Members to make suggestions to the 
Honourable Member in charge for Agriculture in regard to the personnel. 
We quite realise that this is the prerogative of His Majesty the King), but 
surely, Sir, His Majesty is not personally acquainted with the men he 
appoints or knows their qualifications. He has perforce to rely on the 
recommendations made by the men on the spot. 

I would certainly urge that certain claims are not ignored. I hope 
that the Forest Department will not be ignored. Forestry has much to do 
with Agriculture, and I for one would certainly suggest that a forest ex- 
pert be put on this Commission. Further, I do hope that an industrialist 



ROYAL COMMISSION ON AGRICULTURE. ft] 

connected with the textile industry of this country is also put on this 
Commission. The House may naturally ask why an industrialist is connected 
with the textile industry? The reason is this. India is the second largest 
producer of cotton in the whole world. A very large proportion of it is 
consumed by the mills in the country. Therefore, textile industrialists 
must have a say in this matter because of the kind of cotton that they re- 
quire for their own wants and because of the cotton that is necessary for 
export purposes. And in this connection it may interest the House to 
know, if they are not aware already, that several textile industrialists 
on the Bombay side are largely interested in the cultivation of large staple 
cotton in Sind and elsewhere, and that, Sir, to my mind is a very strong 
jeason for not leaving out such an industrialist from the personnel of this 
Commission. 

Again, Sir, as the Commerce Department may well be aware, whilst at 
the present moment a very large number of bales are exported to Japan it 
is quite possible that in the near (future if the staple of cotton grown in 
this country is not improved there will bo a considerable diminution in the 
export of Indian cotton to Japan. Japan wants to be independent 01 
India if she can in the matter of its cotton purchases. Japan has large 
interests in China. They are already growing cotton there to a certain 
extent, but Chinese cotton has a very short stapJe, and so far they have not 
been able to grow cotton of the same staple as, say, Broach. Therefore, it 
is to our interest to grow more cotton of the larger staple so that we m;iy 
not lose the markets to which we export our cotton to-day, and which we 
are bound to lose if no proper interest is taken in tliis question. I therefore 
appeal to the Honourable Member in charge to consider the suggestions 
I have made, and I do hope the personnel will be such that there will be 
no room for criticism in the case of this Agricultural Commission as there 
was in the case of the Royal Currency Commission. With these remarks I 
stronpjly support the Resolution of my Honourable friend Mr. K. C. Roy. 

THE HONOURABLE Sin MUHAMMAD HABIBULLAH (Member for 
Education, Health and Lands) : Sir, it is indeed a matter of very great 
pleasure to me that on the very first non-official day of the first Session 
of this reconstituted House the place of honour has been given to a 
subject of such vital importance to India. Indeed, it is one more proof, 
if proof were needed, of the earnestness and the abiding interest which 
the Members of this House have always evinced in the amelioration cf the 
condition of the agricultural classes of this pre-eminently agricultural 
country. It must be confessed that agriculture is, and will continue to 
be, the primary industry of India. We all know that 3 out of 4 people 
in this country depend on agriculture for their livelihood. It was I think 
Dean Swift who uttered the truism that anyone who enables two blades 
of grass or two ears of corn to grow where only one grew before is a real 
patriot. I therefore, Sir, welcome this opportunity of hearing the views 
of this House in regard to this important question of agriculture. 

T think I may dispose of the Resolution now under discussion in one 
single word. As the Honourable the Mover of the Resolution has already 
pointed out, on a demand made by the other House, I have already laH 
on the table the correspondence which passed between the Government of 
India and the Provincial Governments and from which the Honourable 
the Mover has already quoted. This Resolution now asks me to lay on 



d68 COUNCIL OF STATE. [15TH FEB. 1926. 

[Sir Muhammad Habibullah.] 

the table of this House not only the correspondence which passed be- 
tween the Government of India and the Provincial Governments but also 
that which passed between the Government of India and the Secretary 
of State. 1 may at once say that I accept the Resolution an^i agree to 
pJuce on the table that correspondence* as well. 

I think I may pass in brief review a few of the observations I shall 
certainly not call them criticisms, which have been made by the Honour- 
able Mr. K. C. Roy. He seems to suspect that two, at any rate, of 
the Local Governments have been seized with a feeling of lukewarmness 
in welcoming the constitution of this Commission. He will give me credit 
if 1 affirm that 1 am more accustomed to read official correspondence than 
he has had the opportunity of doing, and I am in a better position to 
interpret the language of official documents than he can be. I challenge 
my Honourable friend to point out a single word in the communications of 
those two Governments wherein they express anything like dissent from 
the proposal that was put forward before them. They have, in common 
with other Provincial Governments, welcomed the Royal Commission, but 
they add or they make some supplementary suggestions. The Govern- 
ment of Bombay very naturally in its present financial position sees that 
if any recommendations are made by the Royal Commission which would 
involve an additional financial burden, it may probably be impossible for 
it to foot the Bill; and it has therefore, if I read that Governments mind 
correctly, registered its claim in advance for such financial assistance as 
it may have to apply for when the recommendations of the Royal Com- 
mission are finally known. The Bihar and Orissa Government has very 
rightly brought to our notice the fact that besides questions of all-India 
interest, there are questions of peculiar interest and peculiar difficulties 
which confront every province, and that the Royal Commission had better 
devote some of its time and attention to examining and exploring those 
particular difficulties and favour the provinces with suggestions for their 
solution. We have indeed met that demand by making it quite plain, 
quite clear, that the Royal Commission will, while making investigations 
in any province, put itself in direct communication with the Local Gov- 
ernment and take such evidence as it can with the help and assistance of 
the Minister in charge of Agriculture, co-operation and other departments 
commoted therewith. There is therefore no fear to apprehend: 
12 fcoov. thorc is no idea anywhere that the Royal Commission should 
not try and help each and every province to solve whose difficulties it has 
been established. I may therefore assure my Honourable friend that he 
might for the time being dismiss from his mind any suspicion that any 
Local Government is lukewarm about this Commission. I may give him 
the assurance that every Government welcomes it. 

I think I will take next in order the complaint if I may use such a 
strong word which he made in regard to the change in the attituffe of 
the Government of India, if I have understood him aright, as explained 
in another place in answer to a question which was definitely asked. I 
think he drew our attention to a question that was asked by Mr. Ranga 
Iyer and to the answer given by Government that there was no intention 
at that time of appointing a Royal Commission. Let us be quite sure 
about the dates. The speech of His Excellency the Viceroy to the two 

*The whole of the correspondence is printed as Appendix A to these proceedings. 



ROYAL COMMISSION ON AGRICULTURE. 69 

Houses of the Legislature was made on the 20th of August, 1925; and in 
that speech His Excellency had distinctly and clearly given expression 
to this view: 

" My Government while giving due attention to industries in the restricted sense 
of the term are determined, so far as circumstances permit, not to ne^lect^ the interests 
of what is really the greatest of all Indian industries, namely, agriculture. I know 
from my discussions with the Secretary of State that my Government can rely upon 
his most cordial support of this policy. The direct responsibility of the Government 
of India for agricultural development in the provinces ceased with the inception of the 
Reforms. In view, however, of tho paramount importance of agriculture as the basic 
industry of the people of India of the improbability of Provincial Governments Uging 
in a position to undertake research on the scale required and of the necessity for co- 
ordinating activities in the wide field of agricultural development, the Central Govern- 
ment must continue to play a humble part in agricultural progress." 

And tlion he foreshadowed the appointment of a central Agricultural 
Board to co-ordinate the activities of the various provinces. Well, five. 
days after that speech had been delivered, a question was asked whether 
the Government intended the appointment of a Royal Commission. Five 
days was not Jong enough to have enabled the Government of India to 
have come to a conclusion different from that which His Excellency 
the Viceroy had announced in opening the Session, and the inevitable 
reply therefore was that the Government of India had no present intention 
of embarking on the appointment of a Eoyal Commission; t and in the 
course of his speech on the 20th January, 1926, while, opening the Session 
of the other House His Excellency has given full, exhaustive and cogent 
reasons as to why he and his Government came to the conclusion that 
a question of such magnitude, of such importance and of such vEal interest, 
cannot be solved merely by the establishment of a Central Board r/ 
Agriculture, but that it should be handled in all its bearings by a Eoyal 
Commission, and that he and bis Government bad come to that con- 
clusion with the assent of His Majesty. The interval between the two 
was utilised for the purpose of giving to this important- question that 
consideration which it indeed deserves ; and as a result of that con- 
sideration it was found, and very rightly found, that the interests were so 
diverse, the questions were so complicated, tho issues were so important, 
that nothing short of a Royal Commission could be expected to handle 
them effectively and successfully. 

Well, Sir, I think I have, been next asked, why the Legislature was 
not given an opportunity of expressing its opinion before this Royal Com- 
mission was actually announced. I think I have already made it suffi- 
ciently plain that so far as this *House is concerned, we have been, 
from time to time, supplied by it with its views and opinions as to the 
course of action which would have pleased it most. From tho year 1923, 
definite Resolutions wore being moved in this House advising, suggesting, 
rather pressing, the need, for a comprehensive investigation into the 
agricultural conditions of this wide Empire. Indeed one or two Resolu- 
tions were framed on lines which, if they were read once more, will givo 
a clear indication that they are the lines on which the terms of reference 
are based now. I shall certainly not deny the same credit to the other 
House. Indications have not been wanting even there of the earnestness, 
the enthusiasm and the interest displayed by its Members. They have 
constantly asked questions which suggested that the Government of 
India must take some definite action in this direction. They have tabled 
various Resolutions suggesting the appointment of this committee and 



70 COUNCIL OF STATE. [15TH FEB. 1926. 

[Sir Muhammad Habibullah.j 

that to investigate into particular problems which are germane to the 
agricultural prosperity of India. We have had, therefore, a clear indica- 
tion oi the direction in which the wind is blowing. We knew as a perfect 
certainty that this House as well as the other were eager, were anxious 
that the Government of India should do something for the purpose of 
solving this all-important problem which is at the very root of the welfare, 
happiness and prosperity of no less than three-fourths of the entire popula- 
tion of India. \Ve therefore took time by the forelock and we applied 
our p-iimfc to the consideration of that question; and we in the first instance 
came to the conclusion that this could be solved by merely setting up a 
Central body which would co-ordinate the work of the provinces and 
briny about the desired millennium. We had to revise that view in the 
light of facts which were placed before us. We came, therefore, to the 
deliberate conclusion that we must not any more pursue the idea of 
merely installing a Central Hoard to tackle-, a, problem of this magnitude, 
but that we should call to our aid a, Royal Commission which will survey 
tlu whole fit-Id and make recommendations with the object of bringing aft 
advance in this tlie premier industry of India. I should, therefore, think, 
Sir, that there has been no disrespect shown either to this House or to the 
other in the conclusion which we reached. The Honourable Member 
quoted for onr information the practice and rules which obtain in Canada, 
and inquired why wo have allowed agriculture., which is the basic industry 
of India, to be consigned, so to say, to the limbo of insignificance by it's- 
being called a transferred and 'i provincial subject, and in which the Gov- 
ernment of India find themselves helpless to take any direct action. Well, 
Sir, it may academically be profitable to compare notes with other Domi- 
nions and countries in the world, but I must submit at the same time that 
we have got to remember the fact that our constitution, our procedure and 
our governmental methods are different to those obtaining in either 
Canada, or other Dominions. The Reforms have brought about a change. The 
change is there. We have, all to accept it, and having accepted it, we 
have got to work in a way so as to secure the object in view. The 
object in view undoubtedly was the advancement of the agricultural popu- 
lation. That, we hope, to secure, in spite of the fact that Agriculture 
is a transferred provincial subject, by the appointment of this Eoyal 
Commission. I wish our procedure was different. I wisH agriculture had 
been entirely a central subject, but it is only my pious hope. I cannot 
change the Constitution. I cannot go back on the Reforms. It is, there- 
fore, quite necessary to bear in mind that, while we attempt to do any- 
thing, we should do nothing which wdlild offend against the very frame- 
work of the Reforms. 

Then the Honourable the Mover raised a complaint that wo have 
excluded from the terms of reference questions regarding land ownership, 
land tenure, assessments of land revenue and so on. Sir, my own idea 
of the questions regarding land ownership and land tenure is absolutely 
different from the idea of the Honourable Member who has moved this 
Resolution. I think these questions are so complex and RO complicated 
that it will not be possible for a Commission set up for a different purpose 
to bring under its ambit an investigation, an exploration, into questions 
bristling with such intricacies. Indeed, tliese questions differ from pro- 
vince to province, nay more; they differ in parts of the same provinao. 
This by itself would justify the appointment of a separate Commission.- 



KOYAL COMMISSION ON AGRICULTURE. 71 

and it is not desirable that these intricate questions should be dealt with' 
"by a Commission of this sort which has been set up with a definite object. 
Further, land ownership, land tenure and other cognate questions arc 
-already dealt with by the local Legislatures. There are laws in the various 
provinces which regulate the land ownership and land tenure. These 
laws are amended from time to time as the necessity for them becomes 
urgent. Some of the Local Governments have at the present moment 
legislation on hand for these specific purposes, and I sEould certainly not 
think that it is within the purview of a Commission like this to make 
definite recommendations on these questions. 

As regards the hind revenue assessment and I may add, water ratti 
as well, which in some provinces is regarded as an integral part of the 
land revenue administration, the recommendations of the Joint Parlia- 
mentary Committee to enact legislation regarding them are there. In 
answer to a question by an Honourable Member opposite this morning, 
I said that four provinces liave already introduced this legislation. One 
other province ha.s got it ready, and other provinces have already applied 
their minds, arid it is expected* that that legislation will also be introduced 
in the near future. Here, again, let me repeat that these are not ques- 
tions which could have been included within the purview of the Com- 
mission which we have appointed. "Rut, I confess, Sir, that there may 
be particular occasions when possibU this Commission might have to 
deal with questions regarding land ownership and tenancy, though not 
directly but incidentally, and 1 am tempted to read from one of the 
papers which T placed on the table. The Secretary of State while accepting 
that recommendation has added these observations: 

" I agree that the Commission, if for no other reason than that it is not qualified, 
cannot he expected to deal witli such questions as the relationship between landlords 
and tenants, land revanue systems, assessments or irrigation charges. Nevertheless it 
ifl inevitable that witnesses will refer to them during inquiry, and I do not think that 
the Commission should he precluded from examining witnesses on them with n, view 
to eliciting whether, and to what extent, present conditions of agriculture, etc., are 
affected by them, x and although the Commission should certainly not investigate these 
subjects or make specific recommendations in respect of them, I consider it should 
not be precluded from referring to them as matters directly connected \\ith the main 
question under inquiry. 1 ' 

Now, in the light of this clear pronouncement of the Secretary of State, 
T take it that the, fears which the Honourable Mover has expressed will 
disappear, and that he will see that, although these are not the direct 
Mubject-matter of investigation, still the Commission will deal with them, 
if they feel that they are connected with some issues which they aro investi- 
gating and for the determination of which they consider that evidence is 
necessary or evidence has already been taken. And I repeat the words of 
the Secretary of State once more : 

" The Commission should not le precluded from referring to other mailers directly 
connected with the main question under inquiry." 

T am indeed grateful tu my friend the Honourable Mr. Sethna for having 
drawn my attention to what he considers would be a very satisfactory and 
reasonable constitution of the Royal Commission. Well I thank him for 
the suggestions which he has made and while I assure him that I shall 
certainly consider them very carefully, it must at the 'same time be re- 
cognised that by the very nomenclature the Commission is Royal, and as 
such the appointment of members to a Royal Commission is entirely the 
-prerogative of the Crown and the matter, as was already stated by His 



72 COUNCIL OF STATE. [15TH FEB. 1926, 

[Sir Muhammad Habibullah.] 

Excellency the Viceroy in his speech the other day, is now engaging the 
attention of the Secretary of State. We shall certainly endeavour that the 
constitution of this Commission is such that it contains members who will' 
bring the requisite knowledge and the requisite experience to bear on the 
solution of the issues, important as they are, with which they are en- 
trusted, and I do hope that, when the Commission is actually announced, 
it will meet with universal approval. Having therefore, Sir, accepted the 
Resolution in its entirety, and having just attempted to make a few re- 
marks on the observations made by my H nourablc friend, I do not think 
there is anything more left for the Honourable Member except to withdraw 
his Resolution. 

THE HONOURABLE Mil. V. RAMADAS PANTULU (Madras: Non- 
Muhammadan) : Sir, the House is indeed grateful to the Honourable, Mr. 
K. C. Hoy for raising this very important debate on a very formal motion. 
If the public has any suspicion of the way in which this Royal Commission 
has been brought into existence, the public is not to blame for it, but the 
Government of India arc entirely to blamfe for it. After the assurance 
His Excellency the Viceroy has given, J am not going to say that we 
are going to read any dark political motive into this Commission; 
but if the Government had shown the consideration which they 
ought to show to the Central Legislature by taking it into their confidence 
before recommending the terms of reference to His Majesty's Government, 
it would have given greater satisfaction. In fact we only heard of this 
Commission when Hi Excellency made this announcement, and I expect 
we shall hear the final stages of the aocr mplishment of the scheme only 
when the Government ask for a grant for the expenditure of this Com- 
mission. I think this is hardly the way in which the Central Legislature 
ought to he treated and the country ought to be treated in a matter of this 
importance. Therefore, whatever suspicions may be entertained in this . 
matter are entirely due to the very unsatisfactory way in which the 
Government ushered this Commission into existence. 

Then, Sir, there are one or two matters about which one is a little 
apprehensive. I would only mention them so that the Honourable the 
Leader of the House may use his influence with the Government with re- 
gard to widening the scope of the inquiry. This House is aware that the 
Joint Parliamentary Committee in their report have drawn attention to the 
fact that of all taxes land revenue al ne is levied without legislative sanc- 
tion, and that they have made a significant recommendation in the report, 
namely, that " they proposed that the process of revising the land revenue 
settlement ought to be brought into close regulation by Statute as soon as 
possible." In Madras we have been struggling to get some legislation 
passed in this direction for the last six years and we are nearing the com- 
pletion of tho life of the second term of the reformed Councils, nnd yet we 
were told, in answer to a question the other day, that the matter is still 
under the consideration of the Government of India. What the Govern- 
ment of India ought really to have done was first to tackle this question 
by placing the land revenue assessment and the land revenue policy of 
dfovernment on a "sound basis before they advocated this Commission. After 
all the Members of this House cannot deny that, whatever measures may 
be devised for the improvement of agriculture in this country, they cannot 
succeed unless you improve the condition of the agriculturist, and that it- 



ROYAL COMMISSION ON AGRICULTURE. 7ft 

can be improved only by a sound and humane l&nd revenue policy, moder- 
ation of assessment, and helping the ryot by making the periodical settle- 
ments in such a way as not to make them oppressive. In the province 
from which I come three very important districts are in the throes of the 
periodical settlement, and what the people of these districts want is that 
this question of land revenue settlement should be placed on a statutory 
basis before the settlements are undertaken, and that an investigation into 
the conditions of the people of the province should be undertaken with, a 
view to seeing whether they can pay the additional taxation. But -it is 
proposed to increase immediately the land revenue by 25 per cent. A con- 
cession was made in regard to Tanjore, after an agitation, that it would 
be reduced to 18J, but all that is done before the necessary inquiry is 
made and the assessment subjected to legislative control as recommended 
by the Joint Committee. It is this reversing of the process and not deal- 
ing with the recommendations of the. Joint Committee before appointing 
this Ixoyal Commission that has caused suspicion. It looks as though the 
Government want to derive a larger revenue. I do not say it is not u 
legitimate object. Being the largest industry in the country, if there is 
an increase in the agriculturists' income, tlio Government may be entitled 
to a. share of it. J3ut this inquiry to some people means a method of 
finding out reasons for enhancing the land revenue and therefore there 
is a suspicion about it. I cannot conceal that fact. The Government 
would have been trusted much more by the people if they had 
first carried out the recommendations of the Joint Committee. 
Another matter which I wish to allude to is this. There is also 
some little suspicion that this inquiry might result, after all, in benefiting 
outside agencies and not the Indian agriculturists. The agriculturists will 
be benefited to some extent I have no doubt, but on most former occasions 
these Commissions have resulted in greater benefits to other people than 
the persons for whom they are intended. If as a result of this inquiry it 
is found that certain kinds of chemical manures and implements are neces- 
sary for this country, it will enable the foreign capitalist to export larger 
quantities of them to this country. While to-day manures which are avail- 
able here are exported every day to other countries, we may.be asked to 
import manures from other countries if the expert opinion arrived at by this 
Commission says that this is the best thing for us to do. Why do I say 
this? I am not merely speculating. The Madras Government in it's 
Agricultural Department asked for the stoppage of the export of bone meal, 
oilcake and fish manure which are available in abundance in the Madras 
Presidency. We were told that if the export of these things was prevent- 
ed it would lower the price and therefore the supply would be curtailed. 
Well it may be that such economic theory may do in some cases, but T do 
not think it would do in this case. We all know bone is a bye-product ard 
oilseeds are not grown on any economic theory. The fishermen are not 
likely to change, their occupations, and therefore this economic theory of 
reducing the supply by preventing export has no application to these 
manures. Still it is pressed and the Agricultural Department's efforts to 
get these exports stopped have proved a failure. Unless you therefore 
tackle these questions in a really svmpathetic spirit and come to the rescue 
of tho people with genuine sympathy for their indigenous wants, very little 
good will result from this Commission. 

In my province the population per hundred acres of culturable land is 
125, and calculations show that nn agriculturist has not more than three- 
quarters of an acre to labour upon on the average. On that three-quarters 



74 COUNCIL OF STATE. [15TH FEB. 1926. 

[Mr. V. Bamadas Pantulu.] 

of an acre he has to raise all sorts of necessities for the sustenance of hirn- 
*>elf and his family. An agriculturist in my province, and I am speaking 
ironi personal knowledge, is not backward. He knows the art of agricul- 
ture; and many authorities I have consulted agree that the agriculturist in 
India is not by any means a backward or primitive labourer.as is sometimes 
sought to bo made out. He knows his work. Therefore the question of 
intensive production must be tackled from an intimate knowledge of the 
conditions obtaining in India. On these questions we shall be thankful to 
Government if they tackle them .from the purely indigenous point of view, 
iind not merely from the point of view of foreign experts. Economic 
theories of foreign exports are sometimes fallacious, and therefore 1 would 
request the Government of India in nominating the personnel of this Gom- 
inifision to have regard to the desire that Indians who are acquainted Math 
ihe conditions of Indian agriculture should be appointed in a preponderat- 
ing number. Of course we do want foreign experts to give us technical and 
scientific advice, but I "think after all they are not the only best advisers 
in a matter like agriculture, where local conditions must bo studied. There- 
fore, while we welcome the advice of foreign experts, the Government of 
India, we think, would do well to recommend a preponderating Indian 
element and only such Indians us are directly interested in agriculture and 
have got a first-hand knowledge of agricultural conditions in this country 
c light to be recommended to sit on this Commission. If all this is done, 
I am sure something will come of it. I am also glad to know from the 
Honourable the Leader of the House that though not directly but indirectly 
the question of the land revenue system and of tenures will 
be considered by this Commission, and I hope this inquiry will be under- 
taken very soon. The land revenue policy of Government, was settled 30 
years ago and a great deal of change has taken place in the country since 
then, and that policy requires very urgent consideration, and therefore the 
materials to be collected for this inquiry should be collected a.s soon as 
possible. With these observations and in the hope that the Government of 
India in recommending the personnel of tho Commission, if they have not 
already done so, will take into consideration my request that if- ought to 
be prepOTiderntingly Indian and that Indians jrith first-hand knowledge of 
agricultural conditions in this country should be appointed to sit on this 
Commission. 1 bog to support the Resolution. 

THE HONOURAIILE SETir GOVIND DAS (Central Provinces : General): 
Sir, I also rise to make a few remarks on the Resolution of my Honourable 
friend Mr. K. C. Boy, but before I come to my subject I wish to make a 
few personal observations. I am perhaps,. Sir, the youngest member of 
this House. The Assembly to which I had the honour to belong till the 
other day always treated me with the utmost indulgence and kindness, 
and T hope you, Sir, and the Honourable Members of "this House, will 
extend to mo the same kindness, although we may not. see eye to eye in 
nil the matters which are brought before this House. I think, Sir, I may 
bo considered to represent the younger generation of this country, and 
T am afraid, Sir, their views are somewhat more advanced than- the views 
of many of tho Honourable Members here, but I think, Sir, they will appre- 
ciate tho views of the younger generation. 

Now coming to the subject I may point out that I belong to the class of 
.landholders who have much to do with agriculture and its problems 1 . But 
'at tho very outset I may mention, Sir, that this is not a matter which con- 



UOYAL COMMISSION ON AGRICULTURE. 7 O 

43erns landholders only but the whole country. When we consider, as the 
Honourable the Leader of the House has just said, that 3 persons out of 
4 are directly connected with the agricultural industry of this country, and 
that another 15 per cent, of the population is indirectly dependent upon 
the agricultural property of this country. Besides this, Sir, the industrial 
progress of the country also depends upon the future progress of agriculture. 
While, therefore, I welcome the announcement of this Royal Commission, 
I hold, as the Honourable Mr. K. C. Hoy and the Honourable Mr. Sethna 
have just said before the House, that the terms of reference of this Com- 
mission are not adequate to cover the whole question. The Honourable 
the Leader of the House lias said that the questions of land revenue and 
land tenure are complicated questions. I admit, Sir, that they are, but it 
does not mean that we should leave them untouched. The remedy lies in 
solving them and not shirking the responsibility. The Honourable the 
Leader of the House has also read in this connection a part of the announce- 
ment of the Secretary of State, but I think, Sir, it is insufficient. The settle- 
ment policy of the Government of India and the economic condition of the 
people are so much connected with each other, that you cannot examine 
one while leaving out the other. Tf you exclude land tenure and land 
revenue you exclude the most vital parts of the question. 

I think, Sir, it would not be out of place if I were to make, a few remarks 
on the merits of the question itself, as a grave responsibility lies on the 
present Royal Commission regarding the advancement of agriculturists in 
this country. The first charge that is laid at the door of the Indian peasant 
is, that he is conservative. I admit this charge; but in fairness to him I 
must point out that he i* no fool. He has a long heritage of experience 
behind him, and if he is convinced that a certain thing is within his reach 
and is at the same time profitable to him, he will at once adopt it. Of 
course lie has no use for an academic and itinerant lecturer from England 
or from America who delivers a lecture here and a lecture there and passes 
on. The way to convince him is not to publish the results obtained on 
some distant farm, but to demonstrate locally. Sir M. Visvoswarnyya, 
lately Dewan of Mysore and an experienced administrator. sa\x : 

tk A few central experimental farms and a number of district .farms have been 
working for several years past ; but it cannot be said that they have influenced 
the general situation in any material degree. They are controlled by Government 
officials, between whom and the cultivator there is and can be no sympathetic under- 
standing. The policy of agricultural development is controlled, not by experts, but 
by members of the bureaucracy, who obviously cannot, in the midst of their 
multitudinous executive duties, keep abreast of the achievements of scientific agriculture 
In the west." 

L think, Sir, the remedy lies in a great nnd combined progressive move- 
ment and in remodelling the Government Departments of Agriculture. 

The second charge that is laid at the Indian peasant's door is that he 
is illiterate. May I ask, Sir, who is responsible for this? The Govern- 
ment have shown criminal negligence in the matter of education of all 
(lasses, and specially of the rural classes. The present system of primary 
education is only fit for a city child and that is the reason why the villager 
lias no love for it. There should be a rural school within the reach of 
etory village as in the case of Japan, the Phillipines and the United States. 
What are the conditions in India to-day? According to Sir M. 
Visypswatavya, three villages in India out of every four are without a school, 
and 30 millions of children of school-going age are growing up without any 



76 COUNCIL OF STATE. [15TH FEB. 1926. 

[Seth Govind Das.] 

instruction. The expenditure on education in India from all sources, in- 
cluding fees, in 1916-17 was 11-2 crores of rupees, giving a rate of Bs. 14'8 
per head of the school-going population or seven annas per head of the 
entire population. The corresponding expenditure in other countries was 
Us. 38 per head in the United Kingdom, Bs. 104 in Canada, Bs. 114 in the 
United States of America. The figures speak for themselves and also for 
the backwardness of the country. When Prince Albert Victor, grandson 
of the late Queen Victoria, visited this country, the witty citizens of Poona 
in a well decorated and spacious pandal greeted His Royal Highness in 
these words " Tell Grand-Ma we are a happy nation, but 19 crores of us 
are without education.". I am, Sir, a great believer in education,, and the 
whole of the rural problem in India can be solved by following the right 
type of rural educational policy as was followed in the Phillipines. In the 
Philippines rural schools have a garden attached to them and a farm in 
which the village child learns the use of the best seeds and the best 1 pro- 
cesses; and from them the parents adopt those processes 

THE HONOURABLE THE PKESIDENT : I must ask the Honourable Mem- 
ber to leave education and come back to agriculture. 

THE HONOURABLE SETII GOVIND DAS : I -am referring to agricultural 
education, Sir. I shall only say a few words more. These schools demon- 
strate the use of scientific machinery. I admit, Sir, that the Government 
of India will say that they have established agricultural farms, .... 

THE HONOURABLE THE PRESIDENT : Will the Honourable Member 
leave education and, as I suggested, come back to agriculture? 

THE HONOURABLE SETII GOVIND DAS: I have already come to it. 
Sir. I know, Sir, that the Government of India will immediately say that 
they have established such farms, but they are most unnatural, as the- 
quotations from Sir M. Visveswarayya read by me prove. 

Now, Sir, coming to the indebtedness of- the agricultural population, 
I may say that rural India is in great debt. I have personal experience of 
my province in this connection, and I can say without any hesitation that 
in certain villages there is not a single farmer who is free from debt. A 
writer in the Round Table of June, 1925, says in this respect: 

44 The interest was in no case less than 36 per cent, and sometimes it was as high 
as 100 per cent, per annum. Frequently the money-lender would not give receipts 
for payments made, so that when a cultivator fell into debt he never got out of it. 
His produce was mortgaged to the money-lender on the money-lender's terms, and 
anything the debtor wanted had to be purchased from the money-lender on his own 
terms. The man had usually to endure a hand-to-mouth existence, for he could 
neither accumulate nor save anything. " 

Although the conditions are not as bad as the writer depicts yet they are 
far from satisfactory. In my own case Sir, I may mention that we had 
to remit Es. 15 lakhs within these few years to our own tenants until con- 
ditions somewhat improved. 

Sir, this is the old old story of the two diseases of India which are 
sapping her inner strength, namely, illiteracy and poverty. Much can oe 
said to emphasise the necessity for an expansion of the irrigation and pas- 
ture lands, but in comparison with these two evils they sink into insigni- 
ficance. As regards irrigation, something has been done in Madras and ID 
the Punjab ; but in the rest of the country these things are still untouched 
and that is the reason why wet products like sugar-eane and other thinpe 
are not cultivated in many parts of the country where they can thrive ae 



ROYAL COMMISSION ON AUIUCULTL'HK. 77 

in our own provinces, the 'Central Provinces, where the tracts could !e 
made useful for such products. At the same time. Sir, the whole land is &o 
extensively cultivated that there is hardly any land left for pastures. In 
my own province the cattle are 'Suffering immensely for want of grazing 
lands. The breed of cattle has also to be improved. I hope the proposed 
Royal Commission will seriously think of all these matters. 

finally, Sir, 1 am obliged to say u few words on the personnel of the 
Commission. The personnel of the Commission should be such that it 
should enjoy the confidence of agricultural India. Well known agricultur- 
ists and natural leaders oif the people should be associated with the Com- 
mission, so that they may place their own experience at the disposal of the 
country. Given sufficient public money and honest patriotic efforts, Sir, 
this Royal Commission should achieve its goal, but this is only possible if 
the terms of reference are broadened und the personnel is such tliat it may 
command the confidence of the whole country. 

THE HONOURABLE EAO SAHIB DR U. RAMA 1IAO (Madras: Non- 
Muhammadan) : Sir, 1 rise to support the Resolution moved by my friend, 
the Honourable Mr. K. C. Roy. In doing so I may be permitted to make 
a few observations not only Ifor the consideration of this Council but also 
of the Government. For my part, I have my own misgivings with regard 
to the ultimate utility of this Commission to the poor and helpless peasants 
of India and the beneficent results, which, \ve are told, would accrue to the 
agricultural population of this country from the labours of this Commis- 
sion. This Commission, coming as it doe,s so closely upon the heels of the 
British Empire Exhibition, is, in my opinion, intended more to exploit the 
raw products of this country than to put the agricultural industry of this 
country on a firm and solid basis and save the rural population from chronic 
indebtedness and economic ruin. Of course, this charge has been more 
than once repudiated, but as long as the terms of reference to the Commis- 
sion are not wide enough to include a close and careful examination! of the 
existing system of land -owner ship and tenancy and the assessment of land 
revenue and irrigation charges, which have a vital bearing on the expan- 
sion of agricultural industry in this country, it is my sincere conviction 
that any number of Royal Commissions will not be able to ameliorate the 
hard lot of the agriculturist in India nor induce him to adopt scientific 
methods of cultivation for which he cannot find the wherewithal. 

The terms of reference so far announced are more or less purely of a 
scientific and technical character relating to the application of the results 
of the latest scientific and practical knowledge to the agricultural industry 
in this country, and a few experts on agriculture could easily indicate wh.'it 
reforms are necessary in this direction. In fact, we have a number of 
these experts already in the Imperial and Provincial Agricultural Depart- 
ments who are expected to be posted with the latest scientific knowledge 
and discoveries on the subject of agriculture and apply that knowledge to 
the agricultural industry in India. Unless these experts have failed so far 
or are unable to perform this primary function, there can be absolutely no 
justification for the creation of this Royal Commission. It will not be 
out of place to point out in this connection that the generality of the agri- 
cultural: population in this country are so far immersed in poverty and 
indebtedness that they can think of nothing but their daily bread. In my 
own Presidency of which T can speak with some authority, irrigation fact* 
lities are quite inadequate anci the prospects or otherwise of agriculture 
depend almost entirely on the vicissitudes of the weather. For purpose* 

c 2 



78 COUNCIL OF STATE. [15TU FEB. 1926. 

[Dr. U. Rama liao.] 

Of tax-collection, it would be enough if there is one good shower of rain 
during the monsoon time, often termed "Sircar rain", and the Collector 
cornea in, whether any crop is raised or not, whetfier the harvest is good 
or bad, to gather the tax. This is invariably done before the crop is har- 
vested and the poor ryot is handicapped in that he is unable to sell his 
produce at a favourable rate in the market and pay the kist. It is now 
that he comes under the clutches of the sowcar or the money-lender, who 
charges an exorbitant rate of interest for the money he lends on the pawn 
of the produce. S-o, what little profit the agriculturist is able to make :s 
consumed in paying interest. There arc no agricultural banks to help the 
poor ryots in their hour of need and the co-operative societies, which are so 
few and far between, are so much wedded to red-tapeism that it is very 
difficult to obtain loans in time. The Government no doubt advance loans 
for agricultural purposes, but the process of getting them is tedious and the 
conditions of re-payment are exacting so that the agriculturists are averse 
to a\ail themselves of the offer. If at any time, fortune should favour the 
ryot and as a result of successive good seasons and bumper harvests, he 
begins to lift his head out of the financial mire and invest something to- 
wards the improvement of his lands, the ever-alert settlement officer comes 
on the scene and says that it is just the time for him to revise the land 
assessment, and he docs it regardless of all considerations. Recently, ^n 
the Tanjore District, the assessment was raised by 25 per cent, and it was 
only .-ifter a fierce, struggle and after the institution of a no-tax campaign 
that a slight reduction was effected. Again, all the available waste lands 
and common grazing grounds for cattle have been given away on D'harkast 
in rec-ent years with the result that the maintenance of cattle, so necessary 
for agricultural operations, has become n costly affair now-a-days. The 
last five years' agricultural statistics show 11 decrease of calves 2,760,428; 
bulls and' bullocks 856,674 ;. cow*, 470,873; male-buffaloes 171,566; femalc- 
imffnloes 323,218; why is tins heavy depletion in live-stock? The answer 
is that peasants find it impossible to maintain their live-stock and so the\ 
sell them for slaughter. Manure is very hard to get". The Forest laws 
are so stringent that even <:reen leaves cannot bo hnd now-a-days for love 
or money. Scientific manure is too costly for the poor ryot. Unless, there- 
fore, the Government improve the economic condition of the people by 
overhauling the laml tenure system, there is absolutely no good in Gov- 
ernment recommending to the agriculturists the adoption of scientific methods 
of cultivation. In the Provinces, the Development Department has no money 
to effect even minor improvements. Where is the money, then, to come 
from for carrying out large experiments, research work and a host of other 
things which may be recommended by the Royal Commission? The per- 
sonnel of the Commission is in the making and I am afraid, from the tenor 
of H E. the Viceroy's speech, there would be only a sprinkling of Indians 
m the Commission. The Commission must be preponderating^ Indian and 
thore must also be a fair representation of land-owners and tenants closely 
connected with the agricultural industry. The Commission must go into 
the interior and study the condition of rural life and not merely visit provin- 
cial centres to take down the eviflenoe of Government members and Gov- 
ernment nominees. Otherwise, even the little good that may come out of 
this Commission will be lost to the public and the Commission will in fche 
end prove a costly futility. With these words I strongly support the 
Resolution moved by the Honourable Mr. Boy. 



JIOVAL COMMISSION OX AGRICULTURE. 79 

THE HONOURABLE COLONEL NAWAII SIR UMAR HAYAT KHAN (Punjab : 
Nominated Non-official) : Sir, us the Resolution which has been moved has 
been accepted by the Honourable Member in charge, there is very little for 
ns to say. But, Sir, as one of the oldest Members of this House and a* 
one closely connected with the agricultural industry, I wish to say a few 
words. The Honourable Member on my left, who said that he is perhaps 
the youngest Member here, apparently thought ho had got new ideas when 
he spoke on the Resolution, but he has repeated some of the things which 
have been already said in this House before, because a'fter all when the 
condition of the people has not been improved or changed, one cannot pos 
sibly say any new things Tf we look to the past history of agriculture in 
this country, we will see that every reform that was urged for the improve- 
ment of agriculture and the amelioration of the conditions of the agricul- 
turists was turned down in this House and elsewhere. That sEows wh.it 
amount of interest our Government have been taking in agriculture. There-, 
fore, Sir, unless these papers are laid on the table of this House, as urped 
by the Resolution, one is apt to think that this Commission has been forced 
on the Government by somebody else. The agriculturists who have been 
treated in a stepmotherly fashion heretofore, when they hear af the appoint 
incut of this Commission, will at once suspect that there is something in 
this Commission which may ^o against the interests of agriculture. But 
when we see generally that agriculturists in this country have already gone- 
down to such low depths, that they cannot go lower, we can safely say 
that this Commission will not be able to do anything worse for them, an \ 
therefore, if it does anything at all, it- will be for their benefit. All we hope 
is that when this Commission comes out. the Government' of India will not 
whitle down its scope or restrict the terms of reference. 

Another thing that [ want to point out is that whenever H Royal Com- 
mission is appointed, the personnel is composed generally of those Members 
of the class which perhaps talks most but. knows least. Therefore, T trust 
that in selecting the personnel of this Commission, care will be taken 10 
see that some agriculturists are also put on it, and especially, as various 
provinces have various needs, it would be better to co-opt a few members 
from every province when the Commission visits each province to collect 
evidence. I can say, Sir, that nearly cent, per cenl . of A he 

p ' M * population of this country is connected with agriculture in wome 
form or another. It has been ur^ed that we need industrialists who know 
something about cotton and so on. If people like that come) in, I think 
the agriculturists will have 110 place, so I do hope this Commission will ro 
for agriculturists. Simply stick to this, take agriculturists only on it. As 
I do not want to repeat what has already been said and as the Resolution lias 
already been accepted, I support the Resolution. 

THE HONOURABLE PANDIT SHYAM BIHARI MISRA (United Province* : 
Nominated Official): Sir, .1 think I can congratulate the Honourable tin. 1 
Mover of this Resolution on the reception which the Resolution has met 
with not only from , the Official Benches, but also from the Swarajists. 1 
hope, Sir, in view erf this response, there will be no difficulties placed in 
the country in the way of the provision that may be made for the Royal 
Commission. I am not a politician and T do not wish to deal with the 
political aspects of the question. A reference has been made by two ;rf 
our Swarajist speakers to agricultural indebtedness and one Member has 
particularly said that the co-operative department was HO overpowered 
by red-tapeism that loans could not be received by agriculturists in time. 



80 COUNCIL OF STATE. [15TH FEB. 1926. 

[L'andit SLiyam Bihuri Misra.] 

J must confess, Sir, that 1 heard this remark with considerable surprise. 
1 am a -Registrar of Co-operative Societies in one of the provinces and 1 
know Sir, by personal experience, that this department has the least red- 
tapeism " about it. We have given almost full powers to societies them- 
selves and they carry on their own business. Our only duty is to let them 
know how to avoid mistakes. If they are going to make any mistakes, 
\ve simply point them out ; we do not interfere even then and -permit them 
to make unimportant mistakes if they are bent upon making them. There- 
fore to say that this department is full of red-tapeism is, I think, not 
correct. Anyhow whatever the co-operative department is, it is connected 
with agriculture and I hope this Agricultural Commission will put any 
mistakes there may be in the Department right. In any case the proposal 
is sound and I am glad that ii has met with such a good reception. 1 whole- 
heartedly support the Resolution. 

TIIK HONOURABLE MR. MANMOHANDAS 11AMJI VORA (Bombay: 
Noii-Mulmmmadiiu) : Sir, I welcome this Resolution and at the same time 

I waul to know whether the question of economic holdings will be taken 
up by this inquiry. It is a very important subject and it has n great bear- 
ing on (he agricultural poverty, and is a, question which requires thorough 
investigation. This process of reduction in the holdings that is going on, 

II nd the division after division, which has led to the present state of agri- 
cultural poverty and indebtedness and also the poor condition of the agri- 
cultural stock, wants going into. The holders of these small foldings fire 
not capable, of looking after them; they simply keep them for the sake 
of keeping their ancestral property, and they neglect them, and I think this 
question should he thoroughly gone into and some 1 solution for it found. 
With those remarks I support the Resolution. 

THE HONOURABLE M. K. C. ROY (Bengal: Nominated Non-Official): 
Sir, hi-t'oro I ask .you to close the debate, you will allow me to thank the 
Honourable Members who have supported me. It must be a source of 
great gratificution to the Leader of the House that politicians of various 
schools i>t' thought have warmly welcomed the idea of n Royal Commission. 
The Honourable Mr. Sethna has supported it on behalf of the industrialists, 
and my friend Mr. Ramadan Pantulu has supported it on behalf of the 
Swarajints and he has been followed by the Swarajist whip sitting on the 
other side of the House. Again my friend Mr. Shy am Bihari Misni, who is an 
official member from Hie United Provinces, has spoken and rebutted certain 
charges levelled against the co-operative movement. Sir, while I am grate- 
ful to the Leader of the House for accepting my motion and assuring us 
that he will place on the table copies of the correspondence which has 
passed between him and the Secretary of State, I feel it is my duty to 
rebut certain of his contentions. In the first place, he has told the House 
that, he is not. prepared to accept my reading of the two letters from the 
Provincial Governments. I have also read official letters and official docu- 
ments for a good many years, and I. am fairly convinced that the Provincial 
Governments of BomEay and Bihar have given him lukewarm support and 
a gentle -protest. I leave him to read liis own meaning into those letters 
and T shall retain my own. Then, Sir, as regards the personnel, I enlirety 
agree with him. It ia a matter of "Royal prerogative, and I am sorry that 
he should have gone to provinces for advice and assistance. As regards 
the Canadian precedent T have nothing to say to his very wise remarks, 



HOYAL COMMISSION ON AGRICULTUKE. gl 

tout 1 am may he did not listen to me properly. All i meant to say \vas 
that the Commission should not be tied down and no undertaking should be 
demanded from the Commission not to interfere in any way with the 
ministerial responsibility in the provinces. The Commission ought to be 
.given a free scope to consider the agricultural question and the constitu 
tioual aspect of it from the purely all-India agricultural point of view, and 
I do not think there would be any objection if there is u clear case for 
.revising the position of agriculture as a 'provincial transferred subject. 
Then, Sir, the third point that he has made is that he had taken the sense 
of the Legislature. 1 am quite sure that he has done that and lie has 
met with a warm reception to-day. But 1 am quite sure at the same time 
that if lie had wished he could have, taken the verdict of the Legislature, 
He lias not yet appointed the Royal Commission and 1 do not think the 
Royal Commission is coining into being till the next cold weather to do 
its work. He should have tabled a Resolution, in the same manner as 
Mr. Crerar did in regard to the Privy Council and taken the decision of 
both Houses. It would have then met with a warm response. The last 
point that remains is that he has given us a hint that there is nothing to 
debar this Commission from going into the three questions on which I placed 




Only the other day a committee appointed by the Finance Department 
wanted another committee on economic survey, or something of that kind. 
I do riot think, Sir, this diversity of Commissions will assist us. I think 
this Royal Commission should be allowed to go into the question of agri- 
cultural indebtedness, land revenue and assessment. 1 think my friend 
is not doing it because he is afraid of vested interests and is not so very 
anxious for the well-being of tho rural population and of rural development. 
With these words I thank him again for accepting my Resolution. 
THE HONOURABLE THE PRESIDENT : The question is : 

" That the following Resolution be adopted : 

' This Council recommends to the Governor General in Council to lay on the 
table of this House the correspondence that lias passed between the Govern- 
ment of India, the Secretary of State and the Provincial Governments 
on the question of the appointment of a Boyal Commission on Agriculture'." 

The motion was adopted. 



RESOLUTION RE REDUCTION OF THE TRAVELLING AND DAILY 
ALLOWANCES OF MEMBERS OF THE COUNCIL OF STATE. 
THE HONOURABLE RAO SAHIB DR. U. RAMA RAO (Madras: Non- 

Muhrtmmadan) : Sir, I beg to move t.he following Resolution which stands 

in my name : 

" That this Council recommends to tho Governor General in Council to amend the 
rules relating to the travelling and daily allowances admissible to Members of this 
Council in such manner as : 

(ft) to reduce the period preceding the commencement and following the termina- 
tion of a Session for which daily allowance may be drawn from seven to 
three days ; 

and 

(6) to deprive non-official Members of the Council of State of their existing 
option of reserving a first class railway compartment for their personal 
use and drawing fhe actual cost of reserving the compartment in lieu of 
travellinor allowance of 1 3/5ths of a first rlass fare.." 



fcjj COUNCIL OF 8TAT1L [15T7I FEB. 

[Dr. U. liuma Kao.J 

yir, it is most unfortunate und no one regrets it more than 1 do, thai 
1 should bring forward a Resolution of this Kind, which would ultimately 
have the effect of encroaching upon tiie -comforts and conveniences 01 tne 
Honourable JSi on-official Members of this Council, a bit. It is the will ot 
Providence, 1 think, that this newly-formed Council should commence its 
deliberations, by passing this self-denying ordinance. Let us, therefore, 
willingly and ungrudgingly make this small sacrifice and show to our 
electorates and to the outside world that we are not unworthy of the trust 
reposed in us, that we too are ready for any sacrifice for the sake of the 
motherland and that we have always a soft corner in our hearts for our less 
fortunate brethren. The Eesolution I have just moved is quite simple,, 
self-contained and self-explanatory. It needs no elaborate speech or com- 
ment. The genesis of the Resolution is briefly this. When, under the 
Government of India Act of 1919, that blessed Diarchic Constitution that 
stone for bread, that we got from the British Cabinet and the British Parlia- 
ment was thrust down the throats of the unwilling Indian populace, it had 
brought in its train many evils, the chief among them being an unbearable 
top-heavy est.ablishment. and a huge financial burden. What with the post- 
war economic conditions and what with the heavy financial responsibilities 
consequent on the Reforms, the coffers of the Government became empty, 
and the Government of India and the various Provincial Governments were 
fared with large deficits in their Budgets year after year. Additional 
taxation wns resorted to to meet these, deficits and the helpless masses 
were deprived of even the clue share of their daily necessities such as salt, 
besides being compelled to forego their conveniences, as a result of increase 
in the postal rates and railway fares. The cry of " Retrenchment " was, 
at this stage, raised throughout the length and breadth of the land and 
even the Government of India were forced to give heed to public opinion-. 
The aid of the " Im-hcape axe " was at once sought for, which did its work, 
so far, admirably well. It pruned all the noxious growths in the subordi 
natc ranks of the services, leaving the top severely alone. Even the 
military was subjected to a cut,- though the cut was not deep enough and 
to the satisfaction of the public. The Heaven-born Services are, of course, 
untouchable and so had to remain outside the pale of the Indicate Com- 
mission. To elevate them arid to improve their status, was the work of" 
another commission, the Lee Commission, and that is beside our point now. 
The Inc'hcape Committee also found it rather delicate to approach the 
Honourable the Ministers und the Members of the various legislative bodies 
with their weapon so soon. The Ministers in the various Provinces, however, 
voluntarily surrendered and offered their own quota of sacrifices, those in 
Madras consenting to forego Rs. 1,000 per mensem each, out of their 
salaries. With regard to the Councils, the Committee, while pointing out 
that the expenditure under tho head "Legislative Bodies" had increased 
from Rs. 1,71,000 actuals in 1913-14 to Rs. 7 lakhs according to Revised 
estimates and to Rs. 8,50,000 according to the budget estimates of 1922-23, 
made the following observation at page 127 of their Report: 

" The Uir^e. increase which hns taken plane in expenditure since 1913-14, is due to 
the appointment of full timed presidents, since the expansion of the New councils, 
the longer sittings hold under the reformed constitution and the grant of more liberal" 
allowances to Members present in Delhi and Simla. The bulk of the increase is 
inevitable but we feel th^t the matter of reduction or otherwise fn travelling and otrwi- 
allowawes is on*- that .should bo left to the Legislature. "" 



nBDUOTION OF ALLOWANCES OF MEMBERS OF COUNCIL OF STATE. 83 *' 

The reasons for this decision are not top to seek. The Inchcape Committee 
knew that the Legislative Assembly and the Council of State would 
realize the gravity of the situation and would themselves take the .initiative 
in this respect and so left the whole question to the good sense of the two- 
Houses. So far as the Legislative Assembly was concerned, their anti 
dpations were fulfilled. .The Assembly decided, at the time of voting of 
Demands in connection with the Budget for 1923-24, to reduce. the daily 
allowances admissible under the old rules to the Honourable Members 
of that House. Under the old rules, for 7 days before the commencement 
of a Session and for seven days after the" conclusion of a Cession, Members- 
of the Assembly as well as Honourable Members of this House could have 
their daily allowances. The Assembly thought that this was extravagant; 
and reduced the grant of daily allowances to 3 days, before the commence- 
ment of a Session and 3 days after. This was no doubt, a voluntary sacri- 
fice oh the part of the Assembly in the interests of economy. Subsequent- 
ly, when the allowances for the Members of the Council of State came 
under discussion, there was a motion made by one of the Honourable 
Members to reduce the daily allowances of this House and also to reduce 
the travelling allowances. It may here be pointed out that in the matter 
of travelling allowances, the Honourable Members of this House have the 
privilege of reserving a first class railway compartment for their personal 
use and drawing the actual cost of reservation in lieu of l$ths first class 
i'are admissible under the rules. The then Law Member, the Honourable 
Dr. Mian Sir Muhammad Shafi, intervened and appealed to the Members 
of the Legislative Assembly not to press these motions there but to leave 
them to tho Council of State to decide. The Resolutions were withdrawn 
in the Assembly, on the Honourable the Law Member giving an under- 
taking to place a motion before this House for the revision of the rules re- 
garding daily and travelling allowances admissible to the Honourable Mem- 
bers of this House and to take away the privilege of reserving a first class 
compartment from the Official Members. Accordingly, on the 17th July, 
1923, the Honourable the Law Member moved a Resolution before the 
old Council in the following terms: 

" This Council recommends to the Governor General in Council that, with pffect 
from the beginning of the next Session, the travelling and other allowances of the 
Members of the Council of State be placed on tho same footing as those of Members of 
the Legislative Assembly." 

But the old Council stood unmoved and adamant. While most of the Hon- 
ourable Members were willing to forego at least the 4 days' daily allowances, 
at the commencement and conclusion of a Session, they were not prepared 
to give up the privilege they enjoy in regard to railway travelling. They 
said in effect : 

Kings may come and kings may go, 

Hut we must go in saloons all the same. 

The discordant note was first struck by a European Member, the Honour 
able Sir Edgar Holberton, hailing from Burma as the representative of 
the Burma Chamber of Commerce. He said: 

" Most of us are people of a certain age in life, busy men, people whom it does 
not do any good to be hustled and bustled and crushed in' railway carriages." 

If this is the lot of first class railway passengers, T wonder what must be: 
the fate of third class passengers, who are huddled together in each com- 
partment in numbers far in excess of the seating accommodation pro- 
vided therein? The Burma trade magnate's description of the woes off 



ov ttYATK. [15TH Jtas. 1926. 

[Dr. U. llama Rao.J ; , 

A first class passenger was, to say the least oi it, bordering 011: 'exaggent- 
tiou. Among the other dissentients, who were all sons ol the soil, one 
Honourable Member said that the privileges and dignities of the House 
should be maintained at any cost. A third Honourable Member began to 
attribute motives to the Legislative Assembly but had to withdraw his 
remark subsequently. A fourth Honourable Member suggested a compro- 
mise by which the Resolution was to have effect until the financial condi- 
tions of the Government of India improved. The only solitary voice that 
was heard in support of that Resolution was that of Sir Maneckji Dadabhoy 
from the Central Provinces. The motion was finally put to the vote and 
negatived. Thus ended the history of the first onslaught against the allow- 
-ances of the Honourable Members of this Council. 1 cannot say if my 
Resolution will share the same fate. I have ventured to put it before you 
with the full hope that you will reconsider the old decision. If this Reso- 
lution is carried, a saving approximately of Rs. 15,000 per annum might 
be anticipated. The financial condition of the Government of India is no 
-better now. There is the huge millstone of the provincial contribution still 
hanging heavily round the necks of Madras, the Punjab and the United 
Provinces. The transferred half in the several provinces is as starved as 
ever and 110 improvements can be effected ,in the life-giving, life-ennobling 
and life-sustaining branches of administration such as the departments of 
Medicine, Education and Industries arc. You know this Resolution has 
beeii blessed already by the Government of India and sprinkled by the 
Legislative Assembly. It now remains for this Council wholeheartedly to 
adopt it. With these words, I commend it for your kind acceptance. 

THE HONOURABLE MR. P. C. DESIKA CHARI (Burma : General) : On 

a point of order, Sir, before the Honourable Mr. Ramadas Pantulu moves 

his amendment, I would like to say that proper notice of it has not been 

giveu and I take objection under Standing Order 64, since notice of the 

-: amendment was only given on the 13th. 

THK HONOURABLE THE PRESIDENT: In view of the fact that at the 
moment Mr. Secretary is not able to supply me with the Honourable Mem- 
ber's notice, perhaps we might defer the Honourable Member's amend- 
ment and proceed with the debate on the Resolution. I am not able to give 
-a definite ruling on tho point now immediately, because 1 have not got the 
Honourable Member's notice. When it arrives I shall be in a position to do 
so. 

THE HONOURABLE COLONEL NAWAB SIR UMAB HAYAT KHAN (Punjab : 
Nominated Non-official): Sir, may I speak on the same point? 

THE HONOURABLE THE PRESIDENT : On the Resolution. 

THE HONOURABLE COLONEL NAWAB SIR UMAR HAYAT KHAN : Sir, the 
best way, I think, of taking away all these things' in the shape of allowances 
and honours, etc., that our friend has mentioned in his Resolution,, is for 
him to leave this House and go into the other House. But to come here, as 
one would call it "as a spy" and then bring forward a Resolution like 
this 

THE HONOURABLE RAO SAHIB DR. TJ. RAMA RAO: I object to the word 
""spy", Sir; it is not parliamentary language. 



RJ3DI Cl'JOX OF ALLOWANCES OF MEMBERS Of COUNCIL OF STATE. 85 

THE HONOUKABLE COLONEL NAWAB Sm UMAR HAYAT KHAN: I do 
not think there is anything in it. 

TUE^ONOUUABLK RAO SAHIB DR. U. KAMA BAG: JSpy is not a parlia- 
mentary word to use. 

THE HONOURABLE THE PRESIDENT : The Honourable Member has 
obviously not meant anything derogatory either to this House or any 
Honourable Member here. 

THE HONOURABLE COLONEL NAWAB SIR UMAR HAYAT KHAN : You are 
in this House, and yet you are against this House; that is all I intended to 
say. There are men in this House who, I think, by coining here sacrificed 
many thousands of rupees, if it could be counted in terms of money. I for 
one would have rather liked that there should be no emoluments or anything 
of that sort at all, and that Members in this House should come here 
entirely at their own expense to assist and do public service. If that was 
the case, I sfiall be the first to forego everything like that. But if anything 
is to be given, then one ought to consider what that should be. Of course 
this House is a bit different from the other House. If it was not, there 
would be no use whatsoever in having two Houses. The reason why this 
House was constituted was this : that some hot-headed people might want 
to change, everything in the shape of administration at once and might 
want to bring in revolution or even sometimes want'to help Criminals, etc., 
etc. They do not see things from a different point of view; that is they 
-do not see that this is their country, and, therefore, those who have a stake 
in the land should see that nothing happens which would be detrimental to 
it. That is why we should have elderly men and men of a particular 
position in this House. In fact this House was meant to attract such 
people. Of course the franchise being put very low, lots of people can 
come in and when they do so they come with different ideas as naturally 
they can live on less money, perhaps they want to cut others down to 
the same level. I think those Members especially, who were present when 
this proposition was vetoed before should naturally stick to their guns and 
ee that this Resolution is defeated. The principle should be that either you 
should not take anything at all, or should take something according to the 
dignity of the House. With these words, Sir, I would ask the House not 
to sympathise with such a Resolution but to reject it. 

THE HONOURABLE TIIK PRESIDENT: With reference to the point of 
order which has been raised by the Honourable Mr. Desika Chari, the 
notice given by the Honourable Mr. Pantulu has been handed to me,' and 
I find it is a somewhat curious coincidence that whereas it was 1-20 by the 
clock when he rose to move his amendment, the notice of his amendment 
was handed in at 1-20 on Saturday last, which makes it exactly forty-eight 
hours' notice which ho gave before he attempted to move it. The Standing 
Order requires two days' clear notice. I am not aware that in this House 
nny interpretation has yet been given of the expression "two clear d^ys", 
whether it means two clear days from midnight to midnight must have 
elapsed before an amendment is moved, or whether it means a clear forty- 
etRfht hours. In this case, the Honourable Member's amendment merely 
a<ids one sma.ll item to the main Resolution moved, and I should in any 
case feel inclined to exercise my discretion in his favour and allow him to 



gg . corxciL OF STATE. |~15Tii FEB. 1926. 

[The President.] 

move the amendment inasmuch as I cannot feel that the House will ba 
taken by surprise in the matter, 

The Council then adjourned for Lunch till Half Past Two of the Clock, 



The Council re-assembled after Lunch at Half Past Two of the Clock., 
the Honourable the President in the Chair. 



THE HONOURABLE Mu. V. 11AMADAS PANTULU (Madras: Non- 
Muhammedan) : Sir, 1 beg to move the following amendment to the Reso- 
lution moved by my Honourable friend Dr. Rama Rao : 

^ " That this Council recommends to the Governor General in Council that the 
Members of this Council be placed on the same footing as the Members of the 
Legislative Assembly in the matter of honours, emoluments and allowances. 

On second thoughts 1 considered that my friend who moved the original 
Resolution was, perhaps, well advised in framing it in the way he did. 
because he did not invite his formidable official colleagues into the combat. 
My amendment, as the House will notice, embraced the officials also 
because I mentioned the word "honours". At present in addition to the 
advantages which we non-official Members enjoy in the matter of allow- 
ances and emoluments, all of us enjoy the privilege of prefixing the word 
"Honourable" to our names and therefore my amendment applies to 
official as well as to non-official Members of this House. Sir, in moving 
this amendment, 1 wish to assure this House that I liavc not the slightest 
intention of compromising the dignity or wounding the susceptibilities of 
nny section of this House. 

THE HONOUH.UILK COLONKL NAWAij Sir, UMAH HAYAT KHAN: Ques- 
tion? 

THE HONOURABLE MK. V. HAMADAS PANTULU : If I had not believed 
in the dignity and the use of this House, T would not have myself sought 
election to it. Therefore, I may assure my Honourable friend Sir Umar 
Hayat Khan that I am at one with him in doing nothing to lower the 
prestige or the honour of this House. T also beg to assure this House that, 
so far as the present Resolution is concerned, T am perfectly willing to 
concede that the gentle dignity of the representatives of the aristocracy, 
the benevolent autocracy of the representatives of the bureaucracy and the 
sound idealism of the representatives of the democracy are all harmoniously 
blended in this Chamber. At the same time, I wish to point out that 
this House is so constituted by the framers of the reformed constitution 
as to bo a preponderatingly elected Chamber, following the models of the 
later constitutions both in the Dominions and on the Continent. And some 
of you who were here when His Excellency the Viceroy dissolved the first 
Council of State might remember that he drew pointed attention to the 
fact that this House consisted of a majority of elected representatives, and 
that statement was coupled with the promise that, as time went on and 
His Excellency found increasing confidence in the House perhaps by way 
of responsive co-operation, His Excellency would try to diminish the official 
strength and increase the non-official strength of the Council. Therefore, 
I would point out to the Members of fhis House that- we are an essentially 



REDUCTION OF ALLOWANCES OF MEMBERS OF COUNCIL OF STATE. 87 

-elected body and that the elected representatives ure drawn from a class 
of persons who might indiscriminately seek election either to this House 
or to the Legislative Assembly. Some of my most distinguished colleagues 
in this House were themselves Members of the Legislative Assembly. My 
friends from Bombay the Honourable Mr. Phiroze C. Sethna and 
Mr. Manmohandas liamji were Members of the Legislative Assembly . 

THE HONOURABLE MR. PHIROZE C. SETHNA: I was not. 

THE HONOURABLE MR. V. HAMAD AS . PANTULU: I believe Mr. 
Manmohandas Kainji was there. At any rate, some of them were there. 
Therefore, when I have asked for the Members of this Council being placed 

on the same footing as the Members of the Legislative Assembly, I have 
done nothing which violates or offends our notions of dignity. Dignity 
attaches to the individual Members of this House and not to this Chamber 
as a whole. Therefore, if we can be elected representatives either of this 
House or of the other House, I really do not see how we suffer in dignity 

>or prestige by being placed on the same footing as the Members of the 

other House. 

I just looked into the practice that obtains in the Dominions Parlia- 
ments mid in some of the continental countries within the short time I 
had at my disposal, and 1 find that in the matter of emoluments, honours 
and allowances the Members of the lower and upper Houses in many count- 
ries are placed exact])/ on the same footing. In Australia the Members of the 
Senate and the Members of the House of Representatives both get a fixed 
.allowance of 400, and also get a free railway pass. Similarly, in South 
Africa the Members of the Senate and the Members of the Assembly are 
-entitled to the same allowance, they gc-t 400, ami arc entitled to a free 
railway pass. In France, as you perhaps know, the Members of the Senate 
and the Chamber of Deputies get 9,000 francs and there is no distinction in 
other matters. In Denmark the Members of the Landsthing, that -is the 
Upper House, and the Members of the Volkcthing, that is the Lower 
House, get the same emoluments. Therefore, in those countries which are 
self-governing, the Members of the Upper House evidently do not feel 
that their dignity suffers in any way by their being placed on the same 
footing as Members of the Lower House. It is true that in Canada there 
is a distinction, but in the Canadian constitution, the Upper House has come 
in for a lot of adverse comment .... 

THK HONOURABLE MR. PHIROZE C. SETHNA: From? 

THE HONOURABLE MR. V. EAMADAS PANTTJLU : From many critics. 
I can ^ quote from Gold win Smith. He says in "-Canada and Canadian 
affairs" that the Upper House, surrounded by derisive state, enjoys an 
ironical respect. He says that the ceremonious environment, the social 
precedence and the attributes of the Senators are trappings of impotence. 
No doubt he uses very strong language, but, there are other critics as well 
of 'the Canadian Upper House. Therefore, I do not think that the privi- 
leges which the Senators enjoy have enhanced their dignity, but found 
many detractors. It all depends on the way we conduct the affairs of the 
State and not on the name we give ourselves. I do not wish to enter 
into the financial question, because my Honourable friend Dr. Rama Rao 
lias dealt with it. But though the amount spent on the Members of the 
"Council of State as additional allowance may be small comparatively, the 



88 



COUNCIL OF STATE. [15TH FEB. 19*26- 



[Mr. V. llamadas Pantulu.] 

question is whether we are not prepared to place ourselves on a footing 
which is equal to that of the popular representatives of the Assembly, 
especially as we are drawn from "classes not different from those from which 
the Members of the other House are drawn. 

The electoral qualifications may be of a different type but any one 
of us may be there or any one of them may be here. Al member 
of any Legislature is entitled to be a Member of any other Legis- 
lature, e.g., a Member of a local Legislative Council can be a Member 
of the Assembly or of the Council of State. I think from the 
tax-payer's point of view it is also necessary to ensure that the elected 
representatives of the Upper Chamber do not draw any more than what 
is absolutely necessary. In fact, it is necessary that the whole question 
of the emoluments should be gone into, and if any Member of this House- 
had proposed a Resolution for the appointment of a Committee to go into 
the whole question, I would have gladly welcomed such a proposal. I may 
inform the Honourable Members here that in some Parliaments like the 
South African Parliament every Member of the Senate who absents himself 
for a day loses 3. If attendance in this Chamber is sought to be enforced 
and if it is laid down that we will have to forfeit a portion of our emoluments, 
for every day's absence, it would not be a bad idea. The idea would be 
to get Members to attend to their duty. The whole question is, one of 
merely providing the necessary means for the Members to attend to their 
duties in this Chamber. I will therefore very strongly urge on this House 
the desirability of accepting the Resolution in the form in which it has been 
amended by me. 

One word more and I have done. I gave notice of a similar Resolution 
in the first Council of State but it was not reached because I could not ballot 
for it before the business of the House was over. Therefore it is not a new 
idea that has struck me. As I saw my friend Dr. Rama Rao bringing a 
Resolution in a form which substantially ngreed with mine, I have merely 
brought in an amendment. I appeal to you not to attach any very great 
weight to the word "Honourable". Of course we arc all honourable men 
and I know will be honourable men without this prefix, and our honour 
depends jiot upon calling ourselves "Honourable" but on the way in which 
we safeguard the country's honour. With these words, Sir, I commend 
my amendment for the acceptance of the House. 

THE HONOURABLE MR. S. 11. DAS (Law Member): Sir, while the 
Government are prepared to welcome the original Resolution if the non- 
official Members think fit to pass it, I arn afraid Government must oppose 
this amendment, only because it also seeks to deal with the question 
of honours. The conferment of honours is a prerogative of the Crown 
which in this country is delegated to His Excellency the Viceroy and 
not to the Governor General in Council. Therefore, the Governor General 
in Council is not concerned with the question of the honour which tho 
Members of this House bear, and I would like to point out that a Resolu- 
tion which seeks to recommend this to the Governor General in Council 
is in a sense not really in order, because the Governor General in 
Council, as I pointed out, has no power with reference to the, question of 
the conferment of titles. That is one of the reasons why the Govern- 
ment are opposing this amendment. 



REDUCTION OF ALLOWANCES OF MEMBERS OF COUNCIL OF STATE. 8* 

Besides that I would ask this House to consider whether there should 
not, in fact, be a distinction between the two Chambers, because, after 
all, this is a revising Chamber and I think that, although there are one 
or two exceptions, the Honourable Mover of the amendment will find on 
further investigation that practically all the revising Chambers in the 
Dominions, with the exception of Australia and one or two other places, 
have this dignity conferred on their Members. I would also like to point 
out to this House that it is not a question of the dignity of a particular 
Member or Members of this House. The honour is conferred on the 
Members of this House really as a matter of dignity of the House and 
not of the particular Member. I would therefore ask this House . to 
consider whether the distinctive title which is given to Members of thia 
revising Chamber should not be continued. 

THE HONOURABLE MR. K. C. BOY (Bengal : Nominated Non-Official) : 
Sir, if you will permit me, 1 will move an adjournment ol the debate 
sine die. I will give my reasons. In the first place 1 do not consider 
that an open House is the proper place for a discussion of privileges. In 
all other countries it is discussed by a Committee of the House, and if 
my friend Dr. Eama Rao will, towards the latter part of the Session, 
move for a Committee, \ve shall be very glad to support him. I havt> 
already consulted ray iriend Dr. Eama Ilao on this point and he is not 
altogether opposed to an adjournment of the debate. I will give you my 
further reasons. My friend Mr. Ramadas has referred to Colonial practice, 
but I think he is slightly mistaken about Aus-ralia. In Australia Members 
get 1,000, in South Africa it is 400 and in Canada it is 4,000 dollars 
for both Houses. But, Sir, in India the conditions arc quite different. 
All these Members have no prospect of getting into the Cabinet of the 
Empire for a good many years to come, and they serve only as non-official 
advisers. Many of them are even out of pocket. I myself, although I 
have not been able to receive a single penny so far, have been out of 
pocket for doing what I consider my effective parliamentary duties. I 
think, Sir, the time has come when the whole question should bo con- 
sidered on a broader outlook than the parochial needs of this House. 
In my opinion, Sir, I feel that we should consider the present legislators 
as well as the prospective legislators and give them an economic interest 
in their parliamentary duties. I have often felt that the duties asked of 
Members are badly and indifferently done because of the Members having 
no interest 'in coming long distances and attending to their parliamentary 
duties. With these observations, Sir, I propose that the discussion bo 
adjourned sine die. 

THE HONOURABLE THE PEESIDENT: As Honourable Members are 
aware, it.. is entirely within the discretion of the Chair whether it will 
accept an amendment of the nature which has been moved by the Honour- 
able Mr. K. C. Koy and put it to the House. There are obviously 
occasions when a motion of that kind should not be put to the House. It 
seems, however, that the Honourable Mover of the amendment his 
given some cogent reasons why the debate should be adjourned. I say 
that without desiring to express any opinion on the merits of the case at 
all. I therefore accept his amendment and I put it to the House. The 
amendment moved is: 

" That this discussion be adjourned sine di>." 



90 COUNCIL OF STATE. [15TU FED. 1926. 

[The President.] 

Members will, for the present at all events, confine themselves to that 
amendment. 

THE HONOURABLE COLONEL NAWAB SIR UMAE HAYAT KHAN : I think, 
;^ir, the amendment is very sound. 

(No other Honourable Member rose to speak.) 

THE HONOURABLE THE PRESIDENT: If Honourable Members do not 
r wish to speak on that amendment, I will put it to the House. 

The original motion was: 

" That the Resolution standing in the name of the Honourable Dr. Kama Rao be 
adopted." 

Since which an amendment has been moved by the Honourable Mr. 
llamadas Pantulu to substitute other words for the text of the original 
Resolution, and a further amendment has been moved, that this discussion 
be adjourned sine die. 

The question is : 

11 That this discussion be adjourned *MC die." 

The motion was adopted. 



STATEMENT OP BUSINESS. 

THE HONOURABLE Sra MUHAMMAD HABIBULLAH (Member tor 
Education, Health and Lands): With your permission, Sir, I desire to 
supplement and in some respects to modify the statement which I made 
at the conclusion of our last meeting. After the presentation of the 
llailway Budget on Thursday next, time will be given for the discussion of 
the Honourable Mr. Sethna's Resolution standing in his name on to-day's 
list, of business. In view of this arrangement, the reason for which has 
already been explained to Honourable Members, the two small Pills 
which were to have been taken on that day have been included in to- 
morrow's list of business which is already in the hands of Honourable 
Members. On the other hand, the Trade Unions Bill, which was to have 
been takon to-morrow, will now be deferred to a later date which will 
be announced in due course. In deference to wishes expressed by certain 
Honourable Members the Contempt of Courts Bill will not be taken before 
Tuesday, the 2nd March, while the two Bills which, were laid on the 
table to-day, the Naturalisation Bill and the Insolvency (Amendment) 
Bill will probably be proceeded with on Tuesday, the 23rd February. 

The Honourable Mr. Chadwiek's Resolution regarding the action to 
be taken on Chapters 4 and 5 of the Report of the Indian Tariff Board will 
he moved either on thnt day or on Thursday, the 25th February. 



The Council then adjourned till Eleven of the Clock on Tueadav 
the 16th February, 1926. 



APPENDIX A. 
ROYAL COMMISSION ON AGRICULTURE. 

TELEGRAM TC> THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR INDIA, No. 88-C. t DATEI> 

NOVEMBER 1925. 



The Government of India have, as you ate aware, for some time past, 
been anxiously considering what steps should be taken to develop and 
improve agriculture in this country. The Central Government have long 
felt that there is room for greater development and co-ordination of- effort 
generally in India; and that it is incumbent upon the Central Government 
to set dn 60% Investigations in this direction with a view to assisting the 
PrbVihc&l Governments towards this end. The necessity for action has 
b6en fully explained fthd endorsed by observations made in speeches during 
the'lfcst few months by you tod by the Governor-General. In latter 's 
speech at the opening of the Simla session of the Indian Legislature in 
. August last, he referred to a scheme for the formation of a Central Board 
of Agriculture to assist in co-ordinating Provincial activities and in pro- 
moting and extending existing systems of research and education. Since 
then, after careful consideration of the scheme, we have come to the 
conclusion that it cannot be expected to yield the desired results. Gov- 
ernment of India 'feel that the Board is unlikely to command sufficient 
authority and weight to effect the required improvements or to be suffi- 
ciently detached in outlook to scrutinise the agricultural activities of the 
Central -and Provincial Governments from a fresh angle of view and to 
make recommendations or suggestions for reform of real permanent value. 
We strongly feel that the requirements of the situation could only be met 
by the appointment of a Royal Commission so constituted as to include 
member's from outside Indiaj possessing knowledge and experience of 
agriculture in other countries together with members from India 
With local knowledge of agriculture and rural economy and in 
sympathy with the Indian agricultural population. Before con- 
sulting Local Governments and making more precise recom- 
metidhtions after ascertaining their views regarding a Royal Com- 
mifesidh, we desire to let you know of our conclusions and to acquaint you 
with the scope of the work which. we contemplate should be undertaken 
by the Eoyal Commission, if appointed. Our suggestions are embodied 
ifa the form of a portion of a suggested draft of instructions or terms of 
reference which are contained in my telegram next following. The position 
of agriculture, as a transferred Provincial subject, the necessity of excluding 
from purview matters of jealous interest to Local Governments, such as 
HBvenue and irrigation charges, and the expediency of not -arousing any 
apprehension of disturbance of the relation between landlords and 
tenants, has made the drafting of the terms a matter of considerable diffi- 
culty *nd delrcacy. The terms as now drafted are the result of very 
careful examination and discussion by the Government of India. 

Before consulting Local Governments as to the scheme for recommend- 
ing the appointment of a Royal Commission, we desire to receive your 
approval to our communicating the general scheme and the general purport 
of the draft terms on which we are agreed to Local Governments for their 
Opinion, informing them that you and the Government of India are inclined 
-to f avoiar na Iloyal Commission and with terms of reference as suggested 

91 ' '* 



92 COUNCIL OF STATE. [15TH FEB. 1926. 

Before reaching final conclusions we desire to consult the Local Govern- 
ments upon these matters. It is recognised that there may be necessity 
later to make verbal alterations in the draft terms. 



TELEGRAM TO THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR INDIA, No. 84-C., DATED THE 

13TH NOVEMBER 1925. 

The following are the draft terms of reference referred to in our imme- 
diately preceding telegram: 

Generally 

To examine and report on the present conditions of agriculture and 
rural economy in British India and to make recom- 
mendations for the improvement of agriculture and the pro- 
motion of the welfare and prosperity of the rural population. 
In particular, to investigate 

(a) the measures now being taken for the promotion of agriculture 

and veterinary research, experiment, demonstration and edu- 
cation, for the introduction of new or better crops and for 
improvement in agricultural practice, dairy farming and the 
breeding of stock; 

(b) the existing methods of transport and marketing of agricultural 

produce <and stock ; 

(c) the method by which agricultural operations are financed and 

credit afforded to agriculturists; 

(d) the main factors affecting rural prosperity and the welfare of the 

lagricultural population and to make recommendations. 
It will not be within the scope of the Commission's duties to examine 
the existing system of land-ownership and tenancy or of the assessment of 
land revenue and irrigation charges, or the existing division of functions 
between the Government of India 'and the Local Governments. But the 
Commission shall be at liberty to suggest means whereby the activities 
of the Government of India may best be co-ordinated and to indicate 
directions in which the Government of India may usefully supplement 
the activities of Local Governments. 



TELEGRAM FROM THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR INDIA, No. 346-S., DATED 

THE 20TH NOVEMBER 1925. 

No. 3073. Boyal Commission on Agriculture. I warmly welcome your 
telegram of November 13th. You may certainly say, when addressing 
Provincial Governments, that I am in cordial agreement with your view 
that this enquiry should be initiated and that, subject to any criticisms 
which Local Governments themselves may offer, I am of opinion that the 
general purport of the terms of reference is suitable. But I Offer borne 
observations on these terms. " <: 

I should prefer to alter word "examine" in (d) to words "make recom- 
mendations regarding". I agree that Commission, if for no other reason 
than that it is not qualified, cannot be expected to deal with such quest-tons 
as relationship of landlords and tenants, land revenue sy&t&ns, 
Assessments or irrigation charges. Nevertheless, it is inevitable thtet'wit- 
nesses will refer* to them during enquiry, and I do not think that Cdm- 
mjpsion should be precluded from ( examining witnesses on them with a 



APPENDIX. 93 

view to eliciting whether and to what extent present conditions of agri- 
culture, etc., are affected by them, and although Commission should 
certainly not investigate these subjects or make specific recommendations 
in respect of them I consider it should not be precluded from referring to 
them as matters directly connected with the main question under enquiry. 

TELEGRAM FROM THE VICEROY TO THE SECRETARY OF STATE, No. 213-C., 

DATED 2ND DECEMBER 1925. 

Koyal Commission on Agriculture. The change has now been accepted 
by the Members of my Council and we are addressing Local Governments. 



CIRCULAR LETTER TO ALL LOCAL GOVERNMENTS AND ADMINISTRATIONS, DE- 
PARTMENT OF EDUCATION, HEALTH AND LANDS, No. 1637, DATED THE 
4TH DECEMBER 1925. (CONFIDENTIAL.) 

I am directed to invite a reference to the remarks of His Excellency 
the Viceroy, in his opening address to the Indian Legislature on August 
20th, 1025, on the subject of Indian Agriculture. His Excellency then 
said "My Government, while giving due attention to industries in the 
restricted sense of the term, are determined, so far as circumstances per- 
mit, not to neglect the interests of what is really the greatest of all Indian 
industries, namely, agriculture. I know from my discussions with the 
Secretary of State that my Government can rely upon his most cordial 
support of this policy. The direct responsibility* of the Government of 
India for agricultural development in the Provinces ceased with the incep- 
tion of the Reforms. In view, however, of the paramount importance of 
agriculture as the basic industry of the people of India, of the improbability 
of Provincial Governments being in a position to undertake research on the 
scale required and of the necessity for co-ordinating activities in the wide 
field of agricultural development, the Central Government must continue 
to play an important part in agricultural progress". Striking progress has 
undoubtedly been made in recent years in many directions in promoting 
the science of .agriculture and introducing improvements; and both the 
Central Institutions under the Government of India and the Departments 
of Agriculture in the Provinces under the charge of Ministers of the Local 
Governments have every reason to be proud of the results of their activi- 
ties find the sum total of their achievements. Nevertheless in view of the 
great importance of agriculture to India and of the large numbers of the 
population engaged in the industry and wholly dependent upon it, the Gov- 
ernment of India feel that there is room for more extensive co-ordination 
of effort towards agricultural improvement. No possible step should be 
left untried in making available to those concerned in the industry the 'latest 
scientific and practical knowledge. Nothing which holds out promise of 
amelioration in conditions, should remain unexplored. It cannot be gain- 
said that the average standard of production and the general level of rural 
welfare in India is lower than that prevailing in other countries where there 
has been for some time past marked concentration on agricultural problems. 
The agricultural practice in many parts of India also is admittedly still pri- 
mitive and the bullc of the agricultural population is generally unversed in 
.modern methods of .improvement. This situation calls for remedy of a 
comprehensive mature; qncj the Government of India (eel that the time 



94 oouN0Q* o>p STATE. [16TH FEB. 1926. 



opportune for. examination of m,eai# of ptrengttywwg a^vi^es, by 03- 
and of methods for applying the fruits of esperiepce j n other 

to tbe solution of the problems of agricultural conditions im India. 

refipQ.ndenoe with the Secretary of State and exploration of various 

o| fciflUiijg this purpose, the Government of India, are incline^ 
to think that the objects which they have in view can best be attained by 
the recommendation of the appointment, at the earliest possible date, of a 
fy^al Oqjpami^ipn on Agriculture in India. The Secretary of State is dis- 
posed to agree with the' Government of India, and the Government of 
India wish to consult local Governments as to the proposal and the draft 

re4e,rence. 



2. I am to explain that in arriving at this conclusion, the Government 
of India have no intention of interfering with the full control of local Gov- 
ernments over this subject which is in most of its aspects both provincial 
and transferred. Their object is not to curtail but to supplement the work 
^Jiic^i is now being carried on in the Provinces. The proposed terms of 
reference, of which I am to enclose a copy, will make clear to the local 

Government 
Administration "*e P rcclsc scope of the enquiry which it is proposed to entrust 

to the Royal Commission. It is the hope of the Government of India that 
the terms of reference as drafted will enable the Commission, as a result 
of its investigations, to make recommendations which will be of value to 
Ministers responsible for agriculture in the Provinces and to Local Admi- 
nistratipns as well as to the Central Agencies working under themselves 
in connection with agricultural and veterinary research and education. It 
will be observed that all questions connected with land tenure and th$ rates 
of land revenue assessment and irrigation charges are specifically excluded 
from the field of the Commission's recommendations. Systems of land- 
6wners,hip and tenancy are extremely technical and vary from Province to 
Province. The principles on which the system of land revenue assessment 
and irrigation charges rests, are generally well known and recognised in 
India. Although these questions have in a sense a definite connection with 
rural conditions, it appears to the Government of India undesirable and 
unnecessary to invite a Commission, primarily devoted to examination and 
report regarding agricultural improvement to burden their enquiry by ex- 
ploration into these subjects for the purpose of making recommendations 
concerning them. They will be glad to consider any comments which 
local Government ' . ^ . " 

the "Aflm'S&Xtioir" desire to offer on the main proposal and the, sug- 
gested terms of reference. It is specially requested that the replies should 
reaph them not later than the end of the year. 

3. I am to acjd that the^ Royal Commission will be instructed to place 
themselves in communication with local Governm2nts on their visit to any 
province a,mJ, to carry on their investigations and to take evidence in close 
consultation with the Ministers responsible for agriculture, cooperation, 
and the other subjects that come under tEeir consideration. 

Proposed terms of reference. 
Generally, 

TJp examine and report on tjhe present conditions of agriculture and 
rural .economy in. Britjteh India and to make recommendations 
fpr the. improvement of agriculture and ibhe promotion of the 
welfare and prosperity of the rural population; 



APPENDIX. 86 

111 particular to investigate . 

(a) the measures now being taken for the promotion of agricultural 

and veterinary research, experiment demonstration and edu- 
cation, for, the. iqtr^uctiofl.of n,e\y or better crpps and for im- 
proyepient, in agyiQultura) practice, 4s4*y farming and the 
breeding of stock; 

(b) the existing methods of transport and marketing of agricultural 

produce and stock; 

(o) the methpds by which agricultural operations are financed and 
credit afforded to agriculturists ; 

(rf) the main factors affecting rural prosperity and the welfare of 
thq agricultural population; 

and to make recommendations. 

1^, w^l npt, be within the scope of the Commission's duties to make re- 
commanclatkms regarding the existing systems, oW^ndownership and tenancy 
qy of the assessment of land revenue and irrigation charges, or the existing 
division of functions between the Government of India and the Local Gov- 
ernments. But the Commission shall be at liberty to suggest means 
whereby the activities of the Governments in India may best be co-ordi- 
nated and to indicate directions in which the Government of India may 
usefully supplement the activities of Local Governments. 

LETTER FKOM THE SECRETARY TO THE GOVERNMENT op THE UNITED PROVINCES, 
AGRICULTURE DEPARTMENT, No. 786, DATED THE 10 DECEMBER 1925. 

I am directed to reply to your confidential letter No. 1637, dated De- 
cember 4, 1925, regarding the proposal to appoint a Eoyal Commission on 
Agriculture. 

2. The Governor, acting with his Ministers* welcomes th$ appointment 
of such a Commission, the more so, as it is meant to supplement the work 
now carried on by provincial departments and is expressly precluded by the 
proposed terms df> reference from interfering with the existing division of 
functions between the Government of India and the local Governments. 

8. This Government consider the terms of reference to be suitable and 
agree that, the Commission should confine its inquiries to matters that bear 
directly on agricultural improvement. 

LETTER FROM THE -CHIEF COMMISSIONER OF COORO, No. C.-4212 75$, DA-EBD 

THE 15TH DECEMBER 1925, 

I .have the honour to refer to your confidential leliler No. 1687, dated 
the 4th December 1925, and to state that the proposed Royal Commission 
wil^ be cordially welcomed. 



LETTER FROM THE SECOND SECRETARY TO THE GOVERNMENT OF ASSAM, 
AoRi.-702 7678-G.J., DATED THE 16TH DECEMBER 1925. 

I am direptetji to acknowledge the receipt of your letter No. 1687, dated 
the,. 4th, December 192$, and to say, in reply, that His Excellency the Gov- 
ernor, and hie tyinisfeer consider the time ripe for an authoritative* exacnin% 
tion of the position of agriculture in India and agree thab ft oouUL tafJ> b* 



96 COUNCIL OF STATE. [15xH FEB. 1926. 

carried out by a Boyal Commission. They have no comments to offer, on 
the terms of reference which seem suitable. 



LETTER FROM THE SECRETARY TO THE GOVERNMENT OF BIHAR AND 
No. 2777-D. DATED THE 18TH DECEMBER 1925. 

With reference to your letter No. 1637, dated the 4th December 1925, 
I am directed to say that the Government of Bihar and Orissa welcome 
the proposed appointment oif a Royal Commission on Agriculture in India 
and they con side the terms of reference sufficiently wide. 

2. The local Government think, however, that the attention of the 
Boyal Commission should be called, at the outset, to the necessity of 
considering separately the problems of the various parts of India. Owing 
to local circumstances, these problems vary considerably in the different 
provinces, and it would seem desirable that the Commission should report 
separately on the circumstances of the main divisions of the country in the 
same way as was done by the Indian Sugar Committee. While it may 
be possible to recommend the general lines of policy applicable to India 
as a whole, the area is so vast and Ehe local conditions are so diverse that 
if such recommendations are ix> be of practical use, they must be supple- 
mented by specific advice as to the special measures required in the different 
parts of India, which have so far developed on very different lines. The 
local Government suggest, therefore, that the first paragraph of the pro- 
posed terms of reference might be amended by the addition of the words 
"the several provinces of" before "British India" in line 2. 



LETTER FROM THE FINANCIAL COMMISSIONER AND SECRETARY TO THE GOV- 
ERNMENT OF THE PUNJAB, DEVELOPMENT DEPARTMENT, L., No. 4604-D., 

DATED THE 21ST DECEMBER 1925. 

In reply to your confidential letter No. 1687, dated 4th December 1925, 
I and diirected to say that (His Excellency the Governor in Council welcomes 
the proposal to appoint a Royal Commission, which will deal with matters 
of unique importance to this province. 

2. With regard to the terms of reference, I am to suggest that the 
enquiry should embrace a reference to the suitability of existing educational 
methods and curricula as applied to the needs of the rural population, and 
to the possibility of providing a better ground work for those who desire 
study in agriculttiral courses. 

3. Your letter under reply recognises that agriculture is a Transferred 
Department io charge /of Ministers. His Excellency the Governor in 
Council* has no doubt that the Royal Commission, when pursuing its en- 
quiries, will take cognizance of the position and responsibilities of the 
Ministers and will associate them -fully in their proceedings. It should, in 
the opinion of His Excellency the Governor in Council, be open to Ministers 
to suggest, lines of detailed enquiry required in the particular interests f 
theii own 'provinces, and to seek the advice of the Royal Commission on 
any jpqint of importance to the Departments of which they are in charge. 

4. I am to ndd'thAt, in view of, the circumstances of the case, it .is 
hoped that 'the Government of India \yill consult His Excellency the Gov- 
ernor atid his Ministers regardiug th$i personnel of 'the Boyal 



97 

FROM THE GOVERNMENT OF TUB CENTRAL PRO VI NOBS, No. 279-1, 

DATED NAGPUR, THE 23RD DECEMBER 1025. 

Proposed Koyal Commission on Agriculture. Absence of Minister, who 
might have views to submit regarding all-India treatment of transferred 
subjects, places Central Provinces Government in peculiar position. Subject 
to this, this Government fully approve appointment of Royal Commission and 
will gladly co-operate in its work. Regarding proposed terms of reference 
it .has no suggestions to make. 

The foregoing is with reference to Agricultural Department letter dated 
December 4th. 



LETTER FROM THE GOVERNMENT OF BURMA, No. 345-O. 25, DATED THE 21sT 

DECEMBER 1925. 

In reply to your letter No. 1687 (Confidential), dotted the 4th December 
1925, 1 am directed to say that the Government of Burma (Ministry of 
Agriculture) cordially approves the coming of a Boyal Commission on Agri- 
culture to Burma, and considers that the proposed terms of reference ore 
suitable. 



LETTER FROM THE GOVERNMENT OF BENGAL, No. 6534, DATED THE 23RD 

DECEMBER 1925. 

I arn directed to invite a reference to your letter No. 1637, dated the 
4th December 1925, and to state that the Government of Bengal agree 
with the Government of. India in the view that the time has now come 
when an enquiry into the means of strengthening agricultural activities by 
co-ordination and of the methods for applying the fruits of experience in 
other countries to the solution of the problem of agricultural conditions 
is likely to be of great assistance to the further development of the agri- 
cultural industry in India. His Excellency the Governor in Council agrees 
that the only satisfactory method of conducting such an enquiry would be 
through the agency of a Royal Commission, 

The terms of reference suggested for the proposed Commission in your 
letter under reply appear to the Local Government to be generally suitable 
and would presumably cover an investigation into measures for the intro- 
duction of agriculturcil machinery and implements, methods of compilation 
of agricultural statistics and the facilities at present existing for co- 
operative purchase of agricultural requirements and co-operative sale of 
agricultural produce. In the opinion of this Government these are subjects 
which should also come within the purview of the Boyal Commission's 
investigations. 



LETTER FROM THE GOVERNMENT OP MADRAS, No. 1884, DATED THE 21sT 

DECEMBER 19S5. 

In reply to your letter No. f637-Agri., dated 4th December 1^925, I am 
directed to report that His Excellency the Governor acting with his Ministers 
welcomes with pleasure the proposal to appoint a.poyal Commission at the 
earliest possible date to examine and report onHfy present conditions of 



06 COUNCIL OF STATE. [15 FEB. 1926. 

Agriculture and rural ectittomy in British India. This Government bat 
no doubt that the appointment of such a Commission would afford valuable 
assistance in solving the many problems now awaiting solution in connectioi 
with the agriculture 6f the country and in focussing public attention oc 
the subject of agricultural improvement and the part it plays in rural 
prosperity. The proposed terms of reference do not call for any special 
remarks except that His Excellency acting with his Ministers considers it 
desirable to include specifically in their scope the application of co-operative 
principles to agriculture in all its aspects, such as production, credit, 
marketing, etc. The importance of this subject has been recognised in 
several Western countries and in Japan. 



LETTER FROM THE CHIEF COMMISSIONER, AJMEH-MERWARA, No. 782-P., 

DATED THE 2 3RD DECEMBER 1925. 

I have the honour to acknowledge the receipt of your letter No. 1687, 
dated the 4th December 1925, and to state that I have no comments to 
make as I consider the terms of reference sufficiently comprehensive. 



LETTER FROM THE CHIEF COMMISSIONER, NORTH-WEST FRONTIER PROVINCE, 
No. 1072-REV., DATED THE 23RD DECEMBER 1925. 

In reply to your confidential letter No. 1637, dated the 4th December 
1925,. I have the honour to state that the opinions of my District Officers 
and of those other officers whom time has allowed of my consulting, are 
unanimously in favour of the proposal to appoint a Royal Commission on 
Agriculture in India. With that consensus of opinion I am in entire 
agreement. 

The proposed terms of reference seem to me to be suitable and suffi- 
ciently comprehensive. There is, however, one suggestion which I venture 
to make with regard to point (d) of the proposed particular terms of reference 
and that is that the terms may include a specific direction to investigate 
the means by which it rtlay be hoped that the cultivator can be made 
a match for the professional money-lender. As Mr. Darling remarks in 
his "The Punjab Peasant in Prosperity and Debt," page 280: 

"The cultivator sows that another may reap, and toils that his 
creditor may gain. Of what use to him, then, are all the 
devices Kor improving the quantity or the quality of his 
harvest". 
* * * * * 

"and to the Indian cultivator no freedom is possible till the 
power of the money-lender is broken." 



LETTER FWMf Tfcfc SECRETARY TO THE GOVERNMENT OF BOMBAY, BBVENUE 
DEPARTMENT, No. 5426-A./24-CONPDL., DATED THE 80TH EBOEftiBER 
1825. 
Proposed appointment of a Royal Commission on Agriculture in India. 

I am directed by the Government of Bombay (Transferred Depart- 
ments) to acknowledge the receipt of yow letter No. 1687, dated 4th 



APPENDIX. 99* 

December 1925, inviting the views of this Government on the proposed 
appointment of a Itoyal Commission on Agriculture in India and the sug- 
gtested terms of reference thereto. 

2. In reply, 1 am to state that in the opinion of this Government the 
problems of agriculture are largely local in character and even the results* 
of general research frequently require prior local investigation before they 
can be -applied successfully to any particular area. The Government of 
India are aware, that much useful work has been done in this Presidency 
as in other Provinces in defining local problems and determining their 
solution. An extension of these activities has been limited only by the 
financial stringency from which this Presidency, in common with other 
Provinces, has suffered. The Government of Bombay recognise that the 
findings of a Royal Commission on Agriculture \vould throw miich light on 
numerous important problems connected with, that industry. In parti- 
cular, should the appointment of the Commission result, as is anticipated 
in paragraph 1 of your letter, in research work on a larger scale than hither- 
to beingj undertaken by the Government of India, it would be of very great 
value. The Government of Bombay however believe that much of the 
work of the Commission would require to be supplemented by local in- 
vestigation which they, and possibly other Provincial Governments may 
be unable to undertake in their present situation. I am therefore to state 
that while they would welcome in several respects the appointment of the 
proposed Commission, they feel bound to point out that the full measure 
of its benefits might be lost to the Provinces by their inability to apply or 
follow up the results of the inquiries. 

3. With regard to the proposed terms of reference, the Government of 
Bombay are in full agreement with the view that all questions connected 
with land tenure and rates of land revenue assessment nnd irrigation charges 
should be specifically excluded from the scope of the Commission's recom- 
mendations. They further welcome the assurance contained in paragraph 
2 of your letter that the Government of India have no intention of inter- 
fering with the full control of local Governments over agriculture. Subject 
to these two conditions they approve of the terms of reference generally. 
I am however to point out that clause (d) of the proposed terms as jft 
present worded would cover a very wide range extending beyond the restric- 
tions proposed above. The Government of Bombay would therefore prefer 
if it could be somewhat narrowed down so as to accord more strictly to the 
proposed scope of the Commission's recommendations. 



LETTER FROM THE AGENT TO THE GOVERNOR GENERAL IN BALUCHISTAN, No. 

13-S.R., DATED THE 4TH JANUARY 1926. 

Proposed appointment of a Royal Commission on Agriculture in India. 

With reference to your Confidential letter No. 1637, dated the 4th 
December 1925, on the subject indicated above, I have the honour to say 
that tho proposed terms of reference to the Royal Commission appear to 
ine to be suitable. 

.2. Agriculture in Bnluchistan. as the Government of India is aware, is 
handicapped for the most port, by a paucity of water due to an ever in- 
creasing deficiency in tho nnnual rninfnll as n result of which springs and 1 
other sources of supply nre either drying up or becoming much depleted.. 



10(J COUNCIL OF STATE. f 15TH FEB. 1926. 

To increase this supply is the greatest problem so far as the Agriculturist 
is concerned, which faces this Administration and any measures not pro- 
hibitively expensive, which the Commission could suggest in this direction 
would be of inestimable value to all concerned. 



TELEGRAM FIIOM THE VICEROY (EDUCATION DEPARTMENT), TO THE SECRETARY 
OF STATE FOK INDIA, LONDON, No. 71-S.. DATED ]2ra JANUARY 1926. 

Priority 

Boyal Commission on Agriculture. On December 4th, we sent Local 
Governments and Administrations a confidential circular inviting reference 
to His Excellency's remarks in his opening address to Indian Legislature on 
August 20th, 1925, on subject of Indian Agriculture. The circular also 
mentioned the striking progress made in recent years in many directions in 
promoting science of agriculture and introducing improvements; and it was 
added that, in view of great importance of agriculture to India and of large 
numbers of population engaged in the industry and wholly depended upon it, 
we felt that there was room for more extensive co-ordination of effort 
towards 'agricultural improvement; that no possible step should be left 
untried in making the latest scientific and practical knowledge available to. 
those concerned in the industry; that nothing should remain unexplored 
which held out promise of amelioration in conditions ; that average standard 
of production and general level of rural welfare in India was lower than in 
other countries, where there has been for some time past marked concentra- 
tion on lagricultural problems; that agricultural practice in many parts of 
India also was admittedly still primitive and bulk of agricultural population 
was generally unversed in modern methods of improvements; that this 
situation called for remedy of a comprehensive nature ; and that we felt that 
time was opportune for examination of means of strengthening activities by 
co-ordination, and of methods for applying fruits of experience in other 
countries to solution of problems of agricultural conditions in India. The 
circular went on to say that after correspondence with you, we were inclined 
to think that objects which we had in view could best be attained by recom- 
mendation of appointment of Royal Commission on Agriculture at earliest 
possible date ; that you were disposed to agree with us and that we wished 
to consult local Governments as to this proposal and as to draft terms 
of reference, copy of which as amended in accordance with your telegram 
of November 20th was forwarded to them. 

2. It was explained to local Governments that we had no intention, in 
arriving at this conclusion, of interfering with their full control over this 
subject, which is in most of its aspects both provincial and transferred; that 
our object was not to curtail but to supplement work now being carried on in 
Provinces ; that we hoped that terms of reference as drafted would enable 
Commission, as result of its investigations, to make recommendations which 
would be of vnlue to Ministers responsible for Agriculture in Provinces and 
to local Administrations 'as well as Central Agencies working under us in 
connection with agricultural and veterinary research and education. It was 
explained that all questions connected with land tenure 'and rates of land 
revenue assessment and irrigation charges were specifically excluded from 
field of Commission's recommendation; and that although these questions 
had in ia sense definite connection with rural conditions, it appeared to us 



APPENDIX. 10 L 

undesirable and unnecessary to invite Commission to burden their enquiry 
by exploration into tnese subjects for purpose of making recommendations 
concerning them. It was added that Commission would be instructed to 
place themselves in communication with local Governments on their visit 
to any province, <and to carry on their investigations and to take evidence 
in close consultation with Ministers responsible for agriculture, co-operation 
and other subjects that came under their consideration. 

3. All local Governments and Administrations except Delhi have replied. 
All are in favour of appointment of Commission. United Provinces, Burma, 
Central Provinces, Assam, Coorg, Ajmer-Merwara and Baluchistan consider 
proposed terms of reference suitable. 

It is considered by Bihar uncf Orissa that attention of Commission should 
at outset be called to necessity of considering separately problem of various 
parts of India. Owing to local circumstances, these problems vary consider- 
ably in different provinces, and local Government consider it desirable that 
Commission should report separately on circumstances of main divisions of 
country in same way as was done by Indian Sugar Committee. Local 
Government also suggest that in order that Commission's recommendations 
should be of practical use they should be supplemented by specific advice 
as to special measures required in different parts of India, which have so 
far developed on very different lines. With this object, local Government 
suggest addition of words "the several provinces of" before ".British India" 
in first paragraph of draft terms of reference. 

It is suggested by Punjab that enquiry should embrace reference to suit- 
ability of existing educational methods and curricula as applied to needs of 
rural population, and to possibility of providing better ground work for those 
who desire to study in agricultural courses. Local Government considers 
that it should be open to Ministers to suggest lines of detailed enquiry 
required in particular interests of their own provinces, and to seek Eoyal 
Commission's advice on any point of importance to Departments of which 
they are in charge. Local Government also hopes that Governor and his 
Ministers will be consulted regarding personnel of Commission. 

Bengal assumes- that proposed terms of reference would cover investiga- 
tion into measures for introduction of agricultural machinery and imple- 
ments, methods of compilation of 'agricultural statistics and facilities at 
present existing for co-operative purchase of agricultural requirements and 
0-operative sale of agricultural produce. In the opinion of local Govern- 
ment these are subjects which should also come within purview of Com- 
mission's investigations. 

Madras suggests including specifically the application of co-operative 
principles to agriculture in all its aspects, such ins production, credit, 
marketing, etc. 

North-West Frontier Province is of opinion that clause (d) of proposed 
terms of reference should include specific direction to investigate means by 
which it may be hoped that cultivator can be made a match for professional 
money-lender. 

Bombay while recognising value of proposed Commission believes that 
much of Commission's work would require to be supplemented by local 
investigation which in their present financial position they and possibly other 
Governments may tn unable to undertake. While, therefore, 



102 COUNCIL OF bTATE. [15TH FEB. 1926. 

welcoming in several respects Hie appointment of a Commission, local Gov- 
ernment point out that full measure of its benefits might be lost to Provinces 
by their inability to apply or follow up the results of the inquiries. Bombay 
adds that clause (d) covers a very wide range as at present worded and 
should be somewhat narrowed down so as to accord more strictly with 
proposed scope of Commission's recommendations. 

4. After having considered suggestions made by local Governments and 
Administrations, \u> are B of opinion that only new point, which may now be 
included in proposed terms of reference, is in relation to agricultural sta- 
tistics. With this object, we propose to insert in (a) of terms words 
"for the compilation of agricultural statistics" aftor words "demonstration 
and education". Questions relating to application of co-operative principles 
to agriculture are already covered by terms of reference and especially b^ 
(6) and (c). As stated in paragraph 2 above, Commission will consult with- 
Ministers responsible for co-operation, and this is an additional reason for 
non-inclusion of such questions in terms of reference. Suggestion of Punjab 
Government about education appears to fling net too wide. Royal Com- 
mission could not go into general scheme of primary and secondary education 
of rural population. Special agricultural education is sufficiently covered 
by (a) and under (d) it might be possible for Commission to recommend 'that 
ordinary primary and secondary education for agricultural population 
should be of a kind helpful to .agricultural vocation and not of character 
to alienate their sympathy from this industry. For this reason, we have 
not specifically included in proposed terms of reference any question of 
survey of general scheme of ordinary education. With reference to word 
"research" in (a) in terms of reference, it may be mentioned that in Punjab, 
apart from agricultural research, there is technical officer who studies 
problems of application of water for irrigation of different soils and crops 
and that this has direct bearing on agricultural productivity. 

5. We consider that it is desfrable to announce the decision to appoint 
a Royal Commission and to publish terms of reference at an early date, 
and we hope that you will find it possible to telegraph your orders. Above 
is with reference to your telegram No. 346-S., dated 20th November 1925. 



TELEGRAM FLIOM THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR INDIA, LONDON, TO THE 
VICEROY (EDUCATION DEPARTMENT), DELHI, No. 147, DATED 15 JANUARY 
1926. 

Terms of reference of lioyal Commission on Agriculture. I agree that; 
a reference to agricultural statistics is only alteration necessary. 

His Majesty the King has approved appointment of Commission and: 
you are authorised to make inn announcement to this effect. 

This is with reference to your telegram No. 71-8., of the 12th instant. 



Copies of the Debates of the Legislative Assembly and of the 
Council of State are obtainable on sale from the Manager, Central 
Publication Branch, 8, Hastings Street, Calcutta. 



COUNCIL OF STATE 
DEBATES 



TUESDAY, 16th FEBRUARY, 1926 

Vol. VII No. 4 
OFFICIAL REPORT 




CONTENTS 

Member Sworn. 

Messages from His Excellency the Governor General. 

Bill passed by the Legislative Assembly Laid on the 
Table. 

Small Cause Courts (Attachment of Immoveable Pro- 
perty) Bill Passed. 

Code oi Criminal Procedure (Amendment) Bill Passed. 

Government Trading Taxation Bill Passed. 

Guardians and Wards (Amendment) Bill Passed. 

Indian Lunacy (Amendment) Bill Passed. 



mem r 

GOVERNMENT OF TNDFA PHESS 
1926 



Price Five 



COUNCIL OF STATE. 

Tuesday, 16th February, 19Z6. 



The Council met in the Council Chamber at Eleven of the Clock, the 
Honourable the President in the Chair. 



MEMBER SWORN. 

The Honourable Sir Bijay Chand Mahtab, G.C.I.E., K.C.S.I., 
T.O.M., Maharajadhiraja Bahadur of Burdwan (Bengal: Nominated Non- 
Official), 



MESSAGES FROM HIS EXCELLENCY THE GOVERNOR GENERAL. - 

THE HONOURABLE THE PRESIDENT : I have a Message for the Council 
from His Excellency the Governor General which runs : 

(The Message was received by the Members of the CouncH standing). 

11 In pursuance of the provision* of sub-section (3) of section 67 of the 
Government of India Art, I hereby direct that the heads of expenditure specified 
in that sub-section shall be open to discussion by the Council of State when the 
Budget is under consideration, 

(Sd.) READING, 

Governor General." 

There is a further Message which runs : 

(The Message was received by the Members of the Council standing). 

11 For thf purposes of svb-stction (7) of section G7A of the Government of India 
Act, and in pursuance of Pules J3, 4fi and 47 of the. Indian Legislative Rules and of 
Standing Order 70 of the Council of State Standing Order*, I, Rufue Daniel, Earl of 
Reading, hereby appoint the following days for the presentation to the Council of 
State and' to the Legislature Assembly of the statement of the estimated annual 
expenditure and revenue, of the. Governor (General in Council in respect of subjects 
other than Railways and- {or the, subsequent stages in respect thereof in the Council 
of State and in the Legislative Assembly, 'namely: 

Monday , March, 1st ... ... Presentation in both Chambers. 

Thursday, Afarch, th ... ... ] General discussion in the Legislative, 

Friday, March, 5th ... ... ) Assembly. 

Saturday, March, ffth ... ... General discussion in the Council of 

State. 



Monday, -March, 8th 

Tuesday, March, 9th 

Wednesday, March, H 

Thursday, March, Hi 

Friday, March, 12th ... ... J 



Monaay, -afarcn, a in ... '.--I 

Tuesday, March, 9th ... ... _, _ . _ _ . _ 

Wednesday, March, 10th ... ... L Voting of Demands 'for Grants in 

Thursday, March, llth ... ... f the Legislative Assembly. 



(Sd.) READING, 
Viceroy and Governor General. 9 



BILL PASBBD BY THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY LAID ON 

THE TABLE. 

THE SECBETAEY OF THE COUNCIL : Sir, in accordance with Rule 25 
of the Indian Legislative Rules, I lay on the table copies of a Bill further to 
amend the Code of Criminal Procedure, 1898, for a certain purpose which 
was passed by the Legislative Assembly at its meeting held on the 15th 
February, 1926. 



SMALL CAUSE COURTS (ATTACHMENT OF IMMOVEABLE 

PROPERTY) BILL. 

THE HONOURABLE MR. S. R. DAS (Law Member) : Sir, I move : 

" That the Bill to resolve certain doubts as to the powers, in regard to the attach- 
ment of immoveable property, of Provincial Small Cause Courts, as passed by the 
Legislative Assembly, be taken into consideration." 

This Bill .is intended to settle a doubt which has recently been raised 
as to the power of Provincial Small Cause Courts to attach immoveable 
property before judgment. These Courts have no power to entertain any 
suits with regard to immovcable property nor have they any power to 
.attach immoveable property in execution of their decrees. They had prior 
to the Code of Civil Procedure of 1908 no power to attach immoveablo pro- 
perty before judgment, but since the passing of the Act of 1908 and very 
recently a doubt had been raised as to whether the Provincial Small Cause 
Courts "have power to attach immoveable property before judgment. Thero 
is no question that they have no such power to attach after judgment. So 
far as it can be made out, the Legislature when passing the Act of 1908 
never intended to give any such power to Provincial Small Cause Courts, 
but the Committee which framed the Act of 1908 in re-arranging the provi- 
sions of the Code of Civil Procedure with regard to the powers of the Small 
Cause Courts have so arranged a provision that a doubt has been raised 
as to whether the Small Cause Courts have now been given power to attach 
before judgment. Recently a Full Bench of the Calcutta High Court 
had this question before them and by a majority they held that as the 
Civil Procodure Code was now arranged power seems to have been given 
to Small Cause Courts so to attach, although the Judges held that there 
was some doubt as to whether the Legislature really intended that. Afl a 
matte? oi fact, these Courts, as tho House is aware, are intended for speedy 
disposal of small causes, and that is the reason why they have not been 
given any power to deal with immoveable property which raises generally 
complicated questions of fact and law. This doubt having been raised, ' it 
became necessary to settle it and practically all the High Courts are agreed 
that the Small Cause Courts should not have power to attach before juSg- 
ment. Of course, it is a very anomalous position. They have not got 
power to attach after decree and necessarily they should not have power 
to attach before decree. This was placed before the Legislative Assembly 
and they have passed the "Bill. Now I move that the Bill, as passed by 
the Legislative Assembly, be talcen into consideration by this House. 

The motion was adopted. 

Clauses 2. 3 and 4 were added to the Bill. 

"Clause 1 was added to the Bill. 

The Title *nd the Preamble were added to the Bill. 

( -104 ) 



SMALL CAUSE COURTS (ATTACHMENT OF IMMOVBABLE PROPERTY) BILL. 105 

BE HONOURABLE MR. S. ! 
legislative Assembly, be 

The motion was adopted. 



THE HONOURABLE MR. S. E. DAS: I move that the Bill, as passed by 
the Legislative Assembly, be passed. 



CODE OF CRIMINAL PKOCEDUEE (AMENDMENT) BILL. 
THE HONOURABLE MR. J. CREHAB (Home Secretary) : I move : 

" That the Bill further to amend the Code of Criminal Procedure, 1898, as passed 
by the Legislative Assembly, be taken into consideration." 

This is a small Bill comprising four or five separate items, the necessity 
for which has become apparent in the course of experience of the applica- 
tion of some of the amendments carried out in the Code of Criminal Pro- 
cedure in 1923. I can hardly say that these items present any single 
definite principle except this, that it is desirable to remove, the administra- 
tive inconveniences that have been observed to arise; and the safeguards 
which it is proposed to set up will operate almost entirely in favour of 
witnesses and of accused persons. I do not think I need go more into the 
actual details of the Bill than to illustrate my point in the case of one or 
two of the provisions of the Bill. Honourable Members will see that it is 
proposed to repeal sub-section (4) of section 170. The result will be that, 
while in many cases witnesses are now required to present themselves in 
court on a day when the accused himself has not been produced and are com- 
pelled to go and waste their time, return to their villages and appear on 
some later date, this harassment and inconvenience will be largely reduced. 
The effect of another clause is that, when ti complaint is filed, it will be 
necessary for some formal documentary record to be maintained either in 
the form of a written complaint or, where the complaint is not in writing, 
by means of an examination of the complainant reduced to writing. Again 
when a complaint is made in pursuance of section 476 by a court in respect 
of certain offences against public justice or certain contempts, as the Code at 
present stands the Magistrate" to whom that complaint is referred is practi- 
cally bound to issue process against the person complained against. Now 
it may quite conceivably happen, and in fact it has occasionally happened, 
that if the Magistrate were empowered to direct an inquiry or investigation 
before actually issuing process, the necessity of bringing the person com- 
plained against into court would be obviated. These are instances of the 
general effect of these amendments. They will, as I have said, operate to 
reduce the hardship and inconvenience entailed on witnesses and accused 
persons. 

The motion was adopted. 

. Clauses 2, 3, 4, 5 and 6 were added to the Bill. 
Clause 1 v?as added to the Bill. 
The Title and the Preamble were added to the Bill. 

THE HONOURABLE MR. J. CBERAR : I move that the Bill, as passed by 
Legislative Assembly, be passed. 

The motion waa adopted. 



GOVEKNMENT TRADING TAXATION BILL. 

THE HONOUHABLE MR. A. C. Me WAITERS (Finance Secretary): 1 
move : 

" That the Bill to determine the liability of certain Governments to taxation in 
British India in respect of trading operations, as passed by the Legislative Assembly, be 
taken into consideration." 

This is a very simple Bill of ?i non-controversial character. It is the 
result of a recommendation accepted at the last Imperial Economic Con- 
ference in 1923. The principle involved is one which, I am sure, has only 
to be mentioned to meet with universal acceptance. It is that any Govern- 
ment in the Empire which takes part in trading operations or commercial 
undertakings in any other part of the Empire should be subjected to the 
same taxation as any business concern. The proposal to legislate on these 
lines was referred to all Local Governments and all of them have agreed 
to it. The Government of India waited to see the form which the corres- 
ponding legislation would take in the United Kingdom, and this Bill follows 
the corresponding provisions of the British Finance Act of last year. 

The motion was adopted. 

Clause 2 was added to the Bill. 

Clause J was added to the Bill. 

The Title and the Preamble were added to the Bill. 

THE HONOURABLE MM. A. C McWATTERS : 1 move that the Bill, as 
passed by the Legislative Assembly, be passed. 

The motion was adopted. 

GUARDIANS AND WARDS (AMENDMENT) BILL. 

THE HONOURABLE MR. S. R. DAS (Law Member): I move: 

" That the Bill further to amend the Guardians and Wards Act, 1890, as passed 
by the Legislative Assembly, be taken into consideration." 

This is a very short Bill introduced with a view to carry out one of the 
recommendations of the Civil Justice Committee. I cannot do better than 
read from an extract from that Committee with reference to this matter. 
The Committee says : 

"Section 4 of the Guardians and Wards Act (VIII of 1890), defines the Court as 
' the District Court having jurisdiction to entertain an application under the Act 
for an order appointing or declaring a person as guardian and in any matter relating 
to the ward the District Court having jurisdiction in the place where the ward for 
the time being ordinarily resides.' By that Act jurisdiction in guardian and wards 
cases is given exclusively to tjie District Judge and an appeal lies to the High Court 
against his orders in a variety of matters, such as the appointment and declaration 
of guardians and their removal or discharge, the custody of minors and the regulation 
of the conduct or proceedings of the guardian. 

Applications under the Act often relate to estates whose value is much less than 
the pecuniary jurisdiction of Munaifs. They are sometimes filed with the sole object 
of stopping a marriage, securing the custody of a minor or harassing a woman who is 
managing her infant's estate as natural guardian or for other ulterior purposes uncon- 
nected with the welfare of the minor and often in order to allow of alienataon of 
immovable property to pay ancestral debts. The guardian when appointed is put on 
terms and in the discharge of his duties under the bond executed by him,, he files 
accounts and from time to time seeks the directions of the court on Vatwus ttittftefcs. 
The hearing and determination of these applications,- naturally take time and interfere 
with other more .important work of the District Judge. " 

( 106) 



GUARDIANS AND WARDS (AM^U^ MEN T) DILL. 107 



Section 19 of the Central Provinces Act, and section 30 of th*. Pun jab,. Courts Act 
provide for the transfer of proceedings under the Guardians and Wards Act, 1890, to 
any Subordinate Judge 1 according to the general or special order otf the Judicial Commis- 
sioner and High i Court respectively. The absence of similar provisions in the Civil 
Courts Acts of other Provinces has .nothing to do with the propriety or desirability 
of the devolution of the District Judge's powers at the present 'day to lower judicial 
tribunals under his control- Here 'again -we consider there is no objection to contested 
cases being heard by senior subordinate Judges. The power, already exists under the 
Punjab and Central Provinces Acts, and we consider that it should be used when 
necessary and provision made in the other Civil Courts Acts for similar powers of 
transfer." 

Well, instead of making provision in other Civil Courts Acts it has been 
thought better to amend the Guardians and Wards Act itself and provide 
for the recommendation of the Civil Justice Committee. This is a very 
,short Bill. It enables the High Courts and the District Courts to empower 
courts subordinate to the District Court to hear applications under the 
Guardians and Wards Act. It also empowers the District Court to transfefr 
from one Subordinate Court to itself or to another Subordinate Court any 
of these applications. It means a saving of a good deal of time by the 
taking of a number of minor applications by Subordinate Courts instead of 
having them made in the District Court or the High Court. 

The motion was adopted. 

Clauses 2, 3, 4 and 5 were added to the Bill. 

Clause 1 was added to the Bill. 

The Title and the Preamble were added to the Bill. 

THE HONOURABLE MR. S. K. DAS: Sir, I move that the Bill, as passed 
by the Legislative Assembly, be passed. 

Thu motion was adopted. 



INDIAN LUNACY (AMENDMENT) BILL. 

THE HONOURABLE MR. J. C REE AT3. (Home Secretary) : Sir, I move : 

11 That the Bill further to amend the Indian Lunacy Act, 1912, as passed by the 
Legislative Assembly, be taken into consideration." 

The object of this Bill is to remove a defect which exists in our present 
law relating to lunacy to which attention has been drawn by one of the 
most eminent alienists in India. Under sections 5 and 6 of the existing 
Act before a lunatic can, in certain circumstances, be received into an 
asylum it is necessary for a reception order to be made by a Magistrate, and 
petition can be made for such a reception order by the persona specified in 
clause 6 of the Bill, the husband or wife of the alleged lunatic or any other 
relative of his. Coming to a later provision of the Act, section- 32, we see 
in what circumstances lunatics may be discharged. It is provided in that 
section that a lunatic may be discharged on the petition of the person on 
whose petition the original reception order was made. Now considerable 
inconvenience has been experienced because, if the person who originally 
made the petition for a reception order is dead or cannot be found, action 
cannot be taken under this section. The object of the Bill therefore is to lay 
down a procedure, which Honourable Members will observe, is very carefully 
regulated and safeguarded, by which a Magistrate may make what is known 



108 tttoirtiL otp BTA*S. [16 FEB. 

[Mr. J. Crerar.] 

as a substitution order. That is to say, if the person who originally made 
the petition cannot be found, or for various reasons it is impracticable or 
inexpedient that action should be taken on his petition, then another fit 
and proper person may be substituted after due inquiry. That will greatly 
facilitate and render more elastic the procedure for the discharge of a lunatic. 
That is the object of the measure. 

The motion was adopted. 

Clauses 2, 3 and ~4 were added to the Bill. 

Clause 1 was added to the Bill. 

The Title and the Preamble were added to the Bill. 

THE HONOURABLE MR. J. CRERAR : I move. Sir, that the Bill, as passed 
by the Legislative Assembly, be passed. 

The motion was adopted. 

The Council then adjourned till Eleven of the Clock on Wednesday, the 
17th February, 1926. 



Copies of the Debates of the Legislative Assembly and of the 
Council of State are obtainable on sale from the Manager, Central 
Publication Branch, 8, Hastings Street, Calcutta. 



COUNCIL OF STATE 
DEBATES 



WEDNESDAY, 17th FEBRUARY, 1926 

Vol. VII No. 5 



OFFICIAL REPORT 




CONTENTS 



Questions and Answers. 

Private Notice Questions and Answers. 

Statement regarding Negotiations with the Union Govern- 
ment of South Africa. 

Resolution re Leader of the Indian Delegation to the 
League of Nations Adopted. 

Resolution re Formation of a separate Kannada 
Province Negatived . 



DELHI 

GOVERNMENT OP INDIA PRESS 
19% 



Price Five Annas. 



COUNCIL OF STATE. 

Wednesday, 17th February, 1926. 



The Council met in the Council Chamber at Eleven of the Clock, the 
Honourable the President in the Chair. 



QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS. 

DECLARATION OF THE SONTHAL PARGAXAS AS A BACKWARD TRACT. 

97. THE HONOURABLE MR. MAHENDKA PEASAD : (a) Will the 
Government be pleased to state if the district of Sonthal Parganas is 
declared backward under section 52/A, Clause 2, of the Government of 
India Act? 

(b) If the answer be in the affirmative, will the Government be pleased 
to lay on the table the copy of the notification issued declaring the Sonthal 
Parganfis to bo a backward tract? 

THE HONOURABLE Mu. J. ORE EAR : (a) Yes. 

(b) I do not think it necessary to Jay a copy of the notification which 
is somewhat voluminous on tho table. Honourable Members who desire 
to refer to it will find it reproduced on pages 261 to 263 of the publica- 
tion of the Government of India Act find rules, copies of which are in the 
Library- 

APPLICATION OF SECTION 71 (1) OF TITE GOVERNMENT OF INDIA ACT 

TO THK SOXTHAT. PAllCANAS. 

98. THE HONOURABLE MR. MAHENDRA PRASAD : (a) Will the 
.Government be pleased to state if section 71 (1) of the Government, of India 
Act is in force in respect of the Sonthal Parganas? 

'(b) If the answer to (a) bo in the affirmative, will the Government be 
pleased to lay on the table the copy of the notification by .which section 
71 (1) of the Government of India Act was applied to the Sonthal Parganas? 

THE HONOURABLE MR. J. CKEKAB: (a) Yes. 

(b) A copy of the notification of the Government of India in the Home 
Department, No. 478, dated the 12th March 1872, is placed on the 
table. The territories referred to are those which now comprise the 
Sonthal Parganas. 



JUDICIAL. 

The JSth March 1872. 

No. 4.78. It is hereby notified that the Secretary of State for India has, by 
Kesolution in Council, declared the provision? of the 1st Section of an Act passed in 
the 33rd year of Her Majesty's reign Chap. 3, entituled an Act to make better provision 

( 109 ) A 



110 



COUNCIL OF STATE. 



[17-rn FEB. 192ff, 



for making Laws and Regulations for certain parts of India and for certain* other 
purposes relating thereto, to be from the 15th day of March, 1872, applicable to the 
following parts of the territories under the government of the Lieut enant-Governor oft 
Bengal, that is to say : 

THE DAMIN-I-KOH. 

So much of Pergunnah Bhaugulpore and of Pergunnah Sutticare as lies east of the- 
Gerooah Nuddee and south of a line drawn eastward from Humza Chuck to the.- 
village of Dighee, 



Z HI ah Bhaugulpore. 

Pergunnah Telecagurhee 
Jumooriee 
Chetowleah 
Kankjole 
Bahadurpore 
Akbernuggur 
Inayutnuggur 
Mukraen 
Sooltangunge 

Zillah Bhaugulpore. 

Pergunnah Umber 

Sooltanabad 
Godda 

Umloo Mootesh 
Pussye 
Hendwa 
Tuppeh Muneeharee 
Belputta 



Except such parts of them as are* 
now or may be hereafter situate 
on the left bank of the main 
stream of the Ganges so that in 
iiny chnngt! in the course of the 
river the main stream shall be. 
the. 1 boundary. 






Except such detached villages as 
lie within the general boundaries 
of Pergunnahs not mentioned irt 
this Schedule. 



...j 



Zillah Beerbhoom. 

Pergunnah Pubbia 
Tuppeh Saruth Deoghur 

,, Kundit Kuraye ... ... | Except such detached villages ass 

,, Mohumdabad ... ... > lie within the general boundariess 

Such part of Pergunnah Dureen Molissui 1 I of Pergunnahs not mentioned 

as lies north of the Chilia or Chundun Ghat in this Schedule. 

Nullah ... ... ... ...J 

Such detached portions of other Pergunnahs and Tuppehs as lie within the general 
boundaries of any of the above-mentioned Pergunnahs and Tuppehs. 

Such portions of Pergunnahs belonging to Maldah and Purneah below the village 
of Khederpore in Pergunnah Teleeagurhee as are now or may hereafter be situate on- 
th right bank of the main stream of the Ganges. 



REGULATION VII OP 1925. 

99. THE HONOURABLE MR. MAHENDHA PKASAD : (a) Will the- 
Government be pleased to state if the Local Government of Bihar and 
Orissa submitted any objects and reasons for the promulgation of Regula- 
tion VII of 1925, along with the draft as required by section 71 of the 
Government of India Act? 

(b) If the Government of India circulated the draft of Regulation VII 
of 1925 for eliciting public opinion before its enactment? 

(c) If the answer to (a) be in the affirmative, will the Government be 
pleased to lay on the table the said objects and reasons and any correspon- 
dence between the Bihar and Orissa Government and the Government of 
India relating to Regulation VII of 1925? 

(d) If the answer to (b) be in the affirmative, will the Government be 

. pleased to lay on the table the opinions received from local officers and the: 
public? * 



QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS. Ill 

THE HONOOIUBLE SIR MUHAMMAD HABIBULLAH: (a) and (o)^ 
The reasons for the Regulation which was promulgated by the Govern- 
ment of India as Regulation VII of 1925 were stated in the letter from 
the Government of Bihar and Orissa No. 1142/III-P.-3-R. T., dated 
28th August, 1925, copies of which and of the reply of the Government 
of India, No. 499/25-G., dated 21st December 1925, are placed in the- 
Library of tht House. 

(6) It is not usual for the Government of India to circulate for public 
opinion the draft Regulations proposed by Local Governments under section - 
71 of the Government of India Act. A reference to paragraph 7 of the 
Bihar and Orissa Government's letter of 28th August 1925, referred to,, 
will however show that that Government satisfied themselves after con-i 
sultation with the principal proprietors of the district that the measure 
met with general approval. 

(d) Does not arise. 



PRIVATE NOTICE QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS. 

THE HONOURABLE MR. PIIIROZK C. SETHNA: Sir, His Excellency 
the Command er-in-Chief has been pleased to accept private notice of a 
question. Have I your permission to read it out, Sir? 

THE HONOURABLE THE PRESIDENT: Yes. 



REPORT OP THE TERRITORIAL AND AUXILIARY FORCES COMMITTEE. 

THE HONOURABLE MR. PHIROZE C. SETHNA: Will Government be 
pleased to state in regard to the Report of the Territorial and Auxiliary 
Forces Committee which was published nearly a year back 

(a.) if the same has been considered? 
-(b) if all or any of its recommendations are approved? and 

(c) the earliest date when thoir decision will be made public and 
given effect to? 

His EXCELLENCY THE COMMANDER-IN-CHIEF: (a.) to (c) The Gov- 
ernment of India have been actively considering the Report of the Auxiliary 
and Territorial Forces Committee, but they have, so far, not reached any 
final conclusion. I may mention that actually the final replies of all 
Local Governments have not yet been received. Government expect, 
however, to decide in a very short time upon the course of action which 
they propose to take on the recommendations of the Committee. But 
it will then be necessary to address the Secretary of State. 

PURCHASE OF FOREIGN RAILS BY COMPANY-MANAGED RAILWAYS. 

THE HONOURABLE MR. PHIROZE C. SETHNA: (1) Is it a fact that 
the Indian Railways not under Government management are at present 
contemplating the purchase of foreign rails? 

(2) In view of the recommendation of the Tariff Board in their original 
and supplementary reports as to the price which should be obtained by 

A 2 



.112 COUNCIL Or STATE. [17TII FEB. 1926. 

the Indian manufacturer for rails, and the fact that the scheme of pro- 
jection accepted by Government and the Assembly has in this respect 
failed, will Government consider the advisability of immediately imposing 
a duty similar to the duties imposed on other classes of steel on foreign 
.rails in order to protect the Indian manufacturer against such foreign 
.impcrts? 

(3) Are Government aware that recently tho London and North 

Eastern Hail way in England passed orders to the effect that no steel 

i other than that of British manufacture was to be used for certain 

.articles on their Railway, and have Government brpught this expression 

of policy on the part of this English Railway to the notice of the Indian 

Railways who contemplate ordering foreign steel? 

(4) Is it a fact that the Indian Railways in question are contemplat- 
ing the order for immediate delivery of a sufficient quantity of foreign 
rails to meet their requirements for several years with the object of 

* evading any protective duties thaf may be imposed as a result of the 

further inquiry into protection for steel promised by Government? 

'(5) If so, are Government taking any steps to prevent such evasion 
*of their professed policy? 

TIIE HONOURABLE THK PRESIDENT: Before the reply is given by 
fthe Government to .the Honourable Member's question, I think I should 
point out to tho House imd to the Honourable Mr. Sethna, in particular, 
-that there are considerable portions of his question which, if notice had 
.been given in the ordinary way, I should probably have found myself 
obliged to disallow. The greater portion of part (2) of the question, more 
than the first lialf of it, is argumentative, and would probably have to 
"be omitted, and the last portion of part (4) of the question contains an 
inference, that is to say, it is purely the Honourable Member's own 
opinion as to tho object of the action taken by ccrlain Railways. 'I 
understand, however, that the Honourable Member (Mr. Chadwick) is 
perfectly prepared to answer the question and therefore I do not propose 
to tako any formal steps to have the question amended. 

THE HONOURABLE MR. D. T. CHADWICK: (1) No. The position is 
that certain of the Company-managed Railways contemplate calling for 
tenders for the supply of rails for next year. In preparing their tenders 
Indian manufacturers of rails will have the advantage of the protection and 
bounties afforded to them by the Steel Industry (Protection) Act and 
by the recent Resolution passed in the Legislature. 

(2) The Indian manufacturer already receives in regard to rails by 
way of duty plus bounty the same assistance as he receives in regard to 
other articles ho manufactures. It is not understood that the Honourable 
Member suggests that a greater degree of protection should He given to 
rails than to other steel articles manufactured in India. The Govern- 
ment cannot accept the assumption that the mere fact that some of the 
Railways propose to call for tenders connotes that tHe scheme of pro- 
jection has failed. 

(3) Yes. 

{4) The answer ia in the negative. 
') Does not arise. 



PRIVATE NOTICE QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS. 

THE HONOURABLE SIR ARTHUR FROOM: Are the Government aware 
whether the action of the North Eastern Railway at home of the issue 
of an order to purchase rails of British manufactured steel was based on 
a question of quality? 

THE HONOURABLE MR. D. T. CHAD WICK : I am not aware of all the 
considerations which influenced the North Eastern Railway Company to 
issue that order. 

THE HONOURABLE SIR ARTHUR FROOM: Arc Government aware 
that recently Japan placed large orders for British rails on account ,of 
quality ? 

THE HONOURABLE MR. D. T. CHADWTCK : I am aware that Japanese 
Railway Administrations recently published a report that they found that 
of all their purchases of rails those from Great Britain had proved to 
be the most satisfactory in Actual use l 



STATEMENT REGARDING NEGOTIATIONS WITH THE UNKW 
GOVERNMENT OF SOUTH AFRICA. 

THE HONOURABLE SIR MUHAMMAD HABIBULLAH (Member for 
Education, Health and Lands) : Sir, in his speech at the opening of the 
Legislative Assembly, His Excellency the Viceroy outlined the general 
course which the neciotiations with South Africa regarding the Asiatic 
question have taken, and appealed to the House to continue to trust the 
Government while the negotiations were still proceeding. The Govern- 
ment of India and the Union Government of South Africa have now agreed 
that a stage has been reached at which the correspondence that has passed 
between the two Governments during the last year can suitably be made 
public. I am therefore placing in the Library of the House copies cf 
the communications that have passed between the two Governments on 
the subject of the position of Indians in South Africa. 

From this correspondence it will be seen that last April, with the- 
approval of the Secretary of State for India, the Government of India took 
up with the Union Government direct the question of formulating a 
comprehensive Indian policy in South Africa which would be acceptable 
to all the parties concerned, and utilised the suggestion thrown out by Mr: 
Thomas, Secretary of State for the Colonies, to propose a conference on the? 
subject preferably in South Africa, but if the Union Government so desired 
in India, or on netural ground such as Geneva. In the alternative, they 
asked the Union Government to make other suggestions to bring about ** 
satisfactory settlement of the Indian question. The Union Government 
replied in June last that, while they were quite ready to receive sugges- 
tions from the Government of India towards making their policy of "c- 
patriation more effective, they regretted their inability to agree to a con- 
ference since it was the policy of all parties in South Africa, by means 
of strict prohibition of Indian immigration and of active repatriation, ta 
reduce the Indian population in the country, as nearly as possible, to an 
irreducible 'minimum, and, such a conference would be viewed with suspi- 
cion as an interference from outside. On July 14th, the Government of 
India renewed the .suggestion for a conference on the ground that repatria- 
tion could not by itself provide an effective solution of the problem since- 



1H COUNCIL OF STATB. [17TH FEB. 1926. 

[Sir Muhammad Habibullah.J, 

63 per cent, of the resident Indian population were born in South Africa 
and regarded that country as their home, and on the ground that in order r) 
arrive at a satisfactory settlement, alternative measures of mitigating 
European and Asiatic competition in the economic sphere should be ex- 
plored. In July the Areas Eeservation and Immigration and Eegistration 
(Further Provision) Bill embodying; the policy of the Union Government 
towards the Asiatic problem was introduced, and in September the Union 
Government replied regretting their inability to hold a conference on the 
Indian question, unless its main object was more effective repatriation and 
unless ib was limited to some definite and concrete questions connected 
therewith. They seemed, however, inclined to favour conversations both 
in connection with repatriation and with methods of reducing Asiatic and 
European competition. In October the Government of India replied to 
tlio Union Government, that, before entering into a discussion of the re- 
patriniion question or the. general question of alleviating direct competition, 
they would like to send a deputation to South Africa to collect informa- 
tion regarding ihc economic condition and general position of Indians re- 
siding in the Dominion. The Government of South Africa agreed to this 
proposal on November 10th, and tho deputation sailed from Bombay on 
November 2oth. Its defined purpose was to inquire into and report on the 
economic condition and general position of the resident Indian community 
in South Africa and to form an appreciation of their wishes and require- 
ments with a view to furnishing material to the Government of India fcr 
use in connection with their negotiations with the Union Government. 
'That deputation has collected material and come to provisional conclusions 
which enabled the Government of India on January 10th to press once 
again on tho Union Government the desirability of a round table conference 
on the whole question, or, failing that, a fresh inquiry, before the proposed 
legislation was proceeded with. The Union Government replied on Feb- 
ruary 6th that they fully realised our anxiety to place the case of the 
Indian community in South Africa as fully as possible before them. They 
expressed their willingness, therefore, to propose the reference of the 
Asiatic Bill to a Select Committee before the second reading so as to en- 
able the Committee to take evidence on the principles of the Bill as well 
as on its details, subject to the understanding that the Committee should 
be required to report to Parliament within such limited period as would 
^nablc Parliament to deal finally with the proposed legislation during the 
present session. This offer the Government of India have accepted, but 
they have made it clear that their objections to the Bill are fundamental 
and that they are instructing their deputation to present the case before 
the Select Committee in respect of general principles. It will follow from 
the statement of their objections to principles that the Government of 
India are also opposed to the details of the Bill; but it is not proposed 
to discuss the latter because the Government of India cannot take any 
action which might be thought even remotely to imply that they are pre- 
pared to waive fundamental objections or acquiesce in the principle of the 
Bill. 

s 

From this very brief summary of the course which the ' negotiations 
iiave taken, it will be clear that the Government of India have obtained 
two important results. In the first place, they have, for the first time 



-NEGOTIATIONS WITH THE UNION GOVERNMENT OF SOUTH AFRICA. H6 

'since Sir Benjamin Kobertson's deputation, their own representatives on 
the spot in South Africa who are in a position to keep them informed of 
*the progress of events and to present the Indian case on their behalf before 
-the Select Committee, when it is appointed. While the Government of 
India have on their records a mass of evidence relating to the position of 
Indians in South Africa, they feel the necessity of keeping it up to date 
and abreast of the changing economic conditions of the Union and of relat- 
ing it to the particular legislation under consideration. They are anxious 
moreover to establish closer touch with the wishes and needs of the Indian 
jcommunity in South Africa. It is in these respects that the presence oc 
their deputation in South Africa is proving invaluable to them. Secondly, 
they have induced the Union Government to agree that the Asiatic Bill 
should be referred to the Select Committee before, instead of after, tho 
second reading. The principles involved in this Bill are so gravo. and its 
effects on the position of Indians in South Africa are of such far-reaching 
consequence, that the Government of India, attach great importance to 
this concession. India naturally takes the strangest objection to measures 
calculated to relegate Indians to a position inferior to that of other classes 
of (His Majesty's subjects. The Select Committee before the second 
reading gives a desired opportunity of stating the case and opposing the 
Bill on these grounds before the Legislature of the Union is committed 
to the principle of the Bill. Tho Government of India gratefully 
acknowledge tho assistance that they have derived in tho past from the atti- 
tude of the Legislature in regard to Indian affairs in South Africa and they 
trust that, when the Members of the two Chambers have had an opportunity 
of studying the correspondence which is now made public, they will 
approve of the line which has been taken. 



E HONOURAHLM MR. PHIUOZE C. RETHNA (Bombay : Non-Muham- 
madan) : Sir, I am sure the House and the country at large will feel 
very grateful to Government 'for the statement which the Leader of the 
House has made to us to-day. I would however like to ask the 
'Honourable Sir Muhammad Habibullah if it would suit Government to 
name a dny when the statement he has read out and the correspondence 
Jie has laid on the table might bo discussed in this House. 

THE HONOUJIABLE SIR MUHAMMAD HABIBULLAH : Sir, I must say 
that I am not in a position, on the spur of the moment, to accept the 
suggestion which has been made by the Honourable Member opposite, 
"but I can assure him that I shall give the matter my best consideration 
find announce the decision as soon as I possibly can. 



RESOLUTION RE LEADEE OF THE INDIAN DELEGATION TO THE 

LEAGUE OF NATIONS. 

THE HONOURABLE MR. PHIROZE C. SETHNA (Bombay: Non-Muham- 
madan) : Sir, I beg to move : 

"/That this Council recommends to the Governor General in Council to appoint 
an Indian of suitable rank and qualifications to be the leader of the delegation 
representing India at tho next session of the Assembly of the League of Nations." 

About two years ago, or to be precise on 10th March, 1924, I moved *i 
Eesolution in the then Council of l^te on identically the same lines as 
>the Eesolution I have just now reflr out. In moving the Resolution, I 



116 COUNCIL OF STATE. [17TH FEB. 1926. 

[Mr. Phiroze C. Sethna.] 

pointed out that there were highly capable and distinguished Indians who- 
could certainly be trusted to lead the Indian Delegation to the Assembly 
of the League of Nations. In speaking on the Resolution the Leader of 
the House, the Honourable Sir Muhammad Shafi, on behalf of Government 
expressed full sympathy with the Resolution and gave an assurance that 
the proposal would receive the most careful consideration. Let me quote- 
his exact words. They were : 

" The Government of India fully recognise that the wish expressed in the Resolu- 
tion which has been moved by my Honourable friend, Mr. Sethda is natural. . . The 
Government of India fully recognise that fact, and the House may rest assured that 
the proposal will receive the most careful consideration of the Government of India 
when the time for appointment arrives." 

On this assurance being given I withdrew the Resolution. 

Nearly two years have passed since then and two sessions of the 
Assembly of the League of Nations have been held. But I regret very 
much to say that in spite of this assurance on the part of Government 
an assurance which was virtually in the nature of a promise no action 
has been taken in the matter and no Indian has been appointed to lead the 
Delegation. Nay, further, the Government have not taken the House 
into their confidence and have hitherto given no explanation whatever why 
the assurance given by Government has not been carried out. This is a. 
circumstance upon which it is impossible to congratulate Government. I 
do not wish to use harsh language, but it pains me to think that though 
Government recognised that the wish expressed in the Resolution was 
natural' and reasonable and promised sympathetic consideration, nothing 
was done either in 1924, or last your, to meet that natural and reasonable 
wish. 

India is an ori^iral member of the League of Nations. The Covenant 
of the League of Nations was signed at the Teace Cpnferencc at Versailles 
in 1919, by the late Mr. Montagu, His Highness the Maharaja of Bikanir 
and Lord Sinlw on behalf of India, together with the representatives of 12 
other States signatories to the Treaty of Versailles. These 12 States qre 
the orighi!i I members of the League of Nations, and that number has now 
increased to 55. Its present annual expenditure is roughly 900,000 and' 
the question of the allocation of this expenditure has been a very con- 
tentious problem. At first it was based on population. It is now based 1 
on the 'revenues of ench country which is a member of the League and each 
member is nsked to pay so many units. The total number of units for 
the years 1920-27 and 1928, is 937, and India, has to pay 56 units which 
is roughly G per cent, of the total contribution. I may state that there are 
only -four other countries which pay more than India. They are Great 
Britain which will pay 105 units, France 79. Italy and Japan 60 each 
and India 56. According to this we shall be paying annually about 
Be. 8,00,000 for our share for the next three years, and which certainly is 
a high sum to pay. I am aware that our delegates did the best they 
could at the last sessions with the result that -they have brought down- 
the payment bv India from 60 to 56 units, but we should very much like 
it to be reduced yet further. 

In this connection I may remind the House of the telegrams which 
appeared in this very morning's papers, which say thnt Germany is likely 
to be included amongst the permanent members of the Council. Thi* 
requires some explanation. The executive work of the Council of tha- 



LEADER OF THE INDIAN DELEGATION TO THE LEAGUE OF NATIONS. 117 

League of Nations is performed by 10 members. Of these 10, four are 
permanent and the permanent ones are England, Franco, Italy and Japan. 
These four pay the largest contributions-, their shares being respectively, 
England 105, France 79, Italy and Japan ft) each, India coming fifth with 
56 units. Besides these four permanent members, the Council consists 
of six more non-permanent members who are elected annually, and the 
point that I desire to make is, that the Government) of India should impress 
upon the Indian Delegation to take up the question at the next session 
and see that, because India is the fifth largest contributor and although 
it cannot become a permanent member, stll she ought on occasions to be 
made a non-permanent member. In 1925, the non-permanent members 
were such States as Brazil, Uruguay, Spain, Czecho Slovakia, Sweden 
and Belgium, and there is therefore greater reason- why India, which con- 
tributes as many as 56 units, Or 8 lakhs of o-upees a year, should be made 
certainly in some years a non-permanent member of the Committee of 
the League of Nations. 

Anything that enables India to play a part in International Councils 
is a source of gratification to the Indian people. During the war and 
some years after it, due care was taken to raise the international status 
of India and maintain and safeguard every point of vantage gained in 
that direction. The late Mr. Montagu was very particular in that respect. 
But of late years, a change seems to have taken place and no particular 
efforts are made to maintain and raise India's international status. The 
fact that India- is not yet a self-governing country involves in itself serious 
limitations upon our international status- with the result that we cannot 
yet rise to the full height of our stature. This fact in itself 
renders it necessary that in every international sphere which is open 
to the Indian people they should be enabled to truly represent their 
country and to fill positions of leadership and initiative. It is very 
humilriting to us to have always to fill subordinate plnces find to play 
second fiddle to other people, however able and eminent they may be. 

Ever since the formation of the League of Nations distinguished 
Indians such as Lord Sinha, Sir Ali Imam, the Bt. Honourable Srinivasa 
Sabtri, Sir SiVaswamy Iyer, Sayyad Hussan Imam, Sir Dadiba Dalai, 
and Sir Atul Chatter jee have been appointed on the Indian Delegation and 
they have discharged their duties with credit to themselves and 10 
their country. Why should not the Delegation then be led by Indians? 
I see no reason whatever unless it be that when Britishers and Indians 
work together the first or leading place must necessarily be given to the 
iormer, even when India's representation is concerned and when thoroughly 
capable Indians are available. Such considerations have no longer any 
place and they ought not to weigh with Government. 

I know that Sir Muhammad Shaft" when replying to me two years ago 
did sny that the appointment of representatives will depend to a considerable 
extent upon what are the subjects which have to be discussed. Govern- 
ment 1 have not told us that the subjects discufcseoT in 1924, and ifj 1925, 
were such as could not be tackled, nnd' tackled efficient! v. by Indian re- 
presentatives if any Indian representative were in cnare*of the Delegation. 
We haye now Indians with considerable experience not' only in Government 
admirtistratiori matters, but in nil other c'rfa r npntions and I do not think 
th&t it Government arc at all serious in acceding to the wishes of the 
people that they will experience any difficulty. in finding- suitable Indians 



118 COUNCIL OF STATE. [1?TH FEB. 1926. 

[Mr. Phiroze C. Sethna.] 

to lead the deputation no matter whatever the subjects that come up for 
discussion. 

He next observed that so far no one has ever been actually appointed 
leader of the Indian Delegation by Government, but he in the same breath 
j added that as a matter of practice the British member has acted as the 
'leader because of his position and of his special qualifications. This clearly 
implies that whilst no one is officially recognised as the leader, yet Govern- 
ment look upon the British member of the Delegation as the leader and 
this is what my Resolution desires to avoid in the -future. The time will 
come when wo shall also put forward the claim that 'at the Imperial Confer- 
ence also an Indian should lead. I am not putting forward that claim at the 
present moment, but I certainly urge that the Indian Delegation to the 
League of Nations from now onwards will always be headed by an Indian. 

I trust my Resolution will meet with the ready support of the entire 
Council. 

THE HONOURABLE MR. V. EAMADAS PANTULU (Madras: Non- 
Muhammadan) : Sir, I beg to move the following amendment to the Reso- 
lution so ably proposed by the Honourable Mr. Sethna: 

" This Council recommends to the Governor General in Council that the leader and 
other members of the Delegation representing India at the next session of the Assembly 
of the League of Nations be appointed from out of a panel of six persons to be elected 
by both Chambers of the Central Legislature." 

I am entirely at one with the Resolution moved by my Honourable 
friend and I also heartily support the* very cogent reasons with 
which he backed the Resolution. My object in bringing this amend- 
ment is a very simple one. If India is to be represented in the 
League of Nations, it ought to be ireprescnted by persons who can 
really be defined as representatives of the people of India. Among 
the nations which constitute the League of Nations, there is already 
a feeling that England has got 6 votes on her side by including the 
Colonies and India as members of the League. The suspicion that existed 
against the Colonies was largely removed in later years by the independent 
line of action which the Dominion representatives took in the delibera- 
tions of the Assembly. We are told that with regard to India the sus- 
picion still exists. I am therefore anxious that the representatives who 
represent India in the Assembly ought to be in a position to take a line of 
-action which is their own, which is dictated by the interests of India alone. 
'With your permission, Sir, I shall read a small sentence from Roth' 
'Williams, League of Nations, To-day, page 170. It says: 

" One thing is certain unless substantial independence is achieved before League 
membership is applied for, other States -will object. The ' six votes to one ' cry was 
already raised when the Dominions came in and only stilled when it became obvious 
to the world at large that the Dominions are in fact independent nations and that 
their delegations to the Assembly take tlieir own line in all questions. But India is 
still looked at askance as a member of the League for the same reason." 

I wish to remove this impression on the minds of the Members of the 
League by giving India, if possible, an opportunity to let her representa- 
tives take their own line of action like the Dominions. When the Govern- 
ment of India nominates representatives it cannot be denied that the policy 
is dictated by the agency which nominates its representatives. Therefore 
my amendment is lx>th in the interests of England as well as of India, in 
:the interests of England to remove suspicion that England is weighting her 



LEADER OF THE INDIAN DELEGATION TO THE LEAGUE OF NATIONS. 119 

votes by the inclusion of India as one of the members in her own interest, 
.in the interests of India because she will get representation which is to 
some extent at least a real one. One objection that is raised is that in 
the case of other countries the Delegations are nominated by the Execu- 
tive Government and in no case do the Legislatures nominate these repre- 
sentatives. Sir, it is a fact, but you must remember that the Executives 
of other countries are responsible to the people, and therefore the nomina- 
tions made by the Executive will be in consonance with the popular wishes. 
India, however, occupies a very peculiar position in the constitution of the 
British Empire as well as in the League of Nations, and such representative 
character, as we can, consistently with our present constitutional position, 
give ought to bo offered to India. Therefore, I have suggested that the 
Government be requested to appoint this Delegation out of a panel of 6 
persons to be elected by the Central Legislature. I have taken care to 
say 6 persona advisedly. I do not say that these G persons ought to be 
xnembers of the Central Legislature. They can bo any persons outside the 
Legislature. At the same time, I have not asked that all these people 
should be Indians. They may be Europeans or they may be Indians. So 
long as the principle of representation is maintained and so long as India 
represents all nationalities who made India their home, I do not believe in 
excluding a European or an Englishman from the scope of election by the 
Central Legislature. Therefore, I have advisedly used the word "persons". 
There is another reason also, namely, that I find women are already ad- 
mitted to tho Assembly of the League of Nations. In the third Assembly 
-there was a very distinguished lady who represented a country and who 
startled the House by proclaiming that the League of Nations was very 
-soon to become a "League of Mothers." Therefore, my amendment does 
not have the effect of restricting the choice or the scope of selection. 

Then, Sir, while discussing this question with my friends, certain ob- 
jections were urged against this amendment and, when analysed, they 
resolve themselves into two. One objection is that some people do not 
seem to have faith in the Central Legislature. In fact, one friend, a col- 
league of mine, actually put me a strange question. He said supposing 
to-morrow the Legislature elects Mahatma Gandhi as a representative and 
the Swarajists elect him, is the Government to nominate him? Such a 
question really startled me because, if Mahatma Gandhi were to be induced 
to accept such an unreal position, I should think tho League of Nations 
.and India ought to feel honoured by his representation. I do not think that a 
distrust of the Central Legislature to discharge its duties properly in select- 
ing six representatives out of whom three can be selected, is justified. 
Then, Sir, the other objection raised was that the selection by the Central 
Legislature will to a great extent restrict the Government's choice. The 
<very object of my amendment is that the choice of Government ought to 
be restricted. The choice ought to be primarily with the representative 
'Government or tEe Government representing the people. In the absence 
of a representative Government, the choice is to be vested in the Central 
legislature, and therefore I have purposely restricted the scope of the Gov- 
ernment. But I have given as wide a field for choice as possible, in order 
that the Government may be satisfied with at least 3 out of the 6 persons of 
-the panel elected by the Central Legislature. On the question of the 
leadership, I am in entire agreement with the Honourable Mr. Sethna, and 
-perhaps I should have framed my amendment as a supplement to the 
original Resolution. But under the constitution of the League of Nations 
the^ three members ^of the Delegation command a single vote. Each Dele- 
gation has only a single vote and therefore all these three gentlemen who 



120 COUNCIT, OF STATE. [17TII FEB. 1926: 

[Mr. V. Ramadas Pantulu.] 

will represent us will cast one single vote. Even if the leader is an 
Indian and his two colleagues are Europeans who have come to a differ- 
rent conclusion, the Indian leader cannot cast a different vote. 
He could only try to persuade them by bringing to bear upon 
them his knowledge and skill in dealing with the question. "Beyond that 
he cannot go. He cannot have a separate vote. The object in view cannot 
be achieved merely by having an Indian as a leader because the three 
people act together and cast only a single vote. I doubt not that the Gov.- 
ernmorit will consider the claims of Indians for leadership. I have not the 
least idofi of running counter to the original Resolution moved by my friend 
Mr. Scthna. He has also referred to the desirability of nominating Indian 
representatives to the International Labour Conference and to the Imperiar 
Confcronce and such other international bodies in which India is represented. 
This Resolution, I take it, is only a symptomatic one and it expresses the 
desire of this House that India should be represented by Indian representa- 
tives as far as possible. There are competent men who can represent 
India in nil these Conferences, especially the International Labour Con- 
ference. There are both employers' and workmens' representatives who 
can represent India very honourably. Therefore, Sir, my aim is not to- 
embarniss the Government or to do anything which limits its scope of the 
choice of India's representatives to the League of Nations. My only idea 
is to make them real representatives of the country and not' to be consider- 
ed by the outside world as nominees of .the Executive Government which 
is itself irresponsible to the people/.of the country. So long as the Gov- 
ernment is irresponsible and also irresponsive, according to me, to the 
popular wishes of the people of India, the representatives of the Govern- 
ment of India will not carry any weight. As at present situated in the 
Lea.7U'\ \VP nro mtvrelv considered to be the tnil-benrrrs ^.f En^lnnd' and 
whatever we do \vo do nt the dictates of England. Will England give 
India's representatives n bolter status bv making them representatives of 
India? With these words, Sir, I move, my amendment and in doin^ so I 
heartily supporl the Resolution also and hope that this House \\\\\ be 
able to accept it. 

THE HONOURABLE TUB PRESIDENT: Amendment moved: 
f< That for the original Resolution the following be substituted : 

1 This Council recommends to the Governor General in Council that the leader- 
and other members of the Delegatibn representing India at the next session 
of the Assembly of the League of Nations be appointed from out of a 
panel of six: persons to be elected by both Chambers of the Central Legisla- 
ture '." 

THE HONOURABLE MR. S. R. DAS (Law Member): Sir, before I deal' 
with the proposal embodied in the amendment/ I thinfc it would, perhaps, 
be useful if I remind this House of the constitutional position in relation to 
tlie appointment of delegates to the Assembly of the League of Nations. 
I think the House will find that the practical difficulties which would artee, 
if effect were given to this Resolution, are much more in the case of India, 
situated as she is, than in the case of a self-governing State. Now; under 
Article 1 of the Treaty of Versailles the original member's of the Leagufe of 
Nations are those signatories whose namqs atfe given, in the Annexe attd 
para. 2 of that Article provides that thereafter that ;s after the Treaty, &ny 
fully self-govern 1 "!!*? State, Dominion or Colony could become a 'member 
of the League of Nations subject to certain conditions with which I need 
H6t trouble you. Now a glance at the Annexe will show this House that of 



LEADER OF THE INDIAN DELEGATION TO Tlltf LEAGUE OF NATIONS. 121 

all the original members India is the only member which is not a self- 
governing State, so that, but for the fact that India as a signatory to the 
Treaty became- an original member, she could nob have now become a mem- 
ber of the League of Nations, that is to say, not being a fully self-governing 
State she is not qualified to be a member, 

Now Article 3 of the League of Nations provides : 
41 The Assembly shall consist of representatives of the members of the League. " 

What is meant by " representative' 1 ? How is this representative of a mem- 
ber of the League to be chosen ? I would ask the House in the first place 
to consider the case of self-governing States. Let us take for example 
England or France. How is their representative to be chosen? Now I 
think it is obvious that the representative of a self-governing State must 
be one who represents the Government for the time being in power in that 
State. If a Conservative Government is in power, the representative must 
be a member of that Government, or someone chosen by that Government. 
Similarly, if a Liberal Government was in power, or a Labour Government 
was in power, the representative must be a representative of that Govern- 
ment. I do not suggest for a moment that there is any legal difficulty in 
the Government for the time being electing someone, for instance, who 
is in opposition to that Government. I am taking an extreme case. There 
is no legal difficulty in the way of doing that, but the practical difficulties, 
which I think the House is sure to appreciate, arc enormous, because the 
Government arc responsible for their policy to the Legislature, and if thoy 
are represented in the League of Nations by someone who is not prepared 
to carry out their instructions as to the policy to be pursued or the action 
to be taken, it will be difficult to hold the Government responsible for what 
their delegate docs in the Assembly. 

I am now only dealing with the case of self-governing States. I will 
come to the position of India presently, but so far as the self-governing 
States are concerned, the point that I would like to make is that the re 
presentative must be the representative of the Government. 

The next point to consider is who is to appoint that representative, and 
I think it will be found that that representative has been and must always 
be appointed by the executive government. In a self-governing State 
the election of the representative by the Legislature, or the election of a 
panel by the Legislature, from which the executive government is to choose 
its representative would be an encroachment on the executive. The. 
Legislature exercises its influence when a particular policy is pursued by 
'the representative on the instructions of the executive government, and 
if the Legislature think that tbe policy which is pursued is not a correct 
policy they can exercise their influence on the executive government. But 
the point I would ask the House to bear in mind is that the representative 
in all self-governing States represents the Government for the time being 
in power, and he is appointed by the executive government and must be 
appointed by the executive government, for after all the executive govern- 
ment is responsible to the Legislature and you cannot hold it to its res- 
ponsibility if the appointment of its representative is to be interfered with 
r by the Legislature. 

That then is the position- in self-governing States. Now let us come to 
India. India is not self -governing. The Indian Government, is not res- 
ponsible, as I shall show presently, to fche Legislature or to the people. 



COUNCIL OF STATE. [1?TH FEB. 1926L 

[Mr. S. E. Das.J 

Its responsibility is to Parliament. Now sub -section (2) of section 2 ofi 
the Government of India Act enacts : 

" The Secretary of State may, subject to the provisions of this Act, superintend, direct 
and control all acts, operations and concerns which relate to the government or 
revenues of India." 

And section 33 further enacts : 

" Subject to the provisions of this Act and rules made thereunder, the superinten- 
dence, direction and control of the civil and military government of India is vested im 
the Governor General in Council who is required to pay due obedience to all such 
orders as he may receive from the Secretary of State." 

Then section 05 and the following sections, which I need not read but 
with which the House must be quite familiar, give the powers of the 
Legislature. Therefore, under the Government of India Act it is clear that 
the responsibility of the Government of India vests in the Governor General 
in Council, subject to the control of the Secretary of State, and subject to- 
such control by the Legislature as is conferred on the Legislature by the 
Act itself. That is the constitutional position, therefore, so far as India is- 
concerned. 

Now, who is to appoint the representative? We may all deprecate the 
position that India is not self-governing, that the Governor General in 
Council is not responsible to the people but to Parliament. We may all 
deprecate that position, but until that is changed, and while the constitution, 
remains as it is, I submit to this House that we can only consider the- 
question of the appointment of the representative of the Government of 
India from the point of view of the present constitutional position of India. 
From that standpoint, and as I have submitted we can only consider that 
standpoint, from the point of view of Government, the representative of 
the Government of India must be someone on whom the Government can 
rely to carry out its instructions at the meetings of the Assembly. It must 
be someone on whom the Government can rely, because just consider for 
a moment what the position would be, and look at the practical difficulties in 
the way. If the Government of India were to send as its delegate someone 
who has been elected, say, by the Legislature or by the country, or from a 
panel which has been elected by the Legislature, the Government of India 
cannot discharge its responsibility if the delegate who has been elected by 
the Legislature chooses to pursue a policy in the Assembly which is contrary 
to the views of the Government of India. So far as the present constitu- 
tion goes, it is the Governor General in Council who is responsible to the 
Secretary of State and to Parliament, and therefore if you thrust on the 
Government of India a person on whom the Government cannot rely, or 
whose views are not the same as those of the Government, the Government 
of India cannot possibly discharge the responsibility which is put on it by 
the constitution, which the present constitution of India, however much 
we may deprecate it, vests in that Government. 

Just as in the cose of a self-governing State the responsibility is in the 

executive government and the executive government must 

12 NOON. a pp O i n t it g delegate, so here, also the executive government must 

appoint its delegate, for the time being at any rate, if I may use the same 

words that I did with regard to the self-governing State, for the time being 

it is the Governor General in Council who is responsible. Now an election 

by the Legislature of a self-g6vernine; State would not give rise to so many 

practical difficulties, or rather I should say, may not give rise to the practical 



LEADEH OF THE INDIAN DELEGATION TO THE LEAGUE OF NATIONS. 123'' 

difficulties that arise in the case of India, if the procedure suggested by the; 
amendment were followed, because, after all, in a self-governing State the - 
majority of the Legislature at any rate is more or less of the same view as 
that of the executive government. It is the majority of the Legislature 
which keeps the executive government in power, and therefore in a self- 
governing State, if the majority of the Legislature were to elect a panel or- 
elect a representative, there would not be the same practical difficulty, if- 
Ihe executive government were to accept that, as there would be in the 
case of India, where, as I have pointed out, the Government is not, by its 
constitution, responsible to the Legislature, and where, from the very nature 
of things, the Legislature may elect persons or a panel whose views may 
be directly opposed to those of the Government on a particular question, 
which arises in the Assembly. Therefore, by reason of the anomalous 
position of India, if I may put it that way, by reason of its present consti- 
tution, the practical difficulties of carrying out the proposal made in the- 
amendment are enormous, and I am certain, if the Honourable Members 
will consider it from that point of view, they will find it is difficult for the 
Government to accept the proposal made by the Honourable Member in* 
the amendment. Under these circumstances the Government arc bound 
to oppose the amendment and I trust the House will see that the amend- 
ment cannot be given effect to and will reject it. 

With regard to the original Resolution proposed by the Honourable 
Mr. Sethna, 1 am rather in a difficult position. , All that 1 can say to him 
is that, since lie moved that Resolution in, I believe, March 1924, the 
Government have been giving very serious consideration to it, and I am 
afraid I am not in a position to-day to make any definite statement as to- 
what the Government propose to do with reference to that Resolution, 
but the Government hope, this year at any rate, to be able to make am 
announcement before very long as to how far Government can give effects, 
to the proposal at the next session of the Assembly. I can only repeat 
what my predecessor said on the last occasion in March, 1924, that the 
Government recognise the wish, have the fullest sympathy with the motion, 
and, subject to what I have said as regards the constitutional position, they 
have every sympathy with the motion; and though I am not in a position* 
now to accept the motion because, as I have said, it is still under very 
serious consideration and no definite decision has been arrived at, we do 
not propose, from the point of view of the Government, to oppose that- 
Resolution. 

THE HONOURABLE MR. P. C. DESIKA CHARI (Burma: General): Sir,, 
at first I thought there would be no difficulty on the part of the Govern- 
ment to accept the Resolution. It is a very modest request, and in view 
of the attitude taken by the Government on previous occasions, I thought 
there would be little or no difficulty in accepting the original Resolution as 
it stood. I can understand some objection being taken to the amendment 
because the amendment tries to bring in the elected principle and we are 
all aware that these delegations are delegations of the Governments and are 
responsible to the Governments of the various States. That is the position 
that the Honourable the Law Member wants us to face before asking the- 
Government to accept either the original Resolution or the amendment. 
I tried to follow closely the arguments that were advanced by the Honour- 
able the Law Member, but I thought he gave us very cogent reasons for 
accepting the Besolution rather than for rejecting it. To me it appeared 
as though all the facts which he adduced in support of his conclusions are 



124 -COUNCIL OV STATK. . 17THFI. 1926. 



[Mr. 1>. C. Desika Chari.J 

the very things, on which we can rely for .asking the House to accept the 
licsolution. First he said it is a matter for congratulation that India was 
admitted as an original 1 member of the League . of Nations. Perhaps he 
meant that if India had "waited and applied for membership later the tests 
of responsible government, the tests of individuality, the tests of full nation- 
hood might have been applied to the case of India and India might not have 
come, into the League of Nations at all. India is a member of the League 
of Nations and the membership implies that she has got a status equal to 
that of any other member of the League of Nations so far as the Assembly 
goes, though she is,n6t on the same footing as regards the Council of the 
League of Nations, which is the ^executive body. I bring in this merely .for 
the purpose of showing that there is not much achieved by merely getting 
into the League of Nations on the same footing and with equal status with 
other members. It is necessary further that the Delegation representing 
India should be regarded as an Indian Delegation, as a Delegation apart 
from that of Great Britain. It must have a national character so that 
full weight and full consideration may be given to the voice of this Delega- 
tion which places the views of India before the Assembly. Unless this 
national character is emphasised, and unless steps are taken to make the 
world understand that the Delegation proceeding from India is an Indian 
Delegation which has got views of its own apart from and distinct from 
the views of Great Britain, 'this Delegation is not likely to command any 
respect. Tt will be regarded merely as playing the second fiddle, as a 
second vote taken by Great Britain in the name of India. The Honourable 
Mr. ItamndnH read out to you a passage which would show that the Indian 
Delegation is looked nt askance by some members of the League of Nations. 
I do not think we need take that as gospel truth, but it shows there may 
be parties who may be interested in belittling the character of the Indian 
Delegation and in showing before the other people who are members of the 
League that the words of this Delegation are not entitled to any weight. 
They may say these are merely echoing the sentiments expressed by the 
Britisli Delegation; these are merely repeating what they have been asked 
to say. It is necessary to make the Assembly understand that the Delega- 
tion is really Indian in order that the Indian Delegation can have its proper 
place, in order to enable it to fight for all the privileges which my friend, 
the Honourable Mr. Sethna, referred to, in bringing down the share of 
India's contribution, in acquiring further rights consistently with the dignity 
which India occupies among the nations of the world. Unless the national 
character of the Delegation is emphasised in some way or other, it is not 
possible for India to take her proper place among the nations of the world. 
India is not likely to be heard to say that she ought to be given a prominent 
place, as suggested by my Honourable friend Mr. Sethna. Unless some 
method is adopted, unless it is shown to the world that this Delegation 
really represents India, it is not a Delegation of merely the British adminis- 
tration, which is carrying on the administration of India with a sort of semi- 
responsibility to the Legislature, unless this aspect of the case is emphasis- 
ed, it is not possible for the Indian Delegation to command the respect 
which it ought to command if this Delegation is to serve any very Useful 
purposes at all, and it is this aspect of the matter that I wanted to bring 
prominently forward before this Council. 

As regards the objections which have been raised, I find they are all 
purely technical and from a "legal point of view... From a bare construction 



'dK THK INDIAN riELKOATlOX TO TlfK LKA(ilK OK NATIONS. '\%' } 

of the Government of India Act and the Constitution which we find in the 
Oovejsnment" of India 'Aet itself, the Honourable the La\v Member may be 
tyUite correct, but it itf -not this- afcpect that is sought to be emphasise^ 
wte^i :thU^IRc6oliitioA has bem ^fcrought forward-. No doiibi there arc 
difficulties. We take note of the fact that the -executive government alone 
J4 'entitled to appoint the members 6f this Delegation. This Resolution 
<kJS; not want to alter that.' W6 merely ask let it not bo u Delegation of 
ii :Go.vcrnm<mt, frhich i well i known to be not responsible to the Legislu- 
Hire; -fr Government whibh doefc riot reflect in' air its aspects the national, 
Tiie" todia'iv character, "which* some Government fully responsible to tho 
.frfogiahfturG^ W5oul(t- ttiako it oiltl In the cnse of otluV ^uenibers of ' the 
ileaue; nb doubt thoft 1 1& this jH'mciple that these Delegations 1 ar^ DHc - 
^Utifcns of -the (itoviirnrwent? concerned : and they are 1 only responsible to, the 
7dvJrtt.i?nt4\t, 'but^tbati'at-titudv ^rinnot- y very well be takeii if bhe '&ispU ; ioti 
referred to by previous speakers is to be removed at all. \Vc must make 
i( 'clear that though the Government '-are not fully responsible to the Legi- 
1fttin>, all the same Hie people Imve been taken into confidr'nee, the re- 
presentatives of tlie people have been taken into confidence, and the 'Dele- 
gation, though acnt- out by a Government not responsible to the Legislature, 
is really a national Delegation, beeaaisc it has -got -the : approval lA' tTie re- 
presentatives of the people who meet in conclave in the Council of State 
. r md> the Le^slaAiye, Assembly.:- I take it that there may be softie difficulties 
ifl-thc: <3o,vemni<?iit dojiiot Lsee :oy.r, to eye with the reprefeontative who' is 
sent out. I can very well understand the- difficulty which the Government 
will baput to if in essential matters .the Delegation takes a line of attitude 
which the Government may not fully approve. And it is for that purpose 
if the Government fully -represent tho Indian view point, if the Government 
lake care to select a representative who would be suitable, who would be 
approved not only by the Government but also by the people I daresay 
there arc many whq ,ean satisfy this- t-est ^it may be possible not to conflict 
with the. ] principle of Govcrpmtu)t appointing representatives and at the 
stimc timo the representatives , who ,are, sent ,out iuay T have a national 
character to impress in th.e, Assembly If .tltis is done, the words of -the 
.pelej^a^ion^will , cort&inUf be ,cnbitled i( |iO greater weight 'and : they ' wiH 'have 
jb^eir; propec pjacc a^nongj.tl^e ptiiev, del^gatq^ whp- me^ iii .the .Assembly, 
anii perhaps, there would not ha.v& bee^.yery much difficulty in getting into 
the Council, of the, .League of Xafcioiu^aB. t ho. fifth largest contributor of tho 
funds necessary for. carrying on th_e vwork of/ the .^eaguo. -As 1 regards the 
otlxer reasons .Adduced Against, tj^is ^c^qlution,. I will, only say, this, that in 
tliOrcase, of Governiue.uts, Y ll f9^ -W Y ^ : ^ ' P^> T U^os,, \vUere thc^Gpvern 
merit rpprc^ents tji^q ,ni^joritjj t 'pflHy in tl)C.,L^gis 1 lAtupD, their .there ought to 
l)p.no diftecult.v.. If ,#: ^re^^ta^iye 'is. fient, h.e. happens rtn b^v^ the same 
views, as. that r of , the (JoyerinneTit.^. 1^ an^y pjjl^r r casp , raii^ong tUe, nuembers 
of. the League. o^Xaliic^s^ej'^p'^bi fln^ aiiy, 4W^f Vj,Uy at.ajl in; tlie, ^patter 
(if selection by /the ^ 6oyeh^iiiient. . , f tjb, is on]y\ ty. solitary ia^tancic, wb^re ;a 
nation which, }iag tivp fittaine^'tp^is lujl.natjo^hppd^ or whjch ig not, {dieted 
to attain tp its fiilL natlbnlibod ^wine iS varjbus causes of .which' we are, all 

i' -r - i,-* .f^.r.T t'' r T/rr n f^^jp i ^"mi^ri'"i^ n!iii"w r "YM ( L| I a""-^ T *'("!* *" w- 1 *r I'M i mtriji^ ," 

Aware, W is tlVjs^cjTitary l mst^nci^ 6f:a me^per^of. .the league pjf llatib^R 

H'Vii/^Vi '-rV*V/i/cs fan'A 1 ^<i1 Wrr4-r>'A^ 'X'-J "T^Lrt i rt'' TVI* "" ''i^/sAVi llrtJ [' </-vpiii-i,/N l " ' - T4-' i' v^ L^^n^M^. 



COUNCIL OF STATE. [1?TO FEB. 1926. 



[Mr. P. C. Desikft Chari.] 

After all, the Government are given the last word in the matter, and we 
may trust the Legislatures to select a panel of persons of whom some at 
least would be acceptable to the Government, and the Government have 
got the last word in the matter. They can by appointing those delegates 
and by giving them necessary instructions how to act that is the most 
important thing they may see that the person who is leading the deputa- 
tion does not act contrary to the instructions given by the Government, 
while at the same time taking care not to make it appear to the Assembly 
that this Delegation is merely a Delegation which is asked to repeat 
parrot-like the British view point, but a Delegation that can also take an 
independent line of action of its own. I have therefore great pleasure in 
supporting the original Resolution as it stands, because I find it is expedient 
and prudent to do so, because half a loaf is better than no bread, and il is 
better that something at least is done in this direction to see that the Dele- 
gation has the national character. It will be of some purpose and the 
Delegation may do some good work and may tiiake itself felt and create 
an impression on the other members of the League of Nations 

THE HONOURABLE SIR BIJAY OHAND MAHTAB, MAHAUAJADHIIIAJA 
BAHADUR OF BURDWAN (Bengal : Nominated Non-Official) : Sir, before u 
nation becomes a self-governing State, if a compliment is paid to it by Gov- 
ernment in allowing it to send delegates to the League of Nations, naturally 
that Government gets tied in a knot such as the Government of India 
have got into at the present moment by sending delegates from India KJ 
the League of Nations. I do not propose here to criticise the present posi- 
tion. What, however, 1 am concerned with is not only the Resolution 
movod with such clarity by the Honourable Mr. Sethna, with which T may 
say at once I have the fullest sympathy, but also the amendment to that 
Resolution moved by Mr. Ram ad as Pantulu. Sir, I would not like to give 
H silent vote against the amendment of Mr. Ram ad as Pantulu. I am very 
grateful to the Honourable the Law Member for giving such a clear state- 
ment as to the present position of the Government of India as well as the 
constitutional position of a self-governing State. I think the Indian Legis- 
latures are very often and very naturally inclined to overrate their own 
importance, forgetting, at the same time, the constitutional position. 
Whether the present constitutional position is to be entirely regretted is 
a matter T leave to others. What I feel is this that, if India aspires to be 
a self-governing State, it is making a great mistake in trying to inflicM, 
undue importance of the Legislatures over the Executive even if the Exe- 
cutive to-day were a Swaraj Executive. In these matters, as the Honour- 
able the Law Member has pointed out, the Cabinet or the Executive 
Government must have unfettered discretion. It is quite true that in a 
self-governing State the majority of the members of the Legislature or tlie* 
Parliament, as the case may be, would no doubt sway the Executive or the- 
Cabinet of the day in their decisions. But I do not think that even in a 
self-governing State any Legislature would consider such a panel necessary. 
It is because the constitutional position in India is not fully realised that 
this idea gains ground. I am glad that Mr. Eamadas Pantulu, however, has 
been liberal enough in suggesting that these six members would not neces- 
sarily belong to the two bodies of the Legislature. But I would certainly 
deprecate, and deprecate strongly, if these two bodies became a mutual 
admiration society. But the real point to-day is Mr. Sethna 's Resolution 



JJ3ADJBR OF THE INDIAN DELEGATION TO THE LEAGUE OF NATIONS. J2? 

and I should Uke to ask the Honourable the Law Member troiu what he 
said whether he did convey or not that, whilst the Government of India 
were not in a position to accent the Honourable Mr. Sethna's Resolution, 
he was not going to oppose it. 

THE HONOURABLE MR. S. B. DAS : That is so. 

THE HONOURABLE SIR BIJAY OHAND AlAHTAB, MAIIARAJADIHUAJA 
BAHADUR OF BURDWAN : That being so, I beg to support Mr. Sethnii't* 
Resolution. 

THE HONOURABLE COLONEL NAWAB SIR UMAli HAYAT KHAN (Punjab : 
Nominated Non-Official) : Sir, I think the Law Member has taken the 
wind out of the sails of the amendment from the legal point of view. As to 
the Resolution I would like to put before the House that when we call India 
a unit, it does not mean British India only but also the territories of Hilling 
Chiefs. I think to a very large extent the present Resolution has been 
rnet in a way by the Government because they have sent during the last 
few years as India's representatives able and picked Maharajas. Tiui 
Maharaja who represented India last time lias since been rimse.n as :i 
Chancellor of all the Maharajas. 

THE HONOURABLE MR. PHIKOZE (\ SKTHXA : Not of the League of 
Nations. 

THE HONOURABLE COLONEL NAWAB SIR I'M AH HAYAT KHAN : At any 
rate, the Iluliiig Chiefs must also he considered as the representatives <! 
India. I think the real representative of India is one who is able to help 
the State and materially help the country from foreign encroachment or to 
make it more able to support its cause and not the one who by misleading 
the voters becomes a representative Now, Sir, if we were to see nomi- 
nations 11 nd elections, I can say that India's representatives hitherto have 
done some substantial service to the Government and that the Govern- 
ment have chosen better representatives than some of the, representatives 
of the people. This question has also to be taken into consideration. I 
personally think that whoever have been chosen hitherto by the Govern- 
ment and sent under the circumstances were the best representatives. 
If, for instance, Government were to choose the Nizam of Hyderabad, he is 
the ruler of n country just as big as Germany or France, or any of these 
members, taking the territory, etc., into consideration, and the same is the 
case with those who have been chosen by the Government. If you were 
to sec their State forces who went to fight the battles of the Empire as well 
as those of India, I think there is no one who can claim that he has helped 
India more than those. That way too I think the representatives chosen by 
the Government were the best representatives. If election were resorted 
to, as far as I have seen in theso days, any man who is able to block or try 
to block the present machinery of government is considered to bo the best 
representative, so the danger is that such a man will be the Jirst to be 
elected and the last to be .representative. So long as India does not become 
H nation in the true sense you cannot call the representatives representatives 
of the nation. I have said this many times that India consists of various 
religions, various creeds, and perhaps there is one section absolutely against 
the other, and perhaps also one nationality in a province or in a smaller 
Dortion of a province is dead against the other; so that if that was considered 
T do not know who would claim to bo representatives of the nation. There 

B 2 



128 COUNCIL OF t.*t. -17-to Fu. 1926. 



[Colonel Nitwab S 4 r Umar Hayat Khan,]- 

would have to be u good many battles, between the pftiViiiGes and the 
provinces and various religions, etc.; before one gets predominant so as to 
call himself a representative. I think a nation which is u third party, 
which has come from outside and. controls 'all the various small nations ol 
India and tries to keep them together, is, I think, up to the present time 
the best authority to represent this continent. I think in one way all that 
Mr. Setlina has asked has practically been acted upon and as lo the 
amendment, as I have pointed out, it is practically impossible now "ft 
t hings stand because the elected representative will ' not be a proper 
representative of India: at all.. I think the House for the present ought to 
J'tfjecfc both the amendment and the ^Resolution because -it is premature: - 
THE HONOURABLE Mn. K. C. BOY (Befcgal: Nominated Non-Official) : 
Sir; the House is indebted to the Honourable Mr. S.'B. Das, for the lucid 
exposition of the constitutional position of the Government, and I think 
I arn convinced by his arguments. At the same time I wish to point out 
that the Delegations in recent years have given little or no satisfaction. 
I will only recall the Delegation for last year whose report was before us 
only a few days ago. It was headed by tho .Right Honourable Viscount. 
\Villingdon, ('^-Governor of Madras, possessing very little experience of the 
Central Government and of Northern India ; then we had His Highness 
the Maharaja of Patiala as second representative. He represents a small 
State of mediaeval autocracy. Lastly, we had Sir Atul Chandra Chatterjec, 
a distinguished member of the Indian Civil Service, who recently retired 
from the Viceroy's Executive Council to take his place as High Commis- 
sioner for India in London. He really and truly represented the people of 
India. But, Sir, what are the functions which these gentlemen are called 
upon to perform? They were 'asked to discuss the reduction of armaments, 
ihe pacific settlement of international disputes, they were invited to 
consider the protection and welfare of children and young people, the protec- 
tion of minorities, mandates, collaboration of the Press in the organisation 
of peace, and RO on. What this House has to consider is whether these 
gentlemen discharged their duties thoroughly. In my opinion future Dele- 
gations should be such as would contain a sitting member of the Viceroy's 
Executive Council, a Prince of some eminence and a 'representative of the 
Central Legislature with substitute members from our Legislatures. 

.. Compare our last years Delegation with tho Delegation of Canada. 
Canada was represented by the Honourable Raoul Danduraud. Senator, 
Member of the King's Privy Coupcil for Canada, Minister of State, 
representative of the Government in the Senate. I don't think we had 
number of this House in the. hist delegation. The next was the. Honour- 
able Hewitt Bostock, Senator, Speaker of the Senate, Member of the 
King's Privy Council for Canada, Even the Government of India bad 
not the Courtesy to .ask. you, Sir, .to go to Geneva on our behalf. And 
the last name is more important, the Honourable Philippe Roy. former 
Senafor./Com^swonelr^eilieral in France. And the substitutes are equally 
im^rtant; Mr. Walter Eiddell, Dominion of Canada AdvisoVy Officer accre- 
dited io tho' League of Nations, M. Joan Desy, Member of the Canadian 
Bar; Professor at tho University of ' Montreal. Professor "agree" at the 
Sorboime, Counsellor to the Mmi&try 1 fto ; Foreign Affairs. Compare thefr 
Delegation witli burg. J Why do riot we folloW the Canadian example "A 
tar as possible ? ' . - - , . i , . . 



LEAUKH T)F THE INDIAN DELEGATION TO THE LEAGUE OF NATIONS. 1,29 

I shall not, Sir, furthur pursue this point. I will refer you to the amend- 
ment. of my Honourable friend Mr. liamadas. He wants a panel of- six 
persons to be elected by both Chambers of the. Central Legislature, from 
which the Government are to choose their representatives. But ho himself ha& 
answered the- quest ion, and I need not pursue it further than .to quote his 
own dictum. He talked of policy. The policy must be the policy of the 
Government of -India And in. fact in regard to the question of the . reduction 
of i annum (tilts it must bo the- policy laid down by His Majesty's Govern- 
ment. If ,Mr. Ramadas is one of the panel of six who is chosen to 
represent India, will he carry out the mandates of the Government of India 
or of His Majesty's. Government? The position is one of constitutional 
importance. ; I- therefore! oppose his amendment. . " .- , . ,,~ 

. 1 iuwy eome to Mr. Sethna'g Resolution, a&d.J feel inclined to oppose 
it also, beuauso though my heart is with Mr. Sethna my head is with the 
Government. There is a very knotty point ktipt in the background by Mr. 
4olhna si* w.ell as. by, UKJ Honourable the Law Member, and thut is the 
position- of .the Indian -Prince ifi -the Delegation.-. That is the only thorn 
in tin* way.- 1 can assure the. Members of this House that the leadership 
of- I ncl i an Princes of India's 'Delegation will never be jiccepted by the 
people of. India. Jf we support tho leadership of uu Indian Prince we shall 
be stamping the seal of the approval of this House to the continuance of 
mediaeval autocrurx \\liicli exists in r.ttrtiun parts of India. 

THK Hoxorn.viiLi.: R\o BAIIIK Du. U. KAMA UAO (Madras: Xoii- 
MijJiammadan) : Sir, Ihe Law Member lias explained to us the oonstitu- 
ional position* that, is- to. say, that we Indians having no fie If -government 
art; -not in a position to send representatives to tJio League -of Nations. Such 
being the case -what is the object, what is 1ht gain bv joining the League of 
Nations? ... 

THK HoxouiuniJi TIIK PRESIDENT: The Honourable: Member is per- 
haps misunderstanding tho Resolution^ ' Thore- is no ([iiestloii of whether 
India should or should -not be a member of the League of Nations. That 
question is not before us. 



TIIK H^voLutAJiLK.ltAg SAIIIII pit. U. HAM A BAG : The Law Member 
said thai, as we have no self -government, we could not send our represcnta-. 
fives to the League of Nations. Such being the case, is it necessary for 
us to talce part in the deliberations of tho League 'of Nations? We arc 
paying a large sum of money, namely 8 lakhs of rupees. Apart from that 
there- ifl no advantage gained by oiir taking part in the deliberations of the 
League of Nations. - There is no question of tho Assembly of tho Loaguo 
of Natrons giving us any extra position in the League of Nations. 



HoNouRfBLK TIII; PKKSID1?NT: I urn afraid I- fail to follow the 
ablu Member. 'a- argument. . Am 1 to understand, that he is opposing 
both the. Resolution and the amendment? . Thero is no question of . whether 
India should ..or shoulcL. not remain a member of the League of Nations. 
What the Honourable Member is apparently . arguing is Hint. India should 
not send any delegation ut all. . 

THE HOKOUKAULE RAO SAHIB DR. IT." 1 KAMA 11AO : I say that India must 
be^Gpresenied -by a reprefjenfcaitiTe of the people, by a Sfcmbo.r of the Central 
Legislature. If we are tfot in" a position to do this there is no use of India 
taking part in the League of ''Nations. 



130 COUNCIL OF STATE. [17'llf FflB. 1926. 

[Dr. U. Kama Rao.] 

Either we must have the Honourable Mr. Ramadas's motion carried, 
(>r if you are unable to carry that, the best thing is not to take part in the 
delegation at all. Then, Sir, Mr. Sethna has said in his Resolution that 
the Governor General should appoint an Indian of suitable rank to be a 
lender of the Delegation representing India. How could a man who is 
not a representative of both the Central Legislatures be in a position to 
re-present India? His representation will not have any value or strength 
in the country. Such being the case, 1 am strongly of opinion that we 
must support the amendment moved by Mr. Ramadas. 

TUB HOXOURAIILK Mu. PHIROZE G. SETHNA: Sir, two days ago was 
the first non-official day of the Council. The Leader of the House congratu 
lated the Council that its first non-official Resolution should have been 
nn so important a subject HS agriculture. May we, the non-official 
Members, be allowed to congratulate the Leader, and through the Leader. 
Iho Government, for having accepted the first non-official Resolution, >and' 
I trust that similarly during the life of this Council the percentage- of 
non-official Resolutions which will be accepted by Government will be a 
far larger one than was the case in the life of the last Council. I am 
glad, to judge from the remarks of the Honourable the Law Member, that, 
whilst he will not accept my Resolution, he will have no objection to my 
Resolution being passed. Thai is exactly I taka it the reply he gave in 
answer to the Honourable the Maharaja of Burdwan. 

I think. Sir, the Honourable the Law Member has reason to thank 
my friend Mr. Ramadas for his amendment, for the reason that the greatei 
portion, may I say 9-10ths of his reply, was devoted to the amendmenl 
and only one-tenth to my Resolution. I think he devoted only a few 
sentences to my Resolution because in his heart of hearts he must admit 
that Government have not carried out the assurance that w.as given to this 
House two years ago and are therefore to blame. But what pleases me 
most, and I am sure it will please this House also, is the concluding 
remark in his speech that he hopes that Government will very soon make 
a pronouncement which he thinks will prove satisfactory to the Council. 
We my take, that to be a very satisfactory answer to the Resolution 
which I have had the honour to bring forward to-day. 

The Honourable Mr. Das has given very cogent reasons for not allow- 
ing the amendment io be passed. 1 would only like to add one more. 
My friend Mi-. Ramadas's amendment gives very little scope to Govern- 
ment for the selection of suitable men; it practically gives them no selection, 
because it is ten to one that the men chosen for the panel might not 
be persons who would bo in agreement with the views of Government, 
and as the Honourable Mr. Das has pointed out, it is absolutely useless 
(o send a man whose views do not coincide with those of Government. 
On the other hand, no self-respecting delegate would undertake to 
on behalf of the Government of India if he was forced to carry out views 
which were not his own. For that rea-son too I oppose the amendment. 
But another reason is that human nature is what it is, and if wo have a 
panel of six. in spite of what fell from my. friend Mr. Ramadas, it is 
quite 1 ike.lv that all the six would be Indians, and I for one do suggest 
find would' insist that at least during the t- nsition period there must bo 
a Britisher on the delegation. For this reason as well, I oppose the 
amendment. 



CEADEK OF TIIK INDIAN DELEGATION TO THE LEAGUE OF NATIONS. '131 

In regard to what fell from the Honourable Mr. Das and to which 
reference WHS made by Dr. Rama Rao, did 1 understand the Honourable 
tlie Law Member to say that India is there as a member of the League 
of Nations only by accident? 

THE HONOURABLE Mn. S. II. DAS: Because we were one of the original 
signatories, not by accident. 

THE HONOCRABLK Mu. PHIROZE C. SETHNA: Yes, the accident of 
being an original member. Do 1 understand thai if we were not amongst 
the original members, we would not be included now? 

THE HONOURADLU Mi{. S. R. DAS: We would not be elected to-day 
because it is only a self-governing colony which is entitled to join. 

TIIK HOXOI-RABLK MH. PHIROZE C. SETHNA: My answer then is 
that because we contribute 8 lakhs a year surely some means would have 
been devised to bring us in so that the League of Nations did not lose 
these H lakhs. However thai is beside the point. 

[n conclusion, 1 would once again thank the Honourable the Law 
Member, for no matter how briefly he has replied to my Resolution, he 
has informed us that a pronouncement is to be made very soon, and I do 
trust that this House will be satisfied with the pronouncement which is 
to be made. But, Sir, T would like this motion to bo put to the vote 
in order that Government ma\ know what is the wish of fne non-official 
Members and consequently the chosen representatives of the people. 

THE HONOURABLE MR. S. R. DAS : In ordertto avoid any future misunder- 
standing T should like to make one matter quite clear. I said in my 
speech that we hope to be able shortly to make a final decision on The 
subject-mat I or of this Resolution and to announce it. T should not like 
the House to understand that that is a definite promise on my part to 
make the announcement very shortly. We hope to be able to do so 
before very long. 

THE HONOURABLE MR. PHIROZE C. SETHNA: At any rate, Sir, it 
will be before the members of the next Delegation arc chosen? 

THK HONOURABLE MR. S. R. DAS: Oh, certainly. 
THE HONOURABLE THK PRESIDENT: The original question wns : 
" That the following Resolution be adopted : 

1 Tin's Council recommends to the Governor General in Council to appoint an 
Indian of suitable rank and qualifications to be the leader of the Delega- 
tion representing India at the next session of the Assembly of the 
League of Nations '." 

'To which -ail amendment was moved : 

" That for the original Resolution the following be substituted : 

' This Council recommends to the Governor General in Council that the leader 
and other members of the Delegation representing Tndia at the next session 
of the Assembly of the League of Nations be appointed from out of a 
panel of six persons to be elected by both Chambers of the Central Legisla- 
ture '." ' 

The question I liave to put is that these words be substituted for the 
original Resolution. 

(A division was claimed by the Honourable Mr. V. Ramadas Pantulu 
and taken by Members rising in their places.) 



COUNCIL OF STATE, [1?TH Jm. 1926- 

\. ' 

ff I;II THK HfitfontAitLK THK PRESIDENT : The Ayes are and the Noes 84:. 
ir1ic\.XocKTtli<3refora h^vo it. 



The amendment was negatived. "-, 

Tim HoNoiKAitLL TIIK PRESIDENT, : The question is: 

That the following Resolutio i he adopted : 

'This Council recommends to the Go vernof General in Council to appoint an 
Indian of suitable rank and qualifications to be the I ader of the delegation 1 
representing India at the next session of the Assembly of . the League of 
Nations '." 

The inofion was adopted. 



HFiSOLUTlON RE FORMATION OK A SEPARATE KANNADA 

PROVINCE. 

- THE HoNouiAm.E H.vo SAHIB Dn. IT. RAMA RAO (Madras: Non-Muham- 
luadaji) : Sir, I bog to move the following Resolution which stands in my 
name 

' Tliis Council recommends to the Governor General in Council that a Committee or 
officials and non-offirials he forthwith appointed to inquire into, and suggest wayvs 
and means for. the formation of a separate Kami a da Province." 

Sir, this/ Resolution aims at the lo~ng- wished -for redistribution of Pro- 
vinces in India on a linguistic basis. The proposal is no new one nor has 
it been thing at the (Snvernment all of a sudden to-day as a surprise. In 
fact, it linn been agitating the peoples' minds ever since the inception uf 
the Jndian National Congress. Year in, year out, during the past forty 
years, the Congress has been putting forth its demand for the regrouping 
of Provinces in India based on language before the Indian Government, 
hist before the inauguration of the Reforms, the Honourable Mr. (now 
Sir) B. X. 8arm.ii moved a Resolution in the old Imperial Council, anent 
(he rearrangement of Provinces on a. language basis. 

Sir,, the existing territorial distribution in India is the result partly of 
administrative expediency and partly of historical accident. The history 
of Indian administration under British rule reveals a steady growth in the 
number of Provinces into which the country has been divided. This m- 
urearie was not only due to the gradual expansion of territory acquired by 
the British from time to time, but also to the necessity of effecting suitable 
rearrangements on grounds of administrative expediency. . The growth of 
the Indian Provinces has, therefore, been more or less chronological and 
was not based on the operation of any logical, linguistic or ethnic considera- 
tions. This Acnounts for the arbitrary divisions of the country into pro- 
viuces.and the lietefogenous grouping of districts into each province. For 
instance, the Mahrattas are divided between Bombay, the Central Provinces 
and tW Ni/amV Dominions; the Tclugus between the -Central Provinces, 
the Nizam's Dominions, Mysore State 'and the Madras Presidency ; ..the 
Canarese between "Mysore State, the Madras Presidency, the" Bombay 
Presidency. Coor<r and the NizanVs -pominions; the Uriyas between M&jrae 



FORMATION OF -A -H'EPARATfe KANNADA 1'ROVINCK. 

and Bihar provinces and till recently, the Central Provinces. Such an 
p^rangeruent based <w no principle .whatever clearly indicates that the 
whole, grouping was haphazard, and that neither ideals of administrative 
efficiency nor : those of national upbuilding have ever- exercised the minds 
of the rulers or the ruled. 

: 'Nevferthdlett&v thefe have arisen individual administrators from time U> 
lime who hud the perspicacity to discover the error in the existing terri- 
torial divisions and sketched a correct plan of distribution. Sir John 
Strachev pointed out that "the political limits of ihe Provinces have little- 
connection with any physical characteristics/'. " Sir Thomas Holdernesfc 
observes that : 

" witli the exception of Burma, no province represents a natural unit, that is to 
gay, tlje provinces do not. stand for differences of race or language or geographical 
distribution. They are' purely administrative divisions of territory." 

So far back as 1002, Lord Curzon's fl overrun cut wrote: 

'* The question of territorial and administrative redistribution in India is, indeed, 
in our judgment, one of the most urgent and vital of the many problems for which 
we are at present endeavouring, to find a solution." 

The, Moutagu-Chelmsford lleport on Indian Constitutional Reforms has 
expressed the view that in order that provincial administrations under the 
fie^dispeusatioa -might be efficient mid effective, the provinces should be 
redistributed in sudi u manner that it should be rendered possible even for 
non-English knowing people to take mi active part in the administration of 
their respective provinces by the adoption of the vernacular as the language 
in the Councils. This can bo expected only in administrative units where 
there is one common language and the report consequently urges on the 
speedy redistribution of provinces on r a linguistic basis. Lastly, wo have 
the opinion of Sir Frederick Whyte, who, in his book on India's Re'forme'd 
Constitution, which, is being published by the Government of India, says: 

' Language is an important factor in connection with national unity in India. . The 
various provinces should have t'heir own languages." 

He thinks local patriotism is the foundation of enduring Federalism and 
considers the revival of Bengali very significant. A similar, revival, of 
pfovincial languages in other parts of India shoulcT provide a sound founda- 
tion for pro vincial autonomy. . . 

Sir, I think I have now established u strong case for the redistribution 
of provinces on a language basis and Kairaada must on that ground: be con- 
stituted as, a separate Province. As I haye . already pointed, out, the 
Cauurosc-spt'ukmg people are scattered over the, various provinces of India, 
to wit the Madras Presidency, the , Bombay Presidency the Mysore State, 
the Nixa.ni'* Dominions and Cporg. - The greatest disadvantage of this 
political misfortune has been the alienation avwnp our own people. Kar- 
iiataka lias a glorious historical past, it has., a language rich and variously 
cultjdred ,and developed from different - inspirations -fclie Jains, the Linga- 
y^ts and the Brahmins and it has a culture' of its own -'and- is bound to 
play an important part in the consolidation of the future federated states 
of-jiidija. But, at the same. time, Sir, it requires no great historical insight 
to ; see tHftt .during, the turmoils of political -unrest in ; tlie country before -the 
advent- .of -British rule, she has suffered rnuch-and that-flince the fall of the 
Empire, in: the first quarter of -the 19th- Century, the- ruin of 
i- has, .becij: -complete. - The peace under -British rule -has beeti 



COUNCIL. OF JATAZE. [17T1I FEB. 1926. 

[Dr. U. Kama liao.J 

the peace of the land of Jhe dead. To-day, Sir, owing to the helpless and 
dissipated condition of the Karnataka people, we find our language muti- 
Jated, our culture gone, our traditions, literature and art almost forgotten 1 . 
To ii man from Belgaum, Kannada from the lips of a Mangalorejm sounds 
tjffeminate like the affected voice of a male actor playing the role of a 
female on the stage. The Mysorean retorts that the Bijapur Kannada 'IB 
a, ruthless slaughter of that beautiful language. Government also, though 
they parcelled out the Kannada people in different administrative compart- 
ments, iind that in their educational policy, they want different primary 
text-books in the Bombay Karnataka from those that are in vogue in the 
Cunarese Schools of the Madras Presidency. The Mysoreans again want 
a third set of text-books. And yet all these people represent the same 
culture and must be proud of their own heroes, military, literary, religious 
and others. By mixing together in one chaldron, two or three 
r " M " languages, the administration becomes more expensive and less 
efficient. There are at present, in the whole of the Karnataka, excluding 
Mysore and the, Nizam's Dominions, about 3 colleges and 48 High Schools, 
but the curriculum of studies is different in different provinces and there- 
fore, the unformity in cultural advancement and progress is in no way 
maintained. Further, the Karnataka people sadly suffer from the want of 
a University of their own. Local self-government cannot be developed- 
consistent with the character, civilization, culture, tastes and inclinations 
of the Kamu-ese,- speaking people. There is no scope for the fostering of 
local patriotism. Nor is their voice patiently heard and their grievances 
adequately redressed in the local Legislative Councils, their representatives 
therein being in a hopeless and miserable minority unable to enforce their 
will against the overwhelming odds of other communities and interests. To 
cite a recent instance. Sir, when the Andrah University Bill was rushed 
ihrough in the Madias Legislative Council, the inhabitants of Bellary, who 
are mainly Karnatakas, begged, petitioned, entreated, cajoled, in fact, did 
all that human nature is capable of doing under such circumstances, to see 
iliat Bellary is not included within the fold of the Andrah University. But. 
Sir, their voice had been the voice in the wilderness; so, one fairly goofl 
district of the Karnatakas had been torn from their map and there is every 
likelihood of its being completely Andrahsised, if no separate Karnataka 
province is constituted in the immediate future. The fate of other districts 
in other provinces also is similarly doomed. 

Sir, it has been admitted on all hands that opportunities for self-develop- 
ment, scope for civic discipline, chances for the, cultivation of one's own 
language and literature, and above all conditions for effectual political 
autonomy, could exist only when each language area hns a* scheme of 
administration wholly unto itself. "Recognizing this, Lord Hardinge had 
laid down three cardinal principles which must bo satisfied before any 
scheme of redistribution of provinces on a language basis is undertaken. 
There are (1) that the settlement, of boundaries in order to be satisfactory 
and conclusive should provide convenient administrative units, which are 
nt once furnished by contiguous tracts of country, where the people 
speak a common language, (2) that the settlement should satisfy the 
legitimate aspirations of the people, and (3) tGat the settlement should lie 
clearly based upon broad grounds of political and administrative expediency. 
Let us now apply those principles in the onse of Karnataka. Sir, the 
Karnataka provinrp of the future will consist of 10 districts, the nortliern 



FORMATION OF A SEPARATE KANNADA PROVINCE. 13o 

division consisting of Belgaum, Dharwur, Bijapur, Karwar and Bellary, 
the southern consisting of Anantapur, Hosur, the Nilgiris, .Coorg and South 
Kanara. The total area of the British Karnataka would come to 43,615 
square miles with a population of 8,211,750. Though the area is less 
than that of Assam, Karnataka has a population much larger than that 
of Assam. Geographically also it will form one contiguous tract of country 
providing a convenient administrative unit. The second principle is that it 
should satisfy the legitimate aspirations of the people. Sir, the people of 
Karnataka have been crying themselves hoarse for the formation of a 
separate Karnataka Province for a long time past. The Karnataka people 
with one voice demand it and the Karnataka Press warmly support it. 
The Indian National Congress, on a representation made to it by the 
people of Karnataka, has curved out a separate Congress Karnataka Pro- 
vince, so to say, which is now functioning as a separate and independent 
entity and recently the Congress had its session also held at Belgaum, 
in the newly constituted Congress Karnataka Province. When the late 
Bight Honourable E. S. Montagu was in India, in connection w r ith the 
reform inquiry, the people of Karnataka in the Bombay and Madras Presi- 
dencies and Coorg assembled in public meeting, resolved to present a 
memorial to him regarding the unification of Karnataka. and the memorial 
that was accordingly presented urged that : 

' for the proper realisation of self-government, it is necessary to organise the 
country into a series of self-governing provinces, and principalities federated by one 
Central Government and that in order to make provincial autonomy real and effectual, 
the re-adjustment of provinces on a language basis is absolutely essential." 

Xow, Sir, the second of the conditions is thus fulfilled. Then comes 
the last condition, i.e., political and administrative expediency. As 
matters now stand, we, the Karnatakas, can never exercise in either of 
the Provinces, Madras or Bombay, that influence to which we consider 
ourselves entitled by reason of our numbers, wealth and culture. This 
is a substantial grievance which w r ill be felt all the more keenly i.n course 
of time as the representative character of the Legislative Council increases 
and with it the influence which these Assemblies exercise upon the conduct 
of public affairs. To take again the example of Assam, though it lias a popu- 
lation less than our own, it has a Legislative Council of its own of :i much 
larger representative character, while we, iKarnatakas, have only members 
to represent us in the Bombay Council and 4 in the Madras Council. 
Thus, administrative expediency also calls for the carving out of a separate 
Kannada, Province. Let me add one more principle to be applied here, 
namely, the cost of administration. In my opinion, the cost of general 
administration would be comparatively small, having regard to the small- 
ness of the area and population. Enormous savings may be effected under 
various headings, including travelling allowances. There are already several 
small administrative units in India, such as Ajmer, Merwara and the 
like and Karnataka will be one among that fold. The probable income 
of the would-be British Karnataka would be about 3J millions and with 
the rapid expansion of railways, irrigation facilities, coastal traffic, etc., 
which are woefully neglected at the present day, the income is bound 
to increase and the prosperity and well-being of the Karnatakas assured and' 
placed on a firm basis. 

Before I close, Sir, let me answer one or two possible objections to 
this proposal. It is said that the scheme of redistribution of provinces on 
a language basis is not conducive to national unity, and this would eventually 
lead to disintegration. Sir, the upbuilding of the Indian nation is only 



136 COITKCII, OF STATE.. .. []?TII FEB. 192GL 

[Dr. U. liHinti llao.J 

possible on. a, plan of fccWalion. in which each provincial factor shall occupy 
a sub-national position. To secure this.und, the Provinces should be homo- 
geneous and be devoid of elements .that lead to inequality of progress BO 
that various, subordinate centres" of self -consciousness . may conic into- 
existence around which national life groups itself into distinct units,. We 
have. the mighty, example of the United States of America and the humble 
instance of Switzerland in support of my statement. The Unitecl States 
of America consist of. as main as 48 province* each independent jn itseW. 
The biggest province has an area of 100,000 square miles and tbp smallest, 
namely, Columbia, about 70 square miles. Switzerland with an urea of 
iSjOtfl square miles and \\ith a population of 0,315,848 has got 22 province* 
divided according to linguistic area. Each province is independent of the 
other and is not bigger than e\m two of our tulay*. In our own country, 
we Aull hsivr. at the utmost 19 provinces based on language instead <rf .1:5 
incongruous, irresponsible, units which we have at the present day. 

The next objection is that the redistribution should not precede flu- 
grant of full provincial autonomy. To make it Follow is in m\ opinion 
to place 'the cart before the horse. By tin- time we got provincial autonomy, 
we' musi have ready-made administrative units based on language and 
territorial integrity . Such is tlio scheme of "provincial aulonomy which 
Lord Ho-rdinge had outlined for India. According to his scheme there- 
would come into being separate, small, self -contained and self-reliant 
States, in which no one community could' retard another in its progress. 
It is only 1h\is. Lord Hardingc said, that: 

/'all t|ie nationalities in. India can lir started simultuncuu.sly on the road to self- 
development and ultimate self -government. Tliose. . -wh'icli mhariL-o rapidly would be 
giveA greater fflrilities arid would nccfttsitrily lip -morn inclr-pondont than" thosn thnt 
togged." 

Lord Jlardingo addod : 

. "So greater i'acilities could l>o given to the people of India limn the fostering 
of local jjatviotism l>y tlm i^ns>t ruction of a new map on an ethnological and linguistic 
liasisf and the consequent friendl.v in tor-racial competition for rivili/ed pvogross and 
ultimfttR autonomy. " '- - 



, Now, Sir, uiy .Uesolutiuu merely asks fur I be neci^sary spade work, to 
be done before the advent of full provincial autonomy, which, it is hoped, 
will, come in the near, future, -so thai u ne\\- Kannada Province may bo 
formed at onee and endowed with a separate autanomouR administration: 
Tliis is by no moans an easy task and I have therefore proposed the 
appointment forthwith of a Committee of officials and non-officials to inquire 
into .and suggest, ways and means for the purpose of farming a separate 
Kornafcaka Province. There \vilj be nothing lost, by ihis inquiry; on the 
other bund a good, mass of useful evidence and public opinion will bo 
gathered and made available for -ready use. T now commend this Resolu- 
tion for your kind acceptance. -'.- 



HONOURABLE. MR. V;. BAMADAS PANTULU (Madras: Nonv 
Muhamnmdan) : Sir, T-beg to jqave the follow ing. amendment/: 

" This Council recommends to the Governor General in Council that, wtfli a \iew to 
regrouping of rroyiiices, as lar s possible, on a linguistic '.btfsis, a Commietee mrith 
a n n-fficial majority be appointed to inquire into,, and suggest ,ways and -means for; 
constituting the Kanar^sB,speaking tracts of the provinces of Madras and Bombay 
into;a separate Kannada Province." " * 



FORMATION OF A SEPARATE KAXNADA PROVIXCK. 137 

. Sir, I nru in .substantial agreement with (ho Resolution anil my amend- 
rirent is intended to r criiphasree one- aspect of the question. It is this.- I 
<te8irc thtft the claims of the Kanarese to separate provincial integration 
shptild be (^altrwith as ft part of a comprehensive scheme of reform affecting 
ihg whole country: ' It is well known that with the exception of Burma and 
iwb!pr : tH^e othfer provinces in India no province represents a natural unit, 
arid that most provinces pro artificial aggregations of tracts of country which 
ottte 'their brigiii'td historical accidents or political and administrative 
exigences. On tho one part a single people characterised by V common 
t fa (jifibti L ^culture and language itiV cut up between different administrations 
airil'on " trie other hand as iniiny ns five or six distinct linguistic groups are 
thrown into a single province. The province 1 from which 1 come, Madras, 
is composed of Tamils, Telegus, Keralas, Kanarese and Ooriyas. 

At the same time the Tologu*, Kanarese and Ooriyits are divided between 
J'our different administrations. It cannot be disputed that this arrange- 
ment has very grave defects. Firstly, it is a hindrance to good government 
tfs it cannot produce administrative etliciency. Secondly, it prevents the 
process of the upbuilding of the nation us it destroys the sub-national spirit 
>f the homogeneous groups by rendering them weak, disorganised and 
disunited. The defect in the existing territorial divisions engaged the atten- 
tion of several British administrators and their views are well worth consi- 
deration. Sir John Strachoy, Sir Thomas Holderness, Sir Bampfyldo 
Fuller, Sir George Chesney and Sir Francis Younghusband all pronounced 
themselves in favour of the reform. A very comprehensive survey of the 
question is to bo found in the famous despatch sent by Lord Hardinge's 
(rovcrnmont on the 25th August. 1011. in connection with the reunion of the 
ft Bengal i-spdaking divisions into one province and integrating the Hindi- 
speaking population of Bihar and Chota Nagpur into another. All the 
Arguments- t'hnfT can b& urged in favour of reorganisation of provinces on 
linguistic bases arc embodied in that document. 

From the popular side, the anti-partition agitation in Bengal, the 
Hilmri*'' plea for separation from Bengal, Berar's desire to be added to 
Maharashtra, and the demand of the Oriyas, the Sindhis and the Kanareso 
for separate 'provinces were the outcome of tho desire for self-expression. 
But each of these peoples urged their respective claims with a desire to 
secure greater advancement for thorn in education and influence in their 
.separate provinces and did not put forward any comprehensive scheme for 1 
reorganisation of -the country as a whole. The first organised attempt at 
formulating a scheme for the country as a whole was made by the Andhras, 
Wk<5i;>IMr r : Mob&gu Hftiie"d Imlia : :in 1919 and toured the country ^along 
with rliorll' GfaelixiBfard; r m influential ^deputation.- 'composed of represerita- 
tives of tho 11 Telega districts in the Madras Presidency, waited oh the 
Secretary of State and the Viceroy and presented a memorandum on the 
subject. That memorandum was presented later on i6 the Joint Parlia- 
uieHiiugr -CJoramittea by Urwan Bahadur M. Kamachandra Rao end is to T be 
found iu.the App<^dices to. the Joint Select Committee's Report (Volume 
HI, page, 110). .1, respectfully commend it for -tho perusal of the Members 
of this .Haqse. - It also contains wmexures giving a detailed scheme for the 
w^ole of India. - Erqm.,the figure faien obtained the proposed Kannada 3Rro' 
viixca. would .comprise 7,, British- districts covering .cm area, of 39,QQO- equate 
m;les and a -population of 6-1 /8- millions. It - i ceHainly large -enough -in 
hftvo A separate adimnisbration. -It will be~two and a half times thfe sizeof 
Belgium. 



138 COUNCIL OF STATE. . [17TU I r EB. 1926. 

[Mr. V. Rumadas Pantulu.] 

It is hardly necessary to point out to this House the place which 
language and literature play in national development and the advantages, 
to be derived by integrating people speaking a common language and posses- 
King a common literature which enshrines their traditions. But I am 
anxious that the reform should be undertaken as u. part of a comprehensive 
scheme, as I stated at the outset. My reasons are threefold. In the first 
place the existing provisions of the Government of India Act relating to the 
creation of new provinces and sub-provinces are very unsatisfactory. Deal- 
ing with thi 1 clause which corresponds to section ;52A of the Government of 
India Act, tlu' Andhni spokesmen before the Joint Parliamentary Committee 
said as follows- 

" The rlau.se does not contain any safeguards that the same form of administra- 
tion prevailing in the Province from which it is separated would he guaranteed to 
the new province. We feel that the proposal for the appointment of a Deputy 
Governor and the creation of -a suh- province is heset with difficulties. In the first 
place the clause does not define the relation.^ hetween the executive of a 
major province and the executive of a minor province. We presume that a 
legislature will also he created for the minor province with subordinate 
povttM's of legislation. If this is the intention various questions, such as. 
the powers of tho two legislatures, the powers of the representation of the minor 
provinces on the legislatures of major provinces, the question whether the administration 
of the minor province will he entrusted to ministers, these and other questions arise 
for fon.sider.it ion. Tf it is the intention of the f miners of the Bill that -II these 
questions should he left to the decision of the Governor General in Council, we see very 
strong objection to the clause as it stands." 

It no\v stands as beet ion 52A with all these defects. So my Kanarese 
brethren are, not in n position to know what kind of administration will be 
vouchsafed to them if they are, forthwith integrated into a separate small 
province. Secondly, as Swarajists, the mover of the Hesolution and myself 
cannot desire the multiplication of dyurehical provinces. At the same time 
I a^roe that we ought not to wait till we get autonomy. So we urgie the 
necessity to take immediate steps, from now, lo find ways and means for 
constituting Kannadu into a- separate province with such provincial 
autonomy as her sister provinces will secure in the revision of the constitu- 
tion, which cannot be long delayed. Thirdly, by reason of the very confused* 
manner in which various groups seeking separation are now intermingled, 
the adjustment of the claim of one for integration as a separate unit will 
necessarily lead to a consideration of the claims of the other groups. So 
with this emphasis on the desirability of tackling the whole question as 
part of a comprehensive scheme, I heartily support tho Resolution of my 
Honourable friend. 

THE HONOURABLE COLONEL NAWAB SIR UMAB HAYAT KHAN 
(Punjab : Nominated Non- Official) : Sir, I am thankful to the Mover for 
bringing this Resolution because the first Resolution had long been 
disposed of and we would not have had anything to do this time before 
the Council adjourned. 

T am sorry, Sir, that most of my colleagues by leaving have, left this 
Resolution to be moved in an empty Chamber. Perhaps they may say 
they do not know what this province is. Great trouble has been talcen to 
explain, but owing to the language used irnd the accent of the Honourable 
Member some of us have been unable to grasp what was said. But all the 
some, as India is so backward in industry, it is a very pice thing to manu- 
facture new provinces. T have to oppose the Resolution, Sir. because my 
province has lost this portion of Delhi as well as the North-West Frontier 



FORMATION OF A SEPARATE 1C AN NAD A PROVINCE. 

Province, and if there are any more partitions made the provinces will 
become very small. That is one of the reasons why I oppose this Resolu- 
tion. In India, Sir, they say that every 18 miles the language changes, 
so if the Janguage was the essential condition in grouping provinces, there 
would be provinces every 18 miles apart aJl over the place. Then comes 
the question of economy. H this province were made, it would have to 
have a Governor and all the paraphernalia and all the expenditure of a 
province. Unless our friend would like to do the work as a Governor and 
pay the expenses which India- would have to pay, I think it would not 
be acceptable to India. So I do hope, Sir, that this proposition will be 
rejected. 

THE HONUUKABLE Mu. J. E. 13. HOTSON (Bombay: Nominated 
Official): Mr. President, the Resolution which has been moved lays stress 
upon the particular needs of the people of the Kanarese- speaking country, 
while the amendment seeks to strike a more general line and asks for a 
recoriHtitution of the whole of India on linguistic grounds. I would ask the 
House, before they accept this Resolution or the amendment, to consider 
it very carefully both from the point of view of principle -and also from 
the question whether there is any genuine, strong popular demand for 
such a, regrouping, and in the third place, whether the proposal is adminis- 
tratively and financially practicable. On the question whether a. linguistic 
basis is the best one on which to divide a country into provinces a very 
great deal has beeii said. I do not think we need go into that now. 
1 will only point out that the experiences among the succession states 
of the Austrian Empire and in the Balkans do not show that distribution 
on this particular basis leads to peace or to happiness. It leads rather 
to the creation of oppressed minorities. I do not think we can press this 
comparison very far; at tho same time it must be remembered that all over 
India now the cry of Bombay for the Bombay people. Burma for the 
Burmese, is becoming stronger than it used to be, especially in the search 
for all sorts of employment nncl most of all among candidates for Gov- 
ernment service among their friends. Now, if we divide all India linguis- 
tically, shall we not rather be introducing a new element of difference 
into the country, a new division, and not strenghtening, not increasing its 
unity'? Looking at the Bombay Presidency, it consists of four large 
language divisions. I do not think any one can say that the Province 
of Bombay has been hampered by the. existence of different languages. 
I think, on the contrary, its culture has been widened by intimate contact, 
between neighbours. Undoubtedly its financial resources have been increas- 
ed. Sind could not have taken up the Barrage now being built at 
Sukkur without the assistance of the. rest of the Presidency; the greafc 
irrigation schemes going on in the Deccan now could not have been taken 
up unless the other members of the Presidency had helped. If the 
forest policy in Kannnda had been shaped merely by the immediate need 
for money in a small province, they would not have been in as flourishing 
a condition AS they are in to-3ay. In Gujerat even the famines that 
struck so sorely at the people would have been more severe in their effects 
on the province and those effects would have been more lasting had not 
the treasury of the whole Presidency been open to help the Guiaratis. I 
think we must hesitate before we can accept this principle as n suitable one. 
Now, whether large or small provinces are better for India is another point 
on which I will not enlarge at the moment. At the same time some of 



.14.0 '.OOCHft'IJilOF/ STATIC, i ,. VI '.J TAM.if 17TII FEB. 1926. 

- [iViiv J. .45. li. Hotson.J 

us havt been iri various provincial legislatures. 1 think each provincial 
legislature is proud of its own position and its o\vn po\ver, tind it is felt 
very strongly tlutt if India was broken up into a "larger number of small 
province's, the power of each local legislature would be less than it is now. 
'The power of the Central Legislature would be enhanced. Now arc we 
prepared to J siiy at once that this is altogether a step in the right direction? 
Our friends want 'provincial autonomy. Are they going to get that provincial 
autonomy sooner? Are they going to make it more real by reducing the 
powers flint the provincial legislatures have already? T think it k very 
tloubtful. E will not say more on that point now. 

I pas* on to the question whether -there is any wtrong, popular demand 
for this ;<lmnge. On this point I can only suy thai about three years ago 
it \v-as proposed to bring hi a Resolution into the Bombay Council asking 
JfoU the creation of a separate, Kunnada Province. That ^Resolution w-as 
disallowed for certain reasons. Ifc was disallowed because in the form in 
which it came forward it proposed in the Bombay Council that large 
portions of the Madras Presidency should be taken away and added to 
the Bombay J 'residency. Had there been any great demand it would 
have been very easy for the, people who desired to press the question to 
have framed that Itesolution in ,1 different, way, in such a form that it 
would have be'eli admitted and could have been discussed. To the best 
of rny knowledge no lie-solution of that sort has ever been brought forward 
or put on the paper in Bombay since then. I remember very well having 
seoil a number of Resolutions asking for an additional Member to represent 
the Kanarese districts in the Bombay Legislative Council, but owing to 
the; luck of the ballot, and to the abstension of our Swarajist friends 
from taking part in business during part of the last two Sessions, those Reso- 
lutions ne,ver came, forward. They were put on the paper though, whereas 
a demand for u Kannada province has never appeared on the paper. 1 
-have had many friends among the representatives of that part of the countrv 
nhd have never heard them press this question strongly. Our friends from 
Hind Have asked for separation occasionally. I do not think they really 
want it, but we havo heard their request. We have not heard in Bombay 
,-iny equally strong request from the Kanarese-speaking people. One reason 
I would bring forward, but time is short, is that there is no real homo- 
geneity in the Kfcharese country now. My Honourable friend has already 
mentioned tho differences in dialects. We have also great differences in 
religion and in caste. We have now tho people that used to be the rulers 
of the whole of the Kama-tic reduced to the state of outcasts. We have 
people in the -very lowest stages of social evolution, and along side them 
people in the highest stages. We do not see MS a matter of fact that 
tfaosdlin 'ihe highest stages arc doing anything to bring forward tKose in 
r t ho -lowei? stages. : Tha T t is not the case -even in such parls of the country 
its iire hbmogeheous; There is 'nothing to shoxy.'that it would be the casb 
were these ^ provinces differently Constituted. Now, as to practicabilitv, 
WH liave'had lots of figures. The Mover of the Resolution said that there 
^werfr 8 million inhabitants in the country r tdiich 'he T would nmka into a 
Ivimhnda ptooviAce-/ The mover of the Hmendfrieht, if T' caught his wortTs 
oorreotiy 1 ,, said thete were 6-1/8 million&. I have : got certain figures' here 
which show that 'tte-Hanaiiesfe-spea,krag people in any tra<*t Which cotifd 
^be -brought -together w6uW not number mor* than 'about 3 millions. 'There 



FORMATION OF A SEPARATE KANNADA PROVINCE. 14-1 

are only two districts which arc almost entirely Kanarese, those are Bijapur 
and Dharwar. Iri two other districts the Kanarese number a large pro- 
portion; those are Belgaum and North Kanara. There are two more, 
namely, South Kauara arid Bcllary, in which there is a very considerable 
proportion of Kanarese-speaking inhabitants. Elsewhere there aro very 
few. It is conceivable thai four districts and parts of two other districts 
might be made into a Karmada. province. In Anaiitapur, out of 11 popula- 
tion of 9 lakhs, thure are 1)0,000 speaking Kanarese. In Madura there 
iare I lakh out of 2 millions. In Salem, there are fewer than 1 lakhs 
out of over 2 millions. In South Kanara there are 2 lakhs out of 1J 
millions. In Coimbatore there are -} million out of nearly 2J millions. In 
Bellary, one of the districts where, they are strong, there are 482,000 out 
of 802,000. I do not think our friends mentioned Sholapur, but at -,\ 
meeting which w?is held at Belgaum a short while ago, they claimed this 
district, on the strength of numbering 50,000 out of 7 lakhs. In North 
Kanara, i.e., Bombay Kanara, there are 226,000 out of 401,000, and in 
parts of that district there "aro no fewer than 131,000 who speak Kotikani, 
a dialect of Mahratti. In Coorg, I find out of 163,000 only something 
under 70,000 speak Kanarese. The Kanarese population there is not quite 
45 per cent ; of the rest, a. large number speak a dialect called Coorgi or 
Kodagu, which, I understand, is related to Kanarese but not, the same. 
The two languages together will amount to 70 per cent., but the Coorgi 
people themselves are as strongly particularist as the Kanarese, and would 
as strongly resent domination by outsiders. They do not want to 
be eaten up by the Kanarese any more than the Kanarese want to be 
eaten up by others. Thus the province which the Honourable Mover 
would desire to create would really be nothing more than a large hole with a 
fringe round it. The hole is Mysore I do not mean any disrespect to 
that great State by this description and the fringe is the Kanarese-speakinp 
country round it, with a lump on one side to represent the four Bombay 
districts. The total revenues of the province, so far as I have been able 
to make an estimate, would not reach 2 crores of rupees. Out of that 
how 1 are you going to make a province with ;a Government and a Legisla- 
ture that could command any influence in India as a whole? The Kana- 
rese people in the Bombay Council now hold an important place; their 
counsels are listened to. They have influence which is as strong as that 
of any other section there. Where would they be if they had a tiny 
legislature of their own and sent up 1, perhaps 2, Members to the Central 
Legislature of India? It wouH be against their interest, not in their 
interest, that this proposal should be accepted. 

THE HONOURABLE MR. J. CEEKAB (Home Secretary) : Sir, T should 
like to express in the first instance my gratitude to my Honourable friend 
from Bombay, for by the first speech which he has made in this Council, 
he has relieved me- of a very great deal of what would otherwise be my 
responsibility. His lucid and cogent statement can, I think, have left 
little doubt in the minds of the House as to the practical possibilities of 
both the Resolution and of the amendment. My task is therefore limited 
to explaining very briefly what is the .nttutude of the Government of India 
towards this x particular proposition and to other propositions of the same 
character. The Government of India regard, and will always regard, with 
respectful and sympathetic consideration 0ny proposals for the constitution 
of administrative units on the basis of linguistic areas which are clearly 
supported by a very strong popular sentiment and which on examination 
are found to produce a reasonable, sound and progressive administrative 
proposition. That view was held and is expounded in the Joint Eeport. 



COUNCIL OF STATE. [T/TH FEB. 1926. 

[Mr. J. Crerar.'l 

It is dealt \\-ith in the Joint Parliamentary Keporl on the Government of 
India Hill. But I should like to invite the special attention of the House 
to this fact thai the Joint Parliamentary .Report in particular lays stress 
upon t.\vo points. They indicate very strongly that any such proposition 
must have 1 :i genuine 1 and forcible popular opinion behind it, and that 
opinion must, and ought to, 'Le expressed in the first instance in the local 
Legislative. Councils concerned. Now, Sir, it is a very remarkable thing 
that the Honourable Dr. Jtainu lino gave no clear indication of the exist- 
ence of any strong measure of popular support. Still Jess did he indicate 
to us thfit tho measure had beo.n considered and debated in the local 
Legislative Councils. Having regard therefore to the very careful 
pronouncement on this matter \vhie.h was made in the Joint Parliamentary 
Ite.port, I think that we should bo acting very dangerously indeed i we 
ourselves at, this stage accepted this Resolution, regarding which we have 
not the slightest ground for believing that the local Legislative. Councils 
desire to urge it with regard to which indeed we have evidence that 
opinion in one local Legislative Council at any rate is distinctly averso 
from it. Xow, Sir, when 1 defined very briefly what the attitude of the 
(JnvermiNMil, of hidisi \\ould be towards a measure, of this kind, I said it 
would necessarily be one of respectful and sympathetic consideration, but 
naliir.ilh also an\ further action to Vo taken would necessarily be conditioned 
OH tho existence of n Lirjri. 1 number of other factors in what would un- 
doubtedly be a most important di cision. The Honourable Member who 
moved this Resolution did not, I think, succeed 1:1 ^atTsfying the House 
with riband (o ihu o*islcno.e ol' those nihor factors. 1 do not deny myself 
thai ;i liiii(iii<4tio basK might he a \ory important, a von potent, factor 
in the constitution of an autonomous provincial area. But after all Mie 
linguistic factor is by no means the only one. The history of the 
Presidencies of Madras and "Bombay COV-PIN .1 long space of time (though 
not precisely in their present form) and the association with them of these 
linguistic communities is not ;i thing of \osterdny or to-day. Traditions, 
conned ions and interest s have been formed, to which very careful con- 
sideration nnmt l:e i*ivin in any scheme for a iv funned administration. 
Tho 'historical, geographical, political, economic- and social factors in tho 
modern world are fruit ors almost as powerful, as. if not in some instances, 
oven more powerful, than those of language alone. On these points, T say 
that the PTonourable gentlemen opposite have not succeeded in satisfying 
us. But- T have, one further objection to make and T wish to make it 
cl'-ar that 1 am not no\v discussing the genera 1 merits of the constitution 
of provinces in the comprehensive, manner suggested by my Honourable 
friend Mr. Ramada-s Pantuhi, nor indeed am I entering into the precise 
merits of the. proposition of the original Mover. Speaking generally, the. 
objection which I think must weigh with us as n vcny powerful objection 
is that wo rare invited to take otncinl nation in n matter which I should 
have thought every consideration of prudence and statesmanship would have 
dictated should be loft to popular initiative. T fear our experience some- 
times has been that action taken hy the. Government of India with regard 
to the redistribution of provinces has not always been received with a very 
warm welcome and that its history has not always been a very happy one. 
Tt. therefore, behoves UR to be particularly careful. I know flint any 
action that we may take in this direction, however much it might ho in 
accordance* with the wishes of one of tho gentlemen opposite. wnvM oc 
received with a very groat deal of suspicion in many quarters. MMit it- 
not bo said, as wap indicated by the Honourable gentleman who pr 



FORMATION OF A SEPARATE KASXADA PROVINCE. 

.me, ihut (ho Cont-nd Government had its own interests in having smaller, 
poorer and therefore weaker provinces under its control? If the Honourable 
gentlemen, having considftred and gone into the mutter further, come into 
this House once more, with a proposition which satisfies all the necessary 
preliminary conditions thai there is a strong, genuine and powerful demand 
for it, thai that demand has received its natural and immediate constitu- 
tional expression .in the local Legislative Councils and that the proposition 
which emerges will be one which is administratively bound, politically 
progressive and economically favourable? to the- populations concerned and 
moreover that, after taking all these considerations into account, the 
results of the proposition will be one which will be conducive not only to the 
interests of the [province, not only to the interests of the communities, 
but to the interests oE India as a whole, then wo should bo prepared to give 
our most care,ful consideration to that, proposition ami take such steps as 
may be found to be incumbent upon us. For these reasons I must ask the 
House to reject both the Resolution and the Amendment. 

TiiJi! HONOURABLE KAO SAHIB JJu. U. 11AMA liAO : The Honourable 
'Member \viio spoke just now said that there was no popular demand. 1 
have, said in m> opening speech that people have been anxiously asking 
for this province tor several years. Any member of this House who will 
read tnc jjii|ium ot the JxiinuUakti province Jr6m -\iangalore, Hijapur, JJiiur- 
war and other places will find that local papers have been asking every 
day 1'or a separate province. Apart rom that, when the Right Hoiiour- 
ablc Montagu CUIMCJ out to Indui in connection with the lleforms scheme, 
the deputation that waited upon him, among other questions, asked lor a 
separate ituriialuku province. The Indian National Congress utter oing 
'into tlie facts ol' the, case did come to the conclusion that a Kurnataka 
province \v:is very necessary, and so they formed the Karuutaku, congress 
circle lor their own purposes. Then, again, Sir, uiy Honourable, friend 
saui that there ought to be a demand IL-OILI thw local 'Legislative Council. 
1 remember aright one Member from liombay who belongs U> the 
Karuataka area did. bring this^niattcr lo the notice of the, Bombay l-*e^is- 
hitive Council, but lie was told that L(. was not the concern of the. Lo^al 
Government but that of the Government of India. Sir, that was the. 
attitude that was taken up then. Now 1 am asked to go to the local Legis- 
lative Councils. 80, between the two Councils, there is no chance for ho 
Kumataka province to be carved out. As for the popular demand, if the 
Honourable Member is not. satisfied that there is any such demand as 1 
have just now mentioned, then- the best thing for him is to appoint a cum- 
inittee which should go about and mate inquiries tn find out if there is 
any demand or not in the country. 1 have sho\\n in my opening speech 
that a number of meetings were hold all over the province of Knrnntnka 
during the last 4 years. 1 am myself a Karnatakn, man and ought to 
know the feelings of the people living there. Such being the case, if the 
Honourable Member is not satisfied that there is a popular demand, the. 
best thing would be to appoint a committee to pn about all over the pro- 
vince and find out the real facts. I am much obliged to the Honourable 
Member, however, that he has accepted the principle that provinces oupf.it 
to be formed on n, linguistic basis. Sir, there is a good deal of popular 
support. My Honourable friend to my left said that the population of 
Karnatnka is 3 millions. I have got a, slip here by which 1 can show it 
comes to 13 millions inchirliug Mysore and Hyderabad. If you exclude 
-Mysore and Hyderabad, the population, comes to 8 millions. So, HIP 
figure that he has quoted is not correct. The figure that I have quoted! 



J44- COUNCIL OF STATE. [1?TH FEB. 1926. 

[Dr. U. Kama Bao.J 

is from the Census Report which is much more reliable than either my 
figure or his figure. 

THE HONOURABLE MR. J. E. 13. HOTSON : My figure also came from 
the Census lieport. 

THE HONOURABLE EAO SAHIB DR. U. EAMA RAO: But the figures 
which he quoted for Dharwar, N. Kanara, Coorg and Bellary are not 
correct. There are a number of people who talk Kanareae in Madras 
Districts. In all these districts Siilem, Nilgiris, Coimbatore, Anantapur 
and the Southern portion of South Kanara they did talk Kanarese origin- 
.ally but now they talk Tamil, Malayam or Telugu. I want all this 
bordering area to be carved into a separate province. If you do not do 
this, year after year the number of Kanarese-speaking peop]e will go down. 
In another 30 years half the population of Karnataka will speak Telugu 
or Maharatti or some other Language. As for the income, I said 3 crores. 
The moment we have a separate province, it will go up considerably. 
We have no railway facilities at present and if you have a coastal railway 
from Mangalore to Goa, the income will go up considerably. At present 
there is no irrigation f facility at .all in Belgaum, Bijapur and Dharwar and 
other places. They cannot raise more than one crop a year. So, unless 
you help us, we have no means of getting any assistance at all. Madras 
does not help us. So between Bombay rand Madras we are nowhere. 
There are at present in the whole of the Karnataka about 4 colleges and 
36 or 37 high schools. Sir, these are all the considerations which must 
weigh with the Government in forming a separate Karnataka province. 
With these few observations I once more appeal to Members of this House 
to look at this question dispassionately and see that a committee be formed 
to go into the question. As for expense I do not think you require a very 
costly machinery as in the other provinces. We do not want Members 2* 
the Executive Council or Ministers on a high pay of Bs. 5,000 per mensem. 

THE HONOURABLE THE PRESIDENT: The original question was: 

" That the following Resolution be adopted : 

1 This Council recommends to the Governor General in Council that a Committee 
of officials and non-officials be forthwith appointed to inquire into, and 
sut?erest ways and means for, the formation of n separate Kannada Pro- 
vince V 

To which an amendment has been moved : 

11 That for that Resolution the following be substituted : 

' This Council recommends to the Governor General in Council that, with a 
view to regrouping of Provinces, as far as possible, on a linguistic basis, 
a committee with a non-official majority be appointed to inquire into, and 
suggest wnys and means for, constituting the Kanarese-speakinp tracts 
of the provinces of Madras and Bombay into a separate Kannada Pro- 
vince V 

The question that I have to put is that that substitution be made. 
The motion was negatived. 

The question then is that the original Besolution be adopted. 
The motion was negatived. 

The Council then adjourned till Eleven of the Clock on Thursday, 
18th February, 1926. 



Copies of the Debates of the Legislative Assembly and of the 
Council of State are obtainable on sale from the Manager, Central 
Publication Branch, 8, Eastings Street, Calcutta. 



COUNCIL OF STATE 
DEBATES 



THURSDAY, 18th FEBRUARY, 1926 

Vol. VII No. 6 



OFFICIAL REPORT 




CONTENTS 



Member Sworn. 

Bill passed by the Legislative Assembly laid on the 

Table-. 
The Railway Budget for 1926-27. 

Elections to the Panel for the Standing Committees on 
Emigration. 

Resolution n> Appointment of a Royal Commission to 
inquire into the working of the Indian Constitution 
Negatived. 

Election of Panels for Standing Committees. 



DELHI 

GOVERNMENT OF INDIA PRESS 
1926 



Price Five Annas. 



COUNCIL OF STATE. 

Thursday, 18th February, 1926. 



The Council met in tho -Council Chamber at Eleven of the Clock, the 
Honourable the President in the Chair. 



MEMBER SWORN : 

The Honourable Sir Clement Hindley, Kt. (Chief Commissioner, 
Railways). 



BILL PASSED BY THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY LAID ON THK 

TABLE. 

TUB SECRETARY OF THE COUNCIL : Sir, in accordance with rule 25 of 
the Legislative Rules, I lay on the table a copy of a Bill to amend the Steel 
Industry (Protection) Act, 1924, for the purpose of increasing the total 
amount payable by way of bounties under that Act in respect of railway 
wagons and of providing for the grant of bounties in respect of underframcs 
for railway passenger carnages, which was passed by the Legislative 
Assembly at its meeting held on the 17th February, 1026. 



THE "RAILWAY BUDGET FOR 1926-27. 

THE HOXOUUAULE Sin CLEMENT HINDLEY (Chief Commissioner, 
Hallways) : Sir, I have the honour to present to the Council a statement of tho 
estimated expenditure and revenue of the Governor General in Council for the 
year 1926-27 in respect of railways. This is the second occasion on which 
the Railway Budget has been dealt with separately from the general 
Budget, and it will be perhaps unnecessary for me to repeat the descrip- 
tion which I gave last year of the benefits which we anticipated from this 
change in procedure and policy. If any doubt of the efficacy of this change 
remained in the minds of those responsible for it or of the wider circle of 
those in the Legislature who were associated with us in carrying it out, I 
believe that that doubt will be removed when the financial position which 
I am*hbout to explain has been fully appreciated. 

2. Amongst other benefits arising out of this change has been the im- 
proved opportunities which we are able to give to the Legislature to consider 
and criticise our work and our proposals. The convention regarding sepa- 
ration of finances enables us to settle the figures of our buSget incle pendent - 
Iv of those pertaining to the general budget, and while last year -we wero 
able to give much ' greater opportunities for discussion than, had been 

( 145 ) A 



146 COUNCIL OF STATE. [18TH FEB. 1926. 

[Sir Clement Hindley.] 

possible before, this year we have been able to carry out the intention,, 
which we indicated, of thoroughly examining the figures in consultation 
with the Standing Finance Committee for Railways. They have approved 
of all our figures and in these circumstances we feel a considerable measure 
of confidence in placing the figures before the Legislature. Not that wu 
expect to pass through the ordeal without criticism. The figures and 
explanations which accompany them are in effect a presentation of an 
account of our stewardship, and I will not pretend that our work has been 
so perfect or that this Council is so tolerant that we can avoid matters for 
criticism. But whatever criticism may be levelled against us or against 
those responsible to us, I would ask this Council, the members of which are 
many of them here for the first fame, to show the same consideration 
in criticism of the Kailway Department which was such n, marked feature 
of our relations with the former Council of State. 

tt. One of the benefits which we anticipated from the separation of 
finances, and which I mentioned. last year, was the fact that tho obligation 
contained in the convention to pay a heavy contribution to the genera) 
revenues would be an impelling factor of 11 constructive nature running 
through the whole of our activities and organisation. Tn the figures and. 
facts which follow I hope to show that this factor has been at work, and 
that, on the one hand, we have taken great strides during the past year in 
bringing :lie railway system of the country into line with requirements, 
and, on the other hand, that our proposals for next year are actuated by a 
desire to still further develop this great national property and to perfect 
the organisation and equipment necessary to enable it to fulfil its proper 
functions. I would, however, take leave to point out that the stimulus 
underlying this great co-ordinated effort to provide the country with a 
transportation system adequate to its needs had its origin in something 
rather less recent, than the separation of finances, and separation 
may perhaps be looked upon as an incident, although an important one, 
on the path of reconstruction and re-organisation. 

4. The Council will remember the parlous condition into which the rail- 
ways of this country had fallen at the time when Sir William Acworth's 
Committee reported. They will remember the nature of the evidence- 
brought before that Committee on the one hand by the public indicating 
the artificial restrictions imposed on trade and travel by the inadequacy of 
transportation facilities, and on the other by responsible railway administra- 
tions showing how their efforts towards improvement and development were 
cramped and stunted by the intolerable system of financing the railways 
which had obtained so long. 

They will remember no doubt the remedies suggested, reorganisation of 
the controlling department, decentralisation, and a more business-like 
method of allotting funds for improvement and development. These and 
many other minor remedies we have been endeavouring to apply. In some 
directions we have had success, in others we still have much to da; but I 
claim that we have at least made progress. 

The Council will remember that before sufficient time had elapsed 
for the implications of the Acworth Committee's report to be fully under- 
stood or acted upon, the railway business of the country was again brought 
under close examination by Lord Tnchcape and his Committee. Looked at 
Jn the proper perspective, which we cnn apply at this distance of time, 



THE RAILWAY BUDGET FOR 1926-27. 147 

we can recognise that the report which this Committee submitted was in 
many respects the complement of the former Committee's report. Though 
to many critics at the time there seemed to be divergent views and recom- 
mendations, I feel that nothing but the ruthless analysis of our business in 
all its ramifications which those two Committees applied, could have enabled 
us to build up our present position, The application of the ideas and prin- 
ciples contained in those reports to the whole of our business has brought 
about a synthesis of all that was admirable in both of them, and we should 
be ungrateful indeed if we did not give full recognition to the work which 
they did and the stimulus to which that work gave birth. 

I cannot attempt without taking up an. inordinate portion of the time 
of the Council to give a complete picture of the change which has been 
brought about as the result of this new spirit, bufc in dealing with the figures 
in the estimates and in describing our work, I hope 1 shall be 
able to show that the railway property which my department controls is 
now in a sound financial position, that it is being maintained with efficiency, 
and that it is meeting the transportation needs of tlu^ country in a manner 
which has never been approached before. 

5. Honourable Members of this Council will have shortly placed in 
their hands copies of the statement of the revised and budget estimates, 
together with a memorandum explaining the budget and separate books 
which have been prepared for each railway administration under our con- 
trol. They will also be furnished with copies of the speech now being 
made by the Honourable Railway Member in the other House. I will ask 
Honourable Members to exercise patience while I endeavour to give a brief 
summary of the outstanding figures in the estimates. 

Working Results (Revenue Receipts and Charges) Commercial Lines. 

6. I will first deal broadly with the estimated working results in the 
current and next financial years. In the budget presented last year wo 
estimated the gross traffic receipts from commercial lines at 100 crores 65 
lakhs, or with the addition of miscellaneous receipts, 101 crores and 34 lakhs 
of gross receipts. The working expenses were estimated at 65 crores 5 
lakhs, and the total charges including interest, etc., 90 crores 54 lakhs, 
leaving a net gain from the commercial lines of 10 crores 80 lakhs. From 
the results now available for the current year the budget estimate figures 
have been revised and the gross traffic receipts are expected to reach 98 
crores 86 lakhs only which, with the addition of miscellaneous receipts, will 
give total receipts of 99 crores 81 lakhs. Working expenses are now esti- 
mated at 63 crores 87 lakhs, and the total charges at 89 crores 36 lakhs, 
leaving a net gain of 10 crores 45 lakhs, or about 35 lakhs less than antici- 
pated in the budget estimate. 

7. For next year, 1926-27, we estimate traffic earnings at 101 crores 
35 lakhs which with miscellaneous receipts will give us total receipts of 
102 crores 58 lakhs. Working expenses are estimated at 65 crores and 
18 lakhs and total charges at 92 crores 13 lakhs, giving a net gain of 10 
crores 45 lakhs, the same as in the revised estimate for the current year. 

8. Of the net gain of 10 crores 45 lakhs estimated for the current year, 
the net contribution to general revenues after meeting the loss on strategic 
railways will be 5 crores 32 lakhs, while 3 crores 45 lakhs will be trans- 
ferred to railway reserves. For next year if we realise the estimated net 
gain of 10 erores 45 lakhs, general revenues will receive a net contribu- 
tion of 601 lakhs and railway reserves will receive 2 crores 70 lakhs. 

A 2 



148 COUNCIL OF STATE. [18TII FflB. 1926. 

i[Sir Clement Hindley.] 

*9. I should like to emphasise certain figures which are of importance 
from the commercial point of view. The total capital at charge on all 
railways at the end of last financial year was 655 crores, of which 580 crores 
was the expenditure on commercial lines exclusive of the capital contribut- 
ed by Companies. At the end of the current year the total capital at 
charge is expected to be 674 crores, of which 599 crores represents com- 
mercial lines. After meeting all interest charges our contributions to 
general revenues since the separation of finances will amount to 6 crores 
78 lakhs in 1924-25, 5 crores 32 lakhs in 1925-26 and 6 crores 1 lakh in 
1926-27, or a total of 18 crores 11 lakhs in the three years. In the same 
period the amounts placed to railway reserves are : 6 crores 38 lakhs in 
1924-25, 3 crores 45 lakhs in 1925-26,' and 2 crores 70 lakhs in 1926-27, or 
a total of 12 crores 53 lakhs. 

It is interesting to compare this position with the position in 1921-22 
when with a total capital at charge of 606 crores, the net income was in- 
sufficient to meet the interest charges hy 9J crores. From tho close of 
that year to the end of the current financial year the net additions to 
capital at charge will be approximately 68 crores, general revenues will 
have received no less than 19 crores 73 lakhs as clear contributions after 
paying all interest, the railways will have built up a reserve fund of 9'83 
crores arid have further established a depreciation fund which, after meeting 
sill necessary appropriation* for replacements and renewals, is expected to 
show a balance of 6 crores 71 lakhs. These figures present a striking 
contrast to the financial position of the railways at the time when Lord 
Inchcape's Committee reported, and it is well to remember what thai 
Committee considered should bu the aim for our future work. They laid 
down the principle that the railways as a whole should yield not less 
than 5 per cent, on the capital invested, and they calculated that when 
we had had time to effect economies in working expenses we should be 
able to make a net return of 8 crores per annum to the State. They did not 
expect that this result could be obtained immediately and in fact they even 
made drastic proposals for postponement of necessary expenditure in order 
io enable the railways to produce a net return of 4 crores in that year. 

In effect we made a net return of ncauly 6^ crores, while in the subse- 
quent two years we have produced an average net profit consider- 
ably above the figure anticipated by the Committee. These figures, I 
claim, show that the railway property of tho State during the last few 
vivirs has been brought into a sound financial position, a position which 
has been achieved largely by the application of commercial principles and 
:i wise financial policy. 

Before passing 011 1 would call attention to the fact that while during 
vjach year since the date of separation, the contribution of one per cent, 
on the capital at charge to general revenues is an increasing figure, moving 
from 540 lakhs in 1924-25 to an estimated figure of 580 lakhs next year, 
the amount to bo placed to railway reserves is a steadily decreasing 
figure, and we are budgetting for a smaller figure for noxt year than the 
estimated amount for the current year. We have yet to learn by experience 
what amount should, ultimately be required- in our reserves, but from the 
analogy of what is found necessary in other commercial concerns and other 
commercial railways we are still a long way off from reaching a figure 
which will place the railways in a. perfectly safe position having regard to 



THE UA1LWAY HUlXiKT FOR 1920-27. 14<J 



the obligations of the separation convention and the unknown obligation.-? 
of the future. In a, year, for instance, in which bad monsoon conditions 
might bring with it. i^ heavy set back in earnings without an opportunity 
r> bringing clown working expenses to a- corresponding degree it is con- 
ceivable that the payment of the contribution might mako a very heav} 
call indeed on our reserves. Our contribution increases every year and 
our liability is mi ever-increasing one. We cannot, therefore, yet estimate 
what figure \ve should finally aim at for the accumulated reserve. 

On the other hand the existence of a reserve fund, meagre as it is 
at. present , and the existence of financial arrangements which will ensure- 
a fair share of profits going into the reserve in the future makes it possible 
to take temporary risks with our earning power. And as I shall explain 
later we have had during the pasl fpAv month* n, most careful examination 
made by all the railway administrations with a view to ascertaining the 
best form to giv** to this risk. It has been decided that certain reductions 
in fuivs and freights, most of which have already been notified, will be 
justified by eventual incroason in earnings and the existence of reserves 
entitles us to hike the risk nf making those reductions 

]KVISKD ESTIMATE, 1025-20. 

('irons Earning*. 

10. In the Budget presented last year we estimated the gross earning 
for this year at 100 eroros 65 lakhs. 'Although we have had an increase in 
passenger earnings estimated at about 37$ lakhs, in goods traffic we 
have had a serious falling off, and wo anticipate receiving about 245 lakhs 
Jess than we had budgctted for. The net effect is anticipated to bring our 
total receipts for the year to 99 crores 81 lakhs, or 1 crorc and 53 lakhs 
less th.-in the budget estimate figure. 

Working EriwnaeB. 

The working expenses in the current year ju*e now estimated to be 
1 crore and 18 lakhs less than in the budget estimate for the current 
year. This reduction is due partly to the fact that we have deferred 
expenditure on the work of fitting our rolling stock with automatic central 
buffer couplers pending a re-investigation of the method of conversion. 
It is now probable that we shall be able to shorten the period of inter- 
ference with traffic by adopting the method of preliminary alteration and 
adaptation instead of using a transition device, but it may be some time 
before we can proceed with the actual conversion. 

There is a further cause for the reduction in working expenses, 
namely, the fact that the special provision of 50 lakhs for speeding 
up repairs to rolling stock has only been drawn upon to the 
extent of 25 lakhs, but the solution of the difficult problem of 
keeping repairs up to date depends largely on the completion 
of certain schemes of workshop improvement which are now in hand and 
the results of the investigation into workshops facilities which is now 
going on. Meanwhile the general position in regard to repairs of loco- 
motives and wagons shows an improvement over the position a year ago 
although the position as regards coaching stock is not altogether satisfactory 



150 COUNCIL OF STATE. [18TII FEB. 1926. 

[Sir Clement Hindley.] 

BUDGET ESTIMATE, 1926-27. 

Oroas Earnings. 

11. Next year we are budgetting fur gross earnings of 101 crores 35 
lakhs, an increase of about 249 lakhs over the revised estimate for the 
current year. In making this estimate we have assumed a continuance 
of the present favourable conditions and a good monsoon. But we have 
also taken into account the reduced earnings resulting from the reduction 
in rales and fares to which I have already referred. But for these reduc- 
tions we should have been justified in placing the estimate at about 2 
crores higher than this figure. As regards passenger fares, full particulars 
of the reductions already notified will be found in the proceedings of the 
Standing Finance Committee for Railways, and those who have leisure to 
study these proceedings will see that a very careful examination has been 
made of the position as regards passenger traffic on each of the large rail- 
ways. The principle which the Railway Board have adopted is to let each 
railway administration take stock of its position, and arrange the level of 
its fares so as to encourage the largest volume of traffic at a paying rate. 
As I have said, the stronger financial position in which we now find ourselves 
owing to the separation of finances and the prospect of building up an 
adequate reserve fund makes it possible to take the risk of a temporary 
drop in earnings. It is, however, essential to bear in mind that reductions 
in fares can only be made where commercial justification exists and where 
such action will lead ultimately to larger net earnings and consequently i 
further strengthening of the reserves. Where, for instance, the normal 
growth of passenger traffic has been arrested or retarded, it is legitimate to 
conclude that a reduction of fares will stimulate travelling and bring the 
rate of growth back to what is regarded and what has been more or less 
established as the normal annual growth. 

Kate fixing is always a matter of trial and error, and if a 
rate is fixed too high traffic will be discouraged, while if it is fixed 
too low profits will vanish. To hit the happy mean where profitable traffic 
is stimulated is the object we have in view. The recently notified reduc- 
tions must be looked upon as P further stage in the experiment rather 
than necessarily the beginning of n downward movement of unforeseen 
limits. Our financial obligations compel us to go cautiously, for to drop 
below the remunerative point would bo fatal to the whole of our financial 
structure. But we are confident that, with the method now adopted of 
analysing the flow of traffic and studying the effect of changes in fares we 
shall be able to go further in adjusting the charges to the needs of an ever- 
increasing travelling public. Railway administrations will perhaps be 
criticised for moving too slowly in reductions, but when the actual reductions 
in earnings on the different railways which we are budgetting for are studied, 
for instance, 34 lakhs on the Great Indian Peninsula Railway, 17 lakhs on 
the South. Indian Railway, 33 lakhs on the North Western Railway, 18 
lakhs on the Enst Indian Railway and reductions now proposed oil the 
Burma Railways costing 12 lakhs/ I do not think that such criticism will 
be held to be justified. We have at any, rate made a beginning, and we 
have also made a beginning in the reduction of rates. 

There are, of course, many claimants for reductions in goods rates. But 
here again the problem of rate fixing is one largely of trial and error. 



THE RAILWAY BUDGET FOR 1926-27. If)] 

silthough it is beset with many indeterminate factors which do not influence 
passenger traffic to the same extent. Commodities and their movements 
have to be watched and studied in different localities, and unless the greatest 
care is exercised changes in rates may have entirely unforeseen results. 
Where the movement of commodities between different points is handi- 
capped by the level of rates to an extent which actually restricts traffic, 
it is obviously a business proposition to make some adjustment, subject 
always to the consideration that the traffic is still earning a profit. The 
examination which is required for this purpose is one which is continually 
going on, but, as in the case of passenger fares, we have felt justified in 
asking railway administrations to give this matter special attention with 
<i view to stimulating the movement of any commodity where this may 
be possible. It is, however, specially in regard to coal traffic over long 
distances that we feel that there is an opportunity of affording some 
stimulus. We believe that in so far as we can increase the area within 
which the industrial use of coal is economically possible we shall thereby be 
stimulating industries themselves, and ultimately benefit-ting our railway 
business through the traffic which arises as a consequence of the growth 
of these industries. There, are therefore good arguments for carrying 
rnjil over long distances as cheaply as possible. The rates at which we 
carry coal at present are low rates. Having regard to the high propor- 
tion which coal traffic bears to other traffic on two, at any rate, of our 
great railways, it is held in some quarters that these rates "in themselves 
amount to a subsidy. There is considerable doubt whether any reduction 
would not bring this traffic to the point of being non-remunerative. -But 
that is an argument which I need not enter into now because we arc 
emboldened by what has happened in the past to believe that the reduc- 
tion which we now propose to make will act as a stimulus, and that at 
a time when the business of coal producing and coal using is in need 
of such a stimulus. It is being arranged, therefore, with effect from 
1st April to reduce the rates on ooal carried more than 400 miles to u 
scale which will be equivalent to a reduction of 14 As. a- ton at Cawnpore, 
1 Re. 2 As. a ton at Ahmedabad and 1 He. 10 As. at Bombay. With this 
new scale tho charges for carrying coal over long distances will be about 
10 per cent, less than al present and only 20 per cent, higher than the 
scale in force in 1905. 

As regards the rates for oal carried over shorter distances, there is no 
evidence to show that any reduction that we could afford to make would 
result in an appreciably larger volume of coal being moved. We have, 
however, before us the recommendation of the Coal Commitfcu in regard 
to a further rebate on export coal, and when the new Grading Board gets 
to work, we shall be in a better position to come to a decision on this 
point. 

T have explained the reductions in rates and fares already decided upon. 
As I have said, we shall during the year bring further examination to bear 
on this matter, and we have in fact formed our estimate of earnings ori 
a basis which, if other assumptions we have made arc fulfilled, allows for 
some further adjustments. 

BUDGET ESTIMATE, 1926-27. 

Working Expenses. 

12. The estimate for gross expenditure during next year, 92 crores 
13 lakhs, is 2 crores and 77 lakhs more than the revised figures for tho 



152 rorxeir, OF STATE. 

[Sir Clement Hindley.] 

current year. Of this sum, an increase in our interest charges owing to our 
higher capital at charge accounts for 130 lakhs, while an increase of 
40 lakhs must he made in the appropriation to the Depreciation Fund 
which depends on a calculation based on the probable life of our 
wasting .assets. There is also an increased provision for repairs to rolling 
stock by 'K> lakhs and a slightly higher provision for operation, counter- 
balanced liU-goJv by the? saving in our fuel bill consequent on the lower 
prices for market purchases of coal during the coming year r the effects 
of which havtj broii explained in tho Budget Memorandum. 

ESTIMATE, 1925-26. 



Expenditure , 

13. Thi' approved programme of capital expenditure in the current 
\oar was i\2 orores 7 Jaklis, but while authority was given to push on 
with all approved works, we estimated that the railway administrations- 
would not spend more than 22 crores 90 lakhs. Actually we expect now 
that the expenditure will be about 10 crores 50 lakhs, leaving a lapse of 
'>\ orores 40 Inkhs. Tho lapse has mainly occurred in the expenditure on 
new linos largely owing to delays in land acquisition proceedings, and we 
have been able to spend to within 40 lakhs tho amount estimated for open 
lino works. 

We have taken special steps to expedite the process of obtaining 
approval to works of proved necessity and have simplified the system of 
preparing :xnd submitting estimates and for tho certification of indents, and 
wo have also delegated larger powers of sanction to Agents and Boards of 
Directors. In this connection it is satisfactory to be able to announce 
that tho Secretary of State recently has increased largely our powers of 
sanction for new works, and many projects which formerly had to be refer- 
rod to him for sanction can now be sanctioned by the Government of India 1 . 
In agreeing to this delegation the Secretary of State has recognised that 
tho obligation which we have undertaken under the separation convention 
to pay not only the. interest on our capjtal at charge but an additional con- 
tribution to tho general revenues furnishes a guarantee for economical 
working such MS justifies a wide relaxation of his control. 

BUDGET ESTIMATE, 1926-27. 

Capital Expenditure. 

14. Tho programme for next year for expenditure on approved works 
represents an estimated outlay of 34 crores 58 lakhs from capital and of 
10 crores G5 lakhs from the Depreciation Fund. We do not propose to 
restrict expenditure on sanctioned works as it is of obvious advantage, 
once they are sanctioned, to expedite them as much as possible, but we 
have formed our own estimate of the probable actual expenditure, which 
we place at 22 crores from capital andJ)J crores from the Depreciation 
Fund. The total demand for capital expenditure will be 26 crores as we have 
included 4 crores for the purchase of the Delhi Umbala 'Kalka Bailway. 
The terms of this purchase and the reasons which justified it are explained 
in a statement attached to the Budget Memorandum. 

15. The gross figure of capital expenditure involved in the programme 
for next year is divided into 24 crores 76 lakhs for open line 



THE RAILWAY BUDGET FOU 1926-27. 

works and 9 crores 82 lakhs for the construction of new lines 
and lines at present under, construction. For open lino works we arc 
allotting 17 crores 87 lakhs and for rolling stock 8 crores 10 lakhs. The 
Budget Memorandum gives full particulars of these open line works, which 
are shown in greater detail in the separate books for each railway. This 
expenditure is directed not only towards the better and more efficient 
handling of present traffic, but also towards enabling the railways to meet 
the natural expansion of traffic and further to stimulate 1 , that expansion. 
Amongst the most important of the various items included in this category 
is the provision for remodelling marshalling yards 3 crores 40 lakhs and 
doubling and quadrupling of existing tracks 1 crore 40 lakhs. These works 
are primarily intended to expedite and facilitate the movement of traffic 
by increasing the capacity of various routes. For instance, 
the Bombay-Poona section of the Great Indian Peninsula- Railway is to be 
improved by eliminating the reversing station at Bhore Ghat, the doubling 
of tho Grand Chord line of the East Indian Railway is approaching com- 
pletion, the Bombay, Baroda and Central India Railway line into 
Bombay is being quadrupled, and the Tshurdi-Gopalpur section 
of the Eastern Bengal Railway is being doubled. Amongst the- 
larger yard remodelling schemes are, the Victoria Terminus al 
Bombay, Ahmedabad station, Luckuow and TricUinopoly, import- 
ant junction stations whoso limited capacity has been a severe 
handicap to traffic, while progress will also bo made on improving a 
number of other stations which are at present unable to deal with traffic 
with that expedition and efficiency which we must have if we are to continue 
the present all-round improvements. In this connection I may mention 
that the introduction of improved statistics has bcon of great value in 
analysing .the work done in marshalling yards and has been the means of 
suggesting many improvements and economies in working. We have also 
had during tho year an officer on special duty making a special study of 
some of the larger centres of traffic congestion, and his work has been of 
great, value in designing improved arrangements. The work done covers, 
for instance, the important centres of Delhi, Cawnpore, Agra, Naihnii and 
certain stations and sections on the Bengal Na^pur Railway. 

Another important group of improvement works is represented by the 
provision of 2 crores and 25 lakhs for improved rails and sleepers and 1 CTOIY 
for strengthening of bridges. These works are the yearly instalment of the 
steady process of raising the standard of our main lines to carry the heavier 
train loads now necessary. Each railway now has its properly co-ordinated 
programme for strengthening and improvement of bridges and track, work- 
ing up towards definite standards which the Railway Board has prescribed. 
In regard to these standards, in which considerations of the design of loco- 
motives and rolling stock, the design and weight of rails arid track and the 
design of bridges have to be co-ordinated, the Railway Board continue to 
investigate and study the question of appropriate standards, and for this 
purpose we have permanent Standing Committees to advise us on the 
different aspects of the subject. There is perhaps no branch of our technical 
work, which requires more attention and care if we are to meet the growing 
demands for improved capacity and at the some time take adequate advant- 
age of the accumulated experience in this and other countries. To carry our 
increasing; traffic with efficiency we have to continue to make progress 
towards heavier train loads, which means larger rolling stock, heavier loco- 
motives and heavier axle loads with the natural consequence of stronger 
track and bridges. The normal length of life of bridges and permanent way 



!l. r )4 COUNCIL OF STATE. [18TII FEB. 1926. 

[vSir Clement Hindley.] 

make it necessary to take very long views of probable increase in loading, and 
ifc is necessary therefore to continually study and improve the standards by 
which design of all this equipment is governed. 

Another important item is 2 crores for electrification of lines. The open- 
.ing of the electrified Harbour Branch at Bombay a year ago was mentioned 
as the first step in introducing electrification in India. Within the last few 
days the electric train service has been continued to Bandra, and the great 
improvement in the convenience which this affords to those who live in the 
suburbs and work in Bombay is expected to result in a large increase in 
traffic. The electrification of the suburban lines of the Bombay, Baroda 
and Central India Railway is well in hand, and when this is completed and 
electric trains take the place of steam trains in the whole of the Bombay 
suburban area, there is little doubt that Bombay will feel a very great 
benefit and that a better distribution of its great population may be looked 
for in the early future. 

The re-examination of the problem of suburban traffic in 
'Calcutta, as the result of the decision to proceed with the con- 
struction of the new bridge at Bally, is now approaching completion, 
;;md we expect shortly to receive the report of the Electrical Engineers on 
the revised electrification scheme. If on this report it appears that a 
tiound financial scheme can be worked out, there is little doubt that we shall 
go forward with it without delay, .and we hope that it will be possible to 
bring suburban passengers much nearer to the centre of the city than is 
now possible. 

The Madras suburban traffic problem will also be dealt, with in the 
coming year, and we expect to make considerable progress with the addi- 
tional tracks on the South Indian Railway which are the primary necessity 
in this area. The question of electrification depends to some extent on the 
prospects of hydro-electric power supply and in regard to this we are in 
Hose touch with the Government of Madras. 

On the Bombay side the main lines of the Great Indian Peninsula 
Railway are to be electrified as far as Poona and Igatpuri at a total cost 
of 5J crores, and we are making a provision of 19 lakhs for the initial work 
n*3xt year. 

We are continuing a fairly heavy programme of workshop improvement 
jind remodelling including the provision of new plant and machinery, 
the necessity for which was fully explained and accepted at the 
time of last year's budget. So far as the State railways are con- 
cerned, the problem of co-ordinating the facilities and equipment 
in the larger workshops has become an urgent one. In making 
extensions nneV' revisions of the lay-out of these workshops, which 
must be done if we are to work economically and take advant- 
age of modern improvements, it is necessary to avoid overlapping and 
duplicating where this is possible, and we, therefore, decided to get expert 
advice on the whole subject. We were fortunate in obtaining the services 
of Sir Vincent Eaven, an eminent mechanical engineer and President of 
the Institution of Mechanical Engineers, and he and his committee are at 
present engaged on investigating this problem. We hope that as the result 
of the advice of this committee we shall get. the best possible value from the 
-expenditure which in any case will be necessary on these workshops in the 
mear future. 



THE UAILWAY BUDGET FOU 1926-27. 155 

16. The? programme for rolling stock authorises the construction of 692 
auge units and 285 metre gauge units for lower class traffic, and 146 

'broad gauge and 71 metre gauge units for upper class, part of these being 
renewals and part additions. Altogether we are allotting 148 lakhs for 
additions and betterments to lower class stock. The work which can be 
put tltfough in the year is still limited to a large extent by the capacity of 
our workshops, and in view of the fact that reductions in fares must, if they 
are to be justified, stimulate traffic, it will bo understood that workshop 
improvement admits of no delay. 

17. As regards locomotives, wo arc providing lor the addition of 90 
new broad gauge engines and f>3 new metre gauge engines besides normal 
renewals. The policy of the Railway Board in regard to standardisation 
of locomotives has been fully explained in successive Administration Re- 
ports, and we have recently reached the point of having new standard 
designs for a number of types of locomotives finally drawn up. These 
standard designs embody modern locomotive practice which is considerably 
In advance of the present standard engines designed many years ago and 
arc specially suited to Indian conditions. Before these types are finally 
accepted as our future standards, they must be tried out and any defects 
which become apparent in actual work must, be eliminated by changes in 
design or detail as may be required. The provision in next year's budget 
will be largely utilised for obtaining the necessary number of trial engines 
to the new type to enable them to be tried on the principal railway systems 
under varying local conditions. This marks an important stage in our 
development ami brings us measurably nearer to complete standardisation 
a condition which will enormously simplify many of our present problems 
of repairs and renewals. 

18. In concluding my remarks about rolling stock I may mention that 
the programme includes allotment for 2,702 additional goods wagons besides 
the renewal of 4,650 wagons during the year. It is, of course, necessary 
to place orders for wagons required in anv one year several months before 
the beginning of the year owing to the time 'taken for manufacture 
and delivery. The various railway administrations requiring wagons of 
similar types agreed to combine in making a simultaneous eall for tenders. 
These tenders from Indian, British and Foreign firms were examined by 
the "Rnilwav Board and orders have been placed with Indian wagon build- 
ing firms to the full extent of their capacity as certified by the Indian 
Stores Department. The balance has been ordered from an English firm 
which submitted the lowest satisfactory tender. Prices quoted by the 
Indian firms were the lowest hitherto quoted by them. The difference 
between these priees and the equivalent of the lowest satisfactory quota- 
tion from abroad will be met from bounties payable under the Steel Pro- 
tection Act. 

New lines. 

19. As will be seen from the Budget Memorandum we are expecting 
to have under construction during next year a new construction programme 
of over 2,500 miles eovering no less than 63 different projects. But this 
represents only a part of the development which we are actively con- 
sidering. We have dealt with the problem of new construction on the 
basis of examining the whole country in separate areas roughly correspond- 
ing to the areas served by the different, railway administrations, and we 
have asked each railway administration to prepare a continuous programme 
of survey and construction . over a period of years taking, as in the case 
of the improvement programme, the quinquennium as the most suitable 



'OrMTL OF STATE. | 18TII 1>JJ. 1920- 



[Sir Clement Hindley.] 

period for this purpose. The investigation of projects by menus of surveys 
and the collection of data for traffic estimates takes a considerable time 
;ind the number of months in the year when this work can be undertaken is- 
somewhat limited. Also most railways have been so pro-occupied during the 
past few years with the problem of improvement to their open lines 
that they have not been able to spare the necessary staff for the full investi- 
gation of the construction problem. We have got over this to some extent 
hy special recruitment on a temporary basis, and \ve have arranged thai 
most railways shall have an officer at headquarters specially engaged 'on 
this important work. We have also been in close consultation with Local 
Governments and arc endeavouring to meet their wishes as regards the- 
routes to be taken and the order in which projects shall be taken up. In 
this connection I may remind the Council of the arrangement we have 
established under which it is open to a Local Government, in cases where 
our estimates do not show a remunerative prospect, to obtain the con- 
struction of a railway by guaranteeing us against loss. This arrangement 
is already proving advantageous in enabling us to consider and bring up to 
date projects which would otherwise have been indefinitely deferred. 

20. The programmes of work on survey and construction which the rail- 
way administrations are now engaged on, revising them and adding to them 
from year to year, indicate that we have only made n bare beginning on 
favourable construction projects, and our improved financial position re- 
sulting from the separation of finances enables us to take a bold line in this- 
direction. The total mileage of the projects which we have either sanc- 
tioned or are having investigated amounts to between 0,000 and 7,000 
miles, and when all our arrangements are in full swing, I see no reason 
why we should not bring up our total yearly mileage addition to something 
in the neighbourhood of 1,000 miles. With this in view we are providing 
a larger allotment for survey work in the coming year with the object rl" 
completing and revising projects which promise to be satisfactory investments. 

21. I will deal briefly with the various large areas which we have 
examined in the present investigation. Til Burma construction is proceed- 
ing on a number of important new branches. In addition we have under 
consideration further branches which it is hoped will open up the country. 
while a survey is now being made for an extension to Tavoy and Mergul 
with the possibility of a connection in the future with the Siamese Govern- 
ment Railways. A survey is also in progress, in collaboration with the 
Government of Burma, for a better route through the Arakan mountains. 
a region which has hitherto opposed great physical difficulties to success- 
ful railway construction. The total mileage of the lines on the future 
programme of the Burma Railways amounts to about 1,800 miles in all, 
most of which, we hope, will prove to be of a remunerative nature. 

Tn South India our papers will show that active construction is pro- 
ceeding on the South Indian Railway on a programme "ontoinplr.lintf the 
addition of 250 miles a year during the next 6 years. 

The territory served by the Madras and Southern Mahratta Railway 
does not present such a promising field for new construction, but prospects 
are being investigated of a number of projects amounting with" IKose 
already sanctioned to about 500 -miles. New branches with a total length 
of about 100 miles have recently been sanctioned and others are under 
investigation. 



THE ItAIIAVAV BUDGET FOR ltU0-2J7. 157 

III the area lying between the East Indiafc Railway and the East 
4Joast which is largely served by the Bengal-Nagpur llailway we have 
ivvo great projects in hand. The first is the Central Indian Coal Fields 
Kaihvay with a total mileage of nearly 300 miles designed to serve the 
new Karanpura coalfields area and to give an outlet to Daltonganj on the 
one side and to the Bengal-Nagpur Railway main line on the other, with 
a fulure connection towards the west which it is hoped will enable the 
coal measures in Korea to be developed and will considerably cheapen the 
transport of coul to the west of India. The Hesla Chandil Railway, 
which forms a part of the scheme, will probably be opened in the 
course of the year, while this line from Bcrmo to South Karanpura has 
recently been completed. The second is the completion of the Knipur- 
Vizianagram line, 260 miles in length, with which is intimately connected 
the construction of a new harbour at Vizagaputam. Construction on the 
railway has commenced und a provision of 1 J crorcs has been made for next 
year. Work on the harbour has also commenced, and the suction dredger 
which has been ordered is expected to arrive at the harbour next October. 
If all goes well, it is anticipated that a channel will be opened during nexi 
cold weather whirl i by this time next year may unable an oceangoing ship 
to reach smooth water in the harbour area which is now being prepared 
for that purpose. I may mention that the harbour construction project 
tloes not find a place in the railway budget, but in the general budget, 
although for administrative reasons the work is under the control of the 
llailway Board. 

In Eastern Bengal, several remunerative projects with a mileage of 
uboul 150 have recent 1\ been sanctioned, and several other projects are 
under investigation. 

In Assam, we are in agreement with the views of the. Board of Directors 
<>f the Assam-Bengal Hallway thai that railway can only he made to pay 
Its way by the development of the area it serves by means of branches, 
and the Agent is preparing u programme which will eventually add a. 
mileage of some 550 miles in that province. For the present we have 
sanctioned several small branches which give promise of bringing 
Considerable additional traffic to the main line. I may say that after 
many years of unremunerativc working this railway is at length shewing 
signs of reaching a better financial position, but it has many handicaps 
owing to its geographical position, ami the greatest care is still necessary 
in watching expenditure. 

In the United Provinces and Bihar, we hope to go forward with new 
construction through some of the prosperous districts which are still 
meagrely served by Railways and where there, is a chance of improving 
traffic to the benefit of the locality and to the main JincB of railway. 
At present between 200 and 300 miles of new lines are under consideration 

The problem on the Bombay side is being tackled by the Great Indian 
Peninsula Railway and the Bombay, Baroda and Central India Railway, 
nnd it is hoped that the result of their present investigations will enable 
us to go forward with new construction in that area on a fairly extensive 
scale, although it must be admitted that except for cheaply constructed 
branch lines there is not the same inducement to build as there is in 
some of the more populated and highly cultivated areas. 

In the Punjab, we have already come to decisions in regard to some of 
the projects which have been unoler consideration, and apart from the 
Kangra Valley Railway on which construction is now commencing, we 



158 COUNCIL OF STATE. [18TH FEB. 1926. 

[Sir Clement Hindley.] 

hope shortly to begin work on the Narowal-Amritsar connection and 
the Narowal-Shahdera line, while we have recently appointed a special 
engineer to investigate a large number of smaller projects, some of which 
were formerly considered to be suitable for agricultural tramways. We 
have been working in agreement with the Punjab Government in this 
matter, and we have decided that many of these lines can only prove to 
be remunerative if built on a lower standard than that usually adopted. 
We have in fact in preparation a scheme of building light broad gauge 
branches suitable for agricultural areas which, with the facility they give 
for interchange of rolling-stock, we believe, will prove of great use 
to the local population. I would draw attention to the assistance whiclr 
it is hoped that railways will thus be enabled to give towards the improve- 
ment and betterment of agriculture generally, and I have no doubt that 
this subject will be one which will be of interest to the Royal Commission^ 
which has recently been announced, when it cornes to make the investiga- 
tion. 

In Sind also we have taken up the question of feeder lines in agricul- 
tural districts where extensions of irrigation promise a definite improve- 
ment in output, and North Western Railway administration are in close 
communication with the local authorities in that province. 

In concluding this review of the construction programme T would repeat 
that the mileage added to the railways last year and this year 
are only a partial index to the work which \ve have in hand and that we 
expect before long to reach a much higher output. 

General Matters. 

22. I now wish to mention a few of the directions which our activities 
have taken during the past year and in which we hope to make further 
progress during the corning year, but which arc not perhaps very apparent 
from the papers connected with the Budget. 

Management and Organisation. 

23. The direct management of the Great Indian Peninsula Bail way was 
taken over on 1st July 1925 and a few months later the Allahabad-Jubbul- 
pur line was transferred from the management of the East Indian Rail- 
way to that of the Great Indian Peninsula Railway, thus completing the re- 
arrangement which had been earlier decided on. The amalgamation of 
the East Indian Railway and the Oudh and Rohilkband Railway and the 
transfer of certain portions of the combined system to the North Western 
Railway administration has resulted in consolidating our State-managed 
railways into self-contained units, each working in a well defined geogra- 
phical area. These administrations are now organised on a Divisional basis 
and the new organisation is already showing satisfactory results. It is 
interesting to note that several of the Company-managed railways are con- 
sidering the adoption of a somewhat similar organisation. 

Rates Advisory Committee. 

24. His Excellency the Viceroy recently announced in this Council the 
appointment of Sir Narasimha Sarma, the former distinguished Leader of 
this House, to bo the first President of the Rates Advisory Committee. 
It is expected that the Committee will be fully constituted very shortly, 
and thnt it will be able to take up Jts duties by the beginning of April. 



THE RAILWAY BUDGET FOIt 1926-27. 159" 

It is a matter for great satisfaction that we have corxle to an agreement 
with the Company-managed railways which enables us to " constitute this 
Committee because the Railway Board have consistently held the view 
that the work which it will undertake in investigating questions of railway 
rates will serve to present to the public a reasoned analysis of the system 
upon which railway charges in general are based, and thus help to meet 
in a large measure the criticism, at present mostly of an uninformed nature, 
whicli is so frequently levelled against the present system. We court the- 
fullest publicity in these matters, and it is the inherent difficulty in 
explaining the details of the problem to those who naturally only see one 
side of it, which has so often given rise to difficulties in the past in justify- 
ing what is being done by the railways. We also believe that the study 
and examination of the various rates problems which the Committee will 
no doubt be called upon to investigate will be of practical and construc- 
tive assistance to the railway administrations themselves in building up- 
rates structures on a scientific and generally understood basis. We, there- 
fore, look forward with confidence to the establishment of this body and 
the results of its labours. 

Health of Railway Slaff. 

25. One of our greatest preoccupations is concerned with the many diffi- 
cult questions which centre round the problem of the health and comfort 
of railway staff. I am aware that there is a, school of thought which pro- 
fesses to regard this problem as of subsidiary importance or even of no 
importance at all compared with the comfort of our clients the travelling 
public and are prone to read into any provision which we may make for 
the betterment of the conditions of the staff a necessary neglect of the 
passenger and his comfort. There are others who accuse us of wilful ill- 
treatment and a callous neglect of the interests of those who serve the rail- 
ways. Actually the subject is always before us and the railway administra- 
tions, and there are at present sitting committees of the Indian Railway 
Conference Association to consider, for instance, how the conditions of 
raiilway labour can best be brought into line with the obligations Assumed 
by India under the various International Labour Conventions. That sub- 
ject is a very complex one, and there is always a danger in generalising, 
but at any rate we have made a great deal of progress in the direction of 
complete conformity with the standards laid down, and I hope that the 
result of this committee work now being done will help to resolve some of 
the practical difficulties. But in the direction of improvement in health 
and surroundings there is much to be done, and during the last year we 
have had a senior administrative medical officer on special duty to study 
the problem on the North Western Railway. The object of his investiga- 
tions has been to devise a better organisation for medical treatment of the 
staff on that railway and for dealing with public health problems in railway 
settlements. We have his report now under consideration, and I hope that 
in the course of next year we shall be able to bring about the desired im- 
provement, for we are satisfied that improvement is necessary. The officer 
referred to has visited practically every railway in India and has made a 
careful study of the medical arrangements on each of them. His work has 
assisted in making it clear that a great deal has yet to be done in studying 
the incidence of sickness and disease amongst railway employe's, and apart 
from the obvious obligation to give these men adequate opportunities of 
treatment the subject has its commercial aspect in the loss of working time 
which at- present preventible disease entails. 



IfiU COUNCIL Ob' STATH. [ 18TII FKB. 1926. 

[Sir Clement Hindloy. | 

Timber Supplies. 

26. Another important subject on which we have been working is the 
improvement of supplies of indigenous timber for various classes of rail- 
way work. Last year we had an examination of the sources of timber 
supply for sleepers throughout India, and subsequently we had nn inquiry 
into the possibility of extended use of cheaper Indian timber in coach 
building. In both of these investigations the Forest Research Institute 
at Dehra Dun afforded us very valuable assistance as well as helping us 
with advice and supervision in connection with the sleeper treating plant 
which we have established in the Punjab. In furtherance of the object 
in view, namely, the use of indigenous timber to the fullest extent possible 
coupled with economical purchasing we have attached to our staff as a 
temporary measure an officer of the Imperial Forest Service who helps 
our purchasing officers, keeps our engineers and other users of timber in 
touch with local conditions of supply, and who will, I hope, afford useful 
help in exploring the uses of cheaper substitutes for the few timbers which 
have so long been regarded as the only ones suitable for railway worlc. 

Training of the Staff. 

27. The School of Transportation which we have started at Cliandausi 
has done good work during the year, and over 1,000 railway men, officers, 
upper subordinates, and lower subordinates, Indian, Anglo-Indian and 
European, selected mainly from the East Indian liailway and North- 
Western Railway, have attended for varying periods for courses of instruc- 
tion in railway duties. Junior officers and probationers from most of the 
railways have also been sen I for training. The accommodation at the 
school is rapidly becoming inadequate to the requirements of the upper 
\-ind lower subordinates from the area which it is designed to serve, and it 
will ba necessary in the early future to separate the senior classes and 
move, them to another centre in order to cope with the subordinate staff 
training. The object wo are aiming at is to make provision for courses of 
'training and refresher courses far all the staff who have duties in con- 
nection with train movement, and it is obvious that the full benefit of 
this scheme will not be attained until the school is equipped to deal with a 
sufficient yearly quota to enable all the staff in the area to attend within 
u period of a few years. For this purpose Chandausi as an area school 
will deal with the Northern Divisions of the East Indian Eailway and 
the Eastern Divisions of the North Western Eailway. The remainder of 
the East Indian Eailway staff are at present dealt with at Asansol where a 
similar school exists, but this will eventually be removed to Sahehganj 
mid suitably expanded. A similar area school is now being constituted 
at Lyallpur on the North Western Eailway, while the Great Indian 
Peninsula Eailway arc Arranging to establish one at Bina. 

As I have said, the time is approaching for the officers classes now at 
Chandausi including the probationers training to be moved to another centre 
where it will be possible to develop them on broader lines with the eventual 
-aim of establishing a Eailway Staff College for the training of the superior 
staff of various departments. We have been looking far a suitable site 
and there is now the possibility of obtaining one nt Dehra Dim. "^fa hope, 
'therefore, that in the near future we may be able to see the beginnings 



THE RAILWAY BUDGET FOR 1926-27. 161 

- of this new institution which, in my opinion, will be of incalculable benefit 
to our railways. 

Railway Accounts. 

28. In one of the matters on which we received healthy advice from 
Sir William Acworlh's Committee, namely, the re-organising of our accounts 

' on a commercial basis, it must be confessed that we have not made much 
progress, although we have made a beginning by introducing a new system 
ol compiling statistics with very great benefit to the work of all our depart- 
ments. Wo have further, with the assistance and the approval of the 
Auditor General and the Finance Department, undertaken an experiment 
on the East Indian Eailway in the direction of separation of accounts from 
audit. Our accounts however still bear the impress of many years of 
association with those of Government Departments of a purely administra- 
tive character, and I am very glad to say that it has at lust been decided 
to have them overhauled from top to bottom by a firm of commercial 
accountants of world-wide repute, who have great experience of railway 
accounting in Great Britain and America. In this wise decision I venture 
to hope that we have at length seen appreciation of tlio fundamental differ- 
ence between audit and accounting, and I trust that it will be the means 
of putting into the hands of both our administrative and executive officers 
accounts which will show them easily, and from day to day, the true com- 
mercial aspect of the various branches of work they control, while affording 
us the very great benefit of completely independent auditing of our accounts. 
I do not think I shall find any one to quarrel with the statement that 
accounts should be the servant and not the master of a commercial under- 
taking or with our determination to give effect to this principle in the 

w commercial business of railway management. 



CONCLUSION. 

29. I have earlier in my speech compared the position of the railways 
now with their position when they were reported on by Sir William 
Acworth's Committee and Lord Inchcape's Committee, and in concluding 
mv remarks I would like to draw attention again to this startling change. 
The railways are now paying their way. They are not only paying a satis- 
factory return on the capital invested, which in itself gives confidence in 
embarking on an extensive programme of new construction, but they 
are already building up reserves, although the process of rehabilitation, 
improvement and development goes on at a rate not thought attainable 
3 years ago. And lastly, while we believe they are meeting the trans- 
portation needs of the country more fully than ever before, they have 
been able to make a beginning in the reduction of their charges to the 
public for the commodity which they .sell. With this short summarv I 
feel that I can confidentlv leave the Budget to the friendly criticism 
of .this Council, but I should like finally to pay a tribute to the 
energy and ability with which the Agents and officers of the various 
railway administrations have approached the great problem of reconstruc- 
tion, as well as the loyalty and efficiency of the staff of all grades in carrying 
out their daily work in the service of the public and m the interests of the 
railway systems on which they serve,. 



ELECTIONS TO THE PANEL FOE THE STANDING COMMITTEE: 

ON EMIGEATION. 

THE HONOURABLE THE PRESIDENT: Nominations for election to the 
panel from which Members to the Standing Committee on Emigration will 
be nominated were receivable up to 12 noon to-day. The following Members 
have been duly nominated : 

The Honourable Mr. V. Eamadas Pantulu. 

The Honourable Mr. Phiroze C. Sethna. 

The Honourable Seth Govind Das. 

The Honourable Mr. P. C. Desika Chari. 

The Honourable Eai Bahadur Lala Earn Saran Das. 

The Honourable Saiyed Mohamed Padshah Sahib Bahadur. 

The Honourable Mr. K. C.. Eoy. 

The Honourable Eao Sahib Dr. U. Eama Eao. 

The Honourable Mr. Mahmood Suhrawardy. 

The Honourable Mr. Haroon Jaffer. 

As there are ten nominations and there are only eight vacqjicies on the 
panel, an election is necessitated unless two Members at least withdraw in 
the meantime. 

THE HONOURABLE RAO SAHIB DR. U. EAMA EAO : I beg to withdraw, Sir. 

THE HONOURABLE MR. MAHMOOD SUHEAWAEDY: I also beg to> 
withdraw. 

THE HONOURABLE THE PEESIDENT : Two Honourable Members having 
withdrawn their nomination, I am therefore in a position to declare the 
following Members duly elected to the panel : 

The Honourable Mr, V. Eamadas Pantulu. 

The Honourable Mr. Phiroze C. Sethna. 

The Honourable -Seth Govind Das. 

The Honourable Mr. P. C. Desika Chari. 

The Honourable Eai Bahadur Lala Earn Saran Das. 

The Honourable Saiyed Mohamed Padshah Sahib Bahadur, 

The Honourable Mr. K. C. Eoy. 

The Honourable Mr. Haroon Jailer. 



EESOLUTION RE APPOINTMENT OF A EOYAL COMMISSION TO 
INQUIEE INTO THE WOEKING OF THE INDIAN CONSTITUTION. 

THE HONOURABLE MR. PHIEOZE C. SETHNA (Bombay : Non-Muham- 
madan) : Sir, I beg to move the following Eesolution which reads thus : 

11 This Council recommends to the Governor General in Council to urge upon His 
Majesty's Government the appointment forthwith of a Royal Commission to investigate 
and inquire into the working pf the present Indian constitution and to formulate a 
scheme for the establishment of responsible government in India." ; 

( 162 ) 



ROYAL COMMISSION ON WORKING OF INDIAN CONSTITUTION. 168 

I need make no apology for bringing forward this Resolution, for the 
constitutional question is irrepressible and it is bound to press again and 
again- lor consideration until a permanent satisfactory solution is reached. 
More than five years have passed since the reformed constitution was in- 
troduced. The very first year of the meeting of the Indian Parliament was 
signalised by the adoption by the Legislative Assembly of a Resolution, the 
original of which was altered as suggested by Government themselves, and 
in its amended form it recommended a re-examination and revision of the 
constitution at an earlier date than 1929. Much water has flowed under 
the bridges since then, but the one most outstanding feature of the currents 
and under currents of thought during the last five years, has been a persistent 
demand for such further constitutional advance as will secure the goodwill 
and co-operation of all schools of political opinion in this country I mean 
all those schools which unitedly may be taken to represent the bulk of 
the Indian people and thereby lay the constitutional issue comparatively 
at rest. If this is done it will lead to the concentration of the energies and 
efforts of the chosen representatives of the people and other leaders upon 
the numerous problems of internal development and progress, which, owing 
to the overpowering pressure of the constitutional problem, have not been 
receiving and indeed, in the very nature of things, cannot receive, that 
measure of undivided and steady attention to which they arc entitled. The 
constitutional issue has thus loomed the largest on the political horizon of 
India. It has demanded the earnest attention of Government and of the" 
Indian Parliament in one form or another. Only last year in the Simla 
Session, the question came up in the form of an amendment to a Govern- 
ment Resolution moved in the Legislative Assembly, by the leader of the 
Swaraj Party, and in the then Council of State by myself. The different 
decisions of the two Houses on that amendment are well known to Honour- 
able Members. The Legislative Assembly adopted it by a very large 
majority which represented the unanimous view of the Swaraj, the Inde- 
pendent and the Liberal Parties. In this Honourable House, the amend- 
ment was rejected and the Government Resolution was adopted. 

Since the September Session, the Indian National Congress, the 
Muslim League, the Liberal Federation, the Non-Brahmin Conference, the 
Christian Conference and other Congresses and Conferences whose numbor, 
as has been remarked by a European writer, is legion, have mot at their 
annual sessions, and. we liave once more bad the considered views of 1he 
more important political bodies on the constitutional question. One notable 
and significant event in this connection has been the .open declaration by 
a section of the Swarajist Party a section by no means inconsiderable or 
uninfluential that they disapprove of the policy of obstruction nnd are in 
favour of pursuing what is called the policy of responsive co-opemtion which 
means nothing more nor less than the policy of co-operating with the Govern- 
ment in carrying out all such policies and measures as are not repugnant 
to reason or detrimental to the interests of the people. . . . 

THE HONOURABLE SIR DINSHAW WACHA (Bombay : Nominated Non- 
Official) : From their point of view. 

THE HONOURABLE MR. PH1EOZE C. SETHNA : Yes, each man has his 
own point of view. 

Now, Sir, the Resolution which I am moving has been brought forward 
in the light .ot all these circumstances. It has been framed in the light. 

B 2 



164 COUNCIL OF STATE. [18TH FEB. 1926. 

[Mr Phiroze C. Sethna.] 

first, of the history of the constitutional issue during the last five years, 
secondly, of the decisions of the Indian Parliament in the last Simla 
Session, and, thirdly, of the considered views which different sections of 
Indian opinion have expressed in their conferences held within the last 
six or seven weeks. With regard to this second circumstance, I am not 
blind to the significance such as it is of the decision reached by the pre- 
decessor of this Honourable House. After all, the Indian Constitution is 
bi-cameral and Indian opinion, as far as I know, is very largely in favour 
of its being and continuing to be bi-cameral. The decisions of this House 
are therefore entitled to as much consideration and weight as those of the 
Legislative Assembly. In this connection however I may be permitted to 
add that some of those Honourable Members in the last Council, who 
voted against my far-reaching amendment, expressed themselves in favour 
of the appointment of a Royal Commission before the statutory period and 
indeed my Honourable friend Mr. K. C. Roy moved an amendment 
recommending the appointment of a Royal Commission or any other suit- 
able agency not later than 1927. It is true he withdrew the amendment, 
but there is the important fact that such an amendment was moved, and 
further that it was supported by some of those who were not able to go 
the whole length with me. After these remarks which I have deemed 
necessary to make in order to clarify the issue and to enable this Honour- 
able House to see the question which I am submitting to its judgment in 
the proper perspective I shall turn to the Resolution itself. My Resolu- 
tion is a plea for the immediate re- examination and revision of the exist- 
ing constitution by a Royal Commission. In urging that plea and be- 
speaking the support of this House to my Resolution I wish to appeal to 
the intellect and reason of the House and of the Government. I shall 
scrupulously avoid all passion, bitterness of feeling, recrimination, all 
uncalled for and unnecessary attacks upon Government for their sins 
of commission or omission, real or fancied. I shall further eschew all 
considerations of sentiment except 'to the extent that the sentiment which 
is strong, which is persistent, which is entertained by varied or large 
sections of the community constitutes in itself a fact of great importance 
which reason ought not to brush aside as irrelevant nor statesmanship 
ignore as of no value. 

What, then, are my grounds for urging that the time has now come 
when the existing constitution of this country should be examined and 
revised, and that a Royal Commission should be immediately appointed 
for the purpose? I start with the position that it has been conceded by 
Government that there is no legal bar to the appointment of a Royal 
Commission for this purpose at any time before the expiry of the period 
of ten years fixed by the Government of India Act. We all know the 
statement made in such picturesque and arresting language by the Secre- 
tary of State that "Wise men are not the slaves of dates, rather are dotes 
the servants of sagacious men 11 . So far then the position stands beyond 
question. Starting from that point, T contend in the first place that the 
working of the constitution during the last five years and indeed the 
examination of the constitution by the Reforms Inquiry Committee, better 
known ae the Muddiman Committee, even within the limited terms of 
reference nuuje to it have clearly shown that the confltitnfion has rot 
succeeded in achieving the object witK which' it was established to the 



ROYAL COMMISSION ON WORKING OF INDIAN CONSTITUTION 

extent and in the manner expected. The constitution has failed not in 
the sense that the administration is not going on and going on as efficiently 
as before, not in the sense that the Legislatures are not working and 
that the Executives are at a standstill, but in the much higher sense that 
it has failed to give that measure of training in responsibility which 
was its avowed object and without which no real and continuous progress 
in r,he attainment of full responsibility is supposed, I think rightly sup- 
posed, to be possible. And it has failed to achieve this result, not for 
any fault on the part of the people, not on account of non-co-operation, 
not owing to any obstructive tactics of the Swarajists, but owing to the 
supreme fact that at its very inception and to a considerable extent in 
its very nature it was so conceived and devised that it could not have 
produced any better results. 

I concede, Sir, that training in responsibility is necessary before full 
responsible government becomes familiar to the people and can be worked 
by them "With a high degree of efficiency and a large measure 'of success. 
But in order thai such training might be acquired, the measure of res- 
ponsibility must not be stinted. It must be substantial, it must be 
real. It must not be an apology for liberty, not a liberty so hedged round 
with limitations and qualifications as to make it a mere camouflage or 
flimsy and unsubstantial in its nature or working. The responsibility which 
the present constitution lias granted in the domain of the provinces is 
of such y nature. And I say, therefore, it is utterly ill-calculated to give 
the electorates that . training in responsible government upon which 
insistence is laid. In the domain of the Central Government, indeed, where 
vital issues are decided there is an utter absence of responsibility. The 
constitution of the Central Government is, in fact, open to the same serious 
objections as were urged against the Congress League Scheme of, 1916 and 
to some extent against the Morley-MInto Reforms, all arising from an 
irremoveable executive which has to depend for support upon an elective 
majority and which in its turn, owing to its being excluded from respon- 
sibility, is naturally inclined to play the role of permanent opposition. 
Such a constitution cannot fulfil the ends it has in view and the sooner it 
is revised the better for all. 

My second ground for urging the early appointment of a Royal Com- 
mission to review and revise the existing constitution is that there is a 
general, I might say almost unanimous, strong and insistent demand for 
further constitutional advance. And I wish to emphasise the fact that 
this view that the time is now ripe for further constitutional advance is 
maintained not only by political parties or leaders, but also by those who 
have worked or have been working side by side with the Government 
either as Executive Councillors or Ministers. It is impossible for those 
who have closely studied the reports of the Local Governments on the 
working of the reformed oonstitution for the year 1924. which have been 
published alone: with the reports of the Beforms Inquiry Committee, not 
to come to the conclusion that a larsre, weighty and responsible opinion 
as ren resented by most Ministers and many Indian Members of the Execu- 
tive flnnnc ; ls strongly favours such further constitutional advance. The 
position in this matter hns been ablv exnresse^ hv the Honourable the 
of "Ponnapnl., himself n, Minister to the Madras Government and a 
of f.Tjfi non-Brahmin Party, a nnrtv the moderntion of whose political 
views is beyond . question and which has been most heartily co-operating 



166 COUNCIL OF STATE. [18TH FEB. 1926. 

[Mr Phiroze C. Sethna.] 

with the Government in working the constitution. He said in his speech 
at the non-Brahmin Conference held during last Christmas: 

"It is perfectly apparent that the most weighty, the most considered and the best 
informed opinion is in favour of an immediate advance in the political status of the 
country. Ministers and Indian Members of Councils almost without exception, in 
various Governments who have had actual experience of carrying on the administra- 
tion of the country, whoso knowledge of departmental difficulties and complications 
has certainly not been of a comparatively insignificant character, whose keenness for 
co-operative work with the authorities is incapable of doubt or suspicion, whose 
enthusiasm for the diarchic system of government when they assumed office is admitted, 
whose regard for Parliamentary conventions and, in particular for the opinion 
of the English Parliament is obvious, practically from every Presidency have given 
their opinion almost unanimously in favour of an immediate extension of the political 
status of the country." 

The same position has been reflected in the resolutions passed by 
most of the Conferences held during X-mas last. The All-India Muslim 
League which met at Aligarh has adopted a resolution demanding the 
.appointment of a Royal Commission without any delay, and this resolution 
was moved by Sir Ali Imam, an ex-Member of the Viceroy's Executive 
Council. The Liberal Federation has drawn up an outline of tHe reforms 
that should be introduced and also urged the appointment of a lioyal 
Commission, and the Federation was presided over by Sir iloropunt Joshi, 
who has just laid down the reins of office as Home Member of the Central 
Provinces Government. The non-Brahmins at their conference have 
demanded the immediate establishment of full provincial responsible 
government and of a measure of responsibility in the Central Govern- 
ment. The All-India Conference of Indian Christians which met at 
Calcutta also passed a resolution asking Government to appoint a Royal 
Commission and demanding immediate provincial autonomy and the in- 
troductior of responsibility in the Central Government. 

All these facts prove beyond doubt that, however much they may differ 
on other points, there is general agreement among the various political 
bodies in India that the investigation of the question of further constitu- 
tional reform should be immediately undertaken by a Royal Commission. 
Now, Sir, I put it to Government. Will they be justified in ignoring all 
those expressions of opinipn? Do they carry no weight with them? What 
effect will it have upon the Indian mind when it finds that all these 
expressions of opinion, this general and insistent demand for further consti- 
tutional advance, are ignored and flouted as of no account? I have said 
n't the outset that I want to appeal not to sentiment, but to the reason 
both of the House and of the Government. It may be that the Govern- 
ment think all these expressions of opinion and views to be wrong, that, 
in their judgment, no immediate revision of the constitution is justified, 
though it would seem from the reasons hitherto given by them whenever 
they havo opposed the demand for such revision, that their opposition is 
based not so much on the merits of the question as on the absence of a 
certain condition which they demand. 

But assuming for the sake of argument that in the considered opinion 
of the Government on the merits of the question the immediate revision of 
the constitution by a Royal Commission would not be justified we have 
here two different and conflicting opinions, and I trust the Government give 
us credit for the honesty of our view, iust as they expect that we sBouM 
give them credit for the honesty of their view. In this conflict of two 



ROYAL COMMISSION ON WORKING OF INDIAN CONSTITUTION. 167 

honest and sincere views what can be a better agency than a Royal Com- 
mission to decide the great issues involved? And then again supposing 
that the judgment of most Ministers, many members of Executive Councils 
and of these various public bodies as to the desirability of immediately 
.appointing a Royal Commission to investigate the question of further consti- 
tutional advance is swayed more by considerations of sentiment than of 
pure cold reason, the Honourable House will see that it is too big and 
gratuitous a supposition to make, is not that in itself a fact of great 
importance which the Government ought not to ignore? The Indian Gov- 
ernment claim to defer to Indian public opinion even when they think 
that that opinion is not quite correct or sound. This deference to public 
opinion is in fact claimed to be the basis of the Government and tEe 
.administration since the inauguration of the reformed constitution. Why 
should not Government then attach proper weight and importance to this 
demand for further constitutional reforms, a demand which has behind 
it the support of moderate, weighty, sober, influential responsible elements 
in society and refer the question to an independent tribunal such as a 
Hoyal Commission? Whether they consider the demand for an immediate 
revision of the constitution as based on reason, or on sentiment, pure and 
simple, or partly on sentiment and partly on reason, in any case itl is a 
demand which Government should not be so callous or indifferent as to 
pay no heed to whatever. Certainly the demand deserves a much better 
'fate than it has hitherto met with. 

But, Sir, the question urged against the immediate appointment of a 
Royal Commission is, and I am now coming to grips with the main ques- 
tion, that the appeal of Lord Birkenhead for co-operation, for goodwill 
and friendship has not evoked adequate and sympathetic response from 
political leaders in this country. I want to examine this point as fully 
and as frankly as I can. This same objection has been repeated by His 
Excellency the Viceroy in the speech he made at the opening of the Legis- 
lative, Assembly on the 20th of last month and ten days ago at the opening 
of this Council. I welcome that pronouncement and frankly I am not so 
disappointed with it as some critics evidently are. I wish to speak of it 
with the greatest respect, particularly as it may be taken as expressing 
and embodying the latest position of Government on this important ques- 
tion. Now, with great deference to His Excellency, I must say in the 
.first place that the attitude taken up by Government, as expressed in that 
pronouncement, appears to me to be somewhat vague. It is difficult to 
understand what exactly is meant and asked for. So far as working the 
constitution is concerned, the spirit of goodwill, friendship and co-operation 
shown by all the Legislatures during the first three years is acknowledged 
by all i even by Government themselves. 

During the last two years the same has been manifested by all the Pro- 
vincial Councils, except those of Bengal and the Central Provinces, and 
^even in these two refractory provinces, the situation has shown a decided 
improvement. The Bombay Swarajists have now declared themselves 
emphatically in favour of responsive co-operation. The improvement in 
the attitude of the Legislative Assembly in the direction of reasonable co- 
operation has been acknowledged by His Excellency himself. The attitude 
of the Swarajists too has undergone a change for the better. The leader 
of the Swarajist Party and one more of its stalwarts are now working in co- 
operation, the first* Pandit Motilal Nehru, on the Skeen Committee and 
the other, Mr. V. J. Patel, as the Speaker of the Legislative Assembly. 



168 COUNCIL OF STATE. [18TH FEB. 1926. 

[Mr. Phirozo C. Sethna, | 

Then there is a split in the Swarajist Party and the Swarajists in the 
Maharashtra in Bihar and in the Central Provinces have now openly aban- 
doned the policy of obstruction. It is true, the Indian National Congress 
which met at Cawnpore has passed a resolution to which objection might 
justifiably bo taken. Personally, I strongly deprecate that resolution and 
more particularly that part of it which speaks of civil disobedience. It is 
neither sound statesmanship nor wise political leadership to indulge in such 
futile and misleading and mischievous talk about civil disobedience. But 
in fairness to the Congress it must be pointed out that civil disobedience is 
held out as a remote mode of direct action to be resorted to when all other 
methods fail, and that too, as explained by Mahatma Gandhi, as an alter- 
native in utter exclusion of any method of violence. 

Such then is the present situation and T do contend that taken as a 
whole and on a close sympathetic and not hypercritical analysis it meets, 
essentially and substantially, with the condition put forward by Lord 
B.irkenhead and His Excellency the Viceroy. What more do the Gov- 
ernment want? Do they want that the Swaraj Party should dissolve itself 
arid openly declare that they are in the wrong? Arc Government going to 
nmko the whole country suffer for the sins, if any, of a single political 
party a party too, which is now divided against itself and which, in spite 
of its avowed policy and programme, has shown friendship and goodwill 
in a fair degree and really practised a considerable and increasing measure 
of co-operation ? Would it be fair to make the whole country suffer in that 
manner? Is the Swaraj Party everything and other parties nothing? 
IR not the heart of the nation thoroughly sound? Arid I am confident the 
Oovernment of India believe it to be sound. 

I am afraid, Sir, the Swaraj Party seems to be on the brain of Gov- 
ernment. Let them shake ofT that obsession which is evidently warping 
their judgment and drying up the sources of their large-hearted sympathy 
and let them not allow it to come in the way of India's progress. The 
Swarajist Party, if I understand it rightly, is nothing but the old Extremist 
Party. In every country there is and there will be a party of extremists, 
nyc even a party of extremist irreconcilables. Such a party existed before 
the introduction of the Morlcy-Minto Reforms, but that did not deter those 
two eminent statesmen from introducing reforms. It existed all the time 
of the Montagu-Chelmsford reforms but it did not deflect the late Mr. 
Montagu and Lord Chelmsford from the path of reform which they had" 
chosen. All these four statesmen had the courage to conciliate and rally 
all the sober elements in the country, and, so far as I can judge, they have 
certainly succeeded to a very appreciable extent. All .the frowns and threats 
of Extremism did not make them hesitate in the great task of conciliation 
and reform, and I for one believe that in the main their policies have been 
justified. 

Sir, I feel not the slightest doubt that if an announcement of the ap- 
pointment of a Royal Commission is now made, the ground would be cut 
from under the feet of Extremism at all events to some extent, and the forces 
of co-operation, of good-will and of friendship will not only be rallied, but 
they will also be strengthened both in numbers and influence, and above all 
they will be justified in the eyes of the Indian people. Mav I in this 
connection sav a few words to mv Swarajist friends? I do earnestly 
.appeal to them to reconsider their position in the lirrht of the fresh pro- 
nouncement of His Excellency the Viceroy. Let them not treat that 



ROYAL COMMISSION OX WORKING OF INDIAN CONSTITUTION. 

speech light-heartedly as of no account, let them give up any idea, if they 
have it at all, of throwing out the Budget, let them give every proof ot 
friendship and goodwill and judge of the Budget and of all the measures 
which Government may submit to their votes on their own merits. In 
other words, if I may say so, let them once at least stoop to conquer. I 
have no doubt that this new attitude will be justified but if not they can 
then go with a clean conscience to the electorates and tell them that they 
have done their best and that the onus now lies on Government and on 
Government alone. 

A minute ago I said I am confident the Government of India believe 
that the heart of India is sound. For a reflex of this opinion I will quote 
from recent utterances in England. Writing in the Sunday Times of 
London of a fortnight back from last Sunday Lord Meston observed: 

" Non-co-operation in its virulent form is dead and the European if he behaves 
reasonably is again welcome. Below the surface, trouble simmers as it has always done, 
but on the face of the waters there is little trace of the hurricanes which have been 
raging since 1919." 

ETe concludes by saying that there is nothing in tho situation to-day 
calling us to diverge from the course of politic.il development laid down six 
\enrs ago. Lord Meston was in India a few weeks ago and what he has 
written to the Sunday Time* is the iresult of what he has seen find lenrnt 
for himself, and it cannot be forgotten that but a few years ago he was him- 
self a member of the Government of India and he is bound to be in close 
touch with the principal officers of the Government of India to-day. The 
views he has expressed are therefore the views of our Honourable friends 
sitting on the opposite Benches. 

Take again the Prime Minister himself. Speaking at Sunderland on 

the 26th of last month he observed: 



" In India where our trade has not been wholly satisfactory in recent years, we 
find that the economic position has improved and extremist agitation has subsided. 
These facts are not wholly unconnected, but I rejoice in them and if the present 
indications hold good we may anticipate increased trade in that quarter." 

Mr. Baldwin does not know India nnd it is evident that the views he has 
expressed are those of the Secretary of State and of the Government of 
India. 

The House is familiar with the views? of Sir Frederick Whyte which he 
has expressed more than once so forcibly. He repeated them the other 
day at an interview he gave to an Australian journal. He said that although 
he thought that: 

" Indians have yet to prove that western institutions are appropriate to the East, 
he recognises at least that it is necessary to confer on them a great measure of 
responsibility." 

Sir Percival J?hillips who was in this citv a few weeks ac:o wrote from 
here to the Daily Mail to say that His Excellency Lord Beading has restor- 
ed India to quiet and prosperity. He has undoubtedly induced the Indians 
to cultivate a friendlier spirit. Practical sedition is almost dead. These 
must be his views after personal observation nnd also evidently from what 
he gathered from the Government of Inclin officials* themselves. 



'170 COUNCIL OP STATE. [18TH FEB. 1926. 

[Mr. Phiroze C. Sethna.] 

Just one more quotation and this time from a well known journalist 
Mr. J. A. Spender, late Editor of the Westminster Gazette from what he 
said but a week ago to a Calcutta audience of brother journalists : 

11 If a system was fundamentally vicious no time limit could be placed for making 
things better. If this Government were to say ' Behave like good boys and you will 
get something better ', the natural result would be to make people do the reverse. 
As between a public man and the public or a Government and its people, that Govern- 
ment attitude should not be taken up." 

May I be allowed to conclude with only one observation? His Excel- 
lency the Viceroy has spoken in eloquent and impressive language of win- 
ning the heart of England. May I not say that it should equally be the 
proud and pleasant task of England and of her august representatives 
here and at Whitehall to win the heart of India? I have suggested to the 
Swarajist leaders that they should stoop to conquer. May I not in the 
same way say that England, mighty as she is, should if need be even stoop 
to win the heart of India? Sir, I feel confident that the appointment of a 
Eoyal Commission just at this juncture will go a great way to usher in an 
era to use His Excellency's noble language " of more sympathetic under- 
standing, more widespread trust and more universal goodwill " and thereby 
to strengthen the foundations of the British connection in this country. 

THE HONOURABLE THE PRESIDENT : It may assist the Council if I 
indicate briefly the course which, I think, this debate should take. There 
are three amendments printed on the paper. Of these, two standing in 
the name of the Honourable Seth Govind Das are placed on the paper as 
alternatives. I may assure him at once that his first amendment is in 
order, and we may for the , purposes of the debate, therefore, ignore his 
second amendment. Of the two amendments that remain therefore, 
namely, that one and Hie first standing in the name of Mr. Chari, T regard 
the second amendment, that of the Honourable Seth Govind Das, from 
the point of view of the original Kesolution, as the more drastic. I ;*m 
therefore proposing to call the Honourable Seth Govind Das at once U 
move his amendment, and I think that the debate should confine itself 
to that until it has been disposed of. The two amendments are funda- 
mentally based on the same matter, that is to say, they both maKe 
references to two Eesolutions passed in another place. One amendment 
asks for a declaration of an announcement of a decision to take immediate 
steps to give effect to those Eesolutions. The other amendment asks for 
the appointment of a Royal Commission to formulate a scheme of respon- 
sible government to give effect to those Resolutions. I think, therefore,- 
that the Honourable Mr. Chari, if he wishes to move his amendment, 
should frame it as an amendment to that of the Honourable Seth Govind 
Das 

THE HONOURABLE SETH GOVINI> DAS (Central Provinces : General) : 
Sir, I rise to move the amendment which stands in my name. It reads 
thus : 

" This Council recommends to thf Governor General in Council to move His 
Majesty's Government to mako a declaration in the Parliament announcing 
its derision to take immediate stens to embody in 'the constitutional and 
administrative machinery of India tlio fundamental chunks asked for in 
the Resolutions passed hv the Legislative Assembly on 18th February, 1924 

and 8th September, 1925, .and to obtain the decision of His Majesty's 

Government thereon." 



ROYAL COMMISSION ON WORKING OF INDIAN CONSTITUTION. 171 

I move this amendment, Sir, on behalf of the Swaraj Party. There is a 
fundamental difference, Sir, between the Resolution moved by my Hon- 
ourable friend Mr. Sethna and my amendment. My friend Mr. Sethmi 
wants merely a Eoyal Commission, while we Swarajists, Sir, want a de- 
claration of (His Majesty's Government on the point. W.e Swarajist* 
have no faith in these Royal Commissions, because many such Royal 
Commissions have come and gone and the net result is nothing more nor 
less than an addition of a few lakhs of rupees to the poor taxpayer. To 
me it appears, Sir, that the main item in the national demand is for an 
announcement followed by a Round Table Conference. Unlike Australia 
iand South Africa, Sir, we arc a very old nation, and our history goes 
back to thousands of years. We have tried almost all the constitutions 
tnown to the human race ; we have our own traditions, and therefore, Sir. 
it will be doing a great injustice to us to inflict a constitution alien to our 
spirit upon us and then to blame us if it fails to work smoothly. There- 
fore the future constitution of India can only be settled by the true re- 
presentativej of the three hundred .millions of the people of India, and not 
by a few Britishers or .by a few members who are appointed on these Royal 
Commissions. I am surprised, Sir, to see that the Honourable Mr. 
$ethna is now moving a Resolution and is not sticking to his old Resolu- 
tion which he moved in this very House a few months ago. My Honour- 
able friend Mr. Sethna says, Sir, that he has brought forward this Resolu- 
tion in accordance with the public opinion of trie country. May I ask him, 
Sir, to point out which public body representing the real public opinion of the 
country has passed a Resolution merely asking for a Royal Commission? 

THE (HONOURABLE MR. PHIROZE C. SETHNA: All except the Swara- 
jists 

THE HONOURABLE SETH GOVIND DAS : No, Sir. I say no pubUc 
body has asked merely for a Royal Commission. The only public body 
which represents the real public opinion of the country is the Indian 
National Congress, and it has endorsed the Resolution which was passed 
en the 8th September in the Legislative Assembly. 

Almost every Indian who has studied the question has said that the 
present constitution of India is defective and that it should be re-examined. 
As my Honourable friend Mr. Sethna has just pointed out, the very first 
year of the introduction of the reforms, I mean in 1921, a Resolution was 
passed by the Indian Legislative Assembly asking for a revision of the 
constitution, and although that Resolution was accepted by the Indian 
Government, it was turned down by Lord Peel. In 1924 again, Sir, a 
Resolution demanding a Round Table Conference was passed by the 
legislative Assembly, and" what was the Government's reply to that 
'demand? GETis Majesty's Government in England only sanctioned a Re- 
forms Inquiry Committee with a very restricted scope, and therefore Ml 
the Swarm'ist Mombcrs, including Pnndit Motilal Nehru, had to declare 
that that Committee could not solve the problem of India. 

Then, Sir, my Honourable friend Mr. Sethna said that we Swara- 
jists are co-operating now and -that we have changed our policy. 

. Well, Sir, the Swarajists know better what they have done. I r,y 
that the Swarajists are not co-operating. Their view is that there is no- 
thing to co-operate with. What the Government want is merely co-opera- 
tion on one aide. Is such co-operation ever possible? If they want real 



172 COUNCIL OF STATE. [18TH FEB. 19261- 

[Seth Govind Das.|] 

co-operation they should also extend their hand, and when the hands ore- 
extended from both sides, then only can there be co-operation. The same 
thing was repeatedly said by our late leader Deshabhandu Chitta Ranj*n 
Das and the same thing has been Declared many times by our present 
leader Pandit Motilal Nehru. May I ask, Sir, why there has been non- 
co-operation? His Majesty's Government know the reply to this, and it 
is this, that we have no trust in the British policy. H we take a glance at 
recent history, do we find a complete and wholesale co-operation offered 
by any nation to their alien rulers? Did the Boers, Egyptians and the 
Irish ever co-operate with the British Government before getting full res- 
ponsible government? The answer is that not only did they not co-operate 
but they offered resistance and uncompromising resistance, Do the 
Government of India or His Majesty's Government want the same kind cf 
co-operation from us? Human nature is much the same whether it is- 
iin Europe, Africa or India. 

The Honourable Mr. bethua hus dealt at length with the failure of the 
present constitution and 1 need not say much on the point. That is the 
reason why we bwarajists have no faitii in tinkering with the constitution^ 
a bit hero and a bit there. That IB why, bir, wnen in September last 
Government moved a Resolution asking for the acceptance of the reac- 
tionary Reforms Inquiry Majority Report, the Swarajists brought forward 
a Resolution in Iho Mouse winch was passed by an overwhelming majority 
demanding a declaration of the policy ol His Majesty's Government. As 
ha,s been said by the Honourable Mr. Sethiia, that Besolution was en- 
dorsed b} all the public bodies of the country, by the Cawnpore session of 
the Indian .National Congress, by the Liberal Federation at Calcutta, and 
by many other public bodies. !N either the Hindus nor the Muhammadaus 
nor any other community in the country is against this national demand. 
Even the Anglo-Indians, if Colonel Gidney is to be taken as their spokes- 
man, are not satisfied with the present state of things. It is true that 
there are some communal organisations here and there wanting some 
special concessions for their community, but it does not mean that they 
are opposed to the national demand. Bightly or wrongly, there is an 
impression, Sir, that the landed aristocracy of the country is against the 
national demand. Let me hasten to correct "this impression. We land- 
holders are not opposed to responsible government. We are as keen on 
having full responsible government as any other community in India. In 
the lower House, when this Resolution was brought by the Honourable- 
Pandit Motilal Nehru, I supported it on behalf o! the landholders whom 
I had the honour to represent in that House, and my recent election to- 
this august House from the general constituency of the Central Provinces is 
proof positive that my constituency was not opposed to these views, because 
most of my present electors also belong to the same class. 

The amendment which I am moving to-day is only a request that tha 
Resolutions which were passed by the Legislative Assembly on the 18th 
February, 1924, and the 8th September, 1925, should be given effect to by 
f-Ke Government, f think. Sir, it is a mere mockery if the Government do 
not want to give effect to the Resolutions passed by such an overwhelming* 
majority in the popular House. If such a united and popular demand is 



ROYAL COMMISSION ON W01UUNG OF INDIAN CONSTITUTION. 173 

-treated in this way, may 1 be permitted to say, JSir, that the representa- 
tives of the popple will again have to adopt the policy of civil disobedience. 
I am not making any threat, Sir. I am only putting forward before this 
jHouse the true sentiments of the people in very very plain words. The 
last session of the Congress at Cawnpore rightly voiced the opinion of the 
country when it declared that the time has come for* the parting of the ways 
and now it is for England to choose whether she wants a peaceful and 
contented India or an India seething with disloyalty and disaffection and 
opposed to the British connection. In the history of nations, Sir, as in the 
history of individuals, a time for stock-taking comes, when decisive steps 
havt* to be taken, and never before in the history of the British nation, 
since 1774, has such a time come. The whole world is watching how 
England solves the problem of India. It will not be possible for England 
to say that this is only a domestic affair between England and India, 
because, one-fifth of the population of the world is concerned here and the 
future peace and prosperity of the world depends on the solution of the 
Indian question. It was the moral sense of America which brought the 
Irish people their Free State constitution and perhaps brought freedom to 
Egypt too, and it will be the same moral sense which will decide the con- 
nection between India and England. Will His Majesty's Government 
have courage and foresight to declare their policy before it is too late? Let 
us wait and see. With these words, 1 Sir, I move my amendment and I 
have full hope that the Honourable Mr. Sethna will accept my amend- 
ment because it is substantially the same as the amendment which he 
moved in this very House in September last. 

THE HONOURABLE MR. P. C. DESIKA CHAKI (Burma : General) : Sir, 
I formally move an amendment to the amendment proposed by the Hon- 
ourable Seth Govind Das. Mv amendment, as an amendment to the pro- 
position just moved by the Honourable Seth Govind Das, will be ns 
follows : 

11 That for the words ' t$ make a declaration in the Parliament announcing dts 
decision to take immediate steps to embody in the constitutional and administrative 
machinery of India the fundamental changes asked for * the following words be 
substituted, namely : ' to appoint forthwith" a Royal Commission or other suitable 
agency to formulate a scheme for the establishment of responsible government in 
India in accordance with the recommendations contained V 

The second portion of my amendment is that the words "and to obtain 
the decision of His Majesty's Government thereon" be omitted. Before I 
formally place this proposition before this House and before I deal fully 
with this amendment, T should like to make a few observations as regards 
the position which T wish to lay before the Council for acceptance. Sir, I 
am a student of constitutional history, and as a student of constitutional 
historv I tried to understand the origin and growth of all constitutions. I 
"have found that in the ronstitutional history of Great Britain and her 
r Colonies and of all countries which have full responsible government, at 
one stage or another a condition of things takes place which wo find here 
in In^ia to-day. In matters of detail it may be somewhat different, there 
are different, aspects of it; hut all the same we have all the difficulties 
which are pointed out to us when we ask for a substantial form of respon- 
sible erovernment. I find that in all countries parliamentary institutions 
preceded the unification of the nation. That was the case in England. 
"That was the case in several Continental countries. The fitness for respon- 
sibility, the full attainment of nationality and all those things do not pre- 
cede parliamentary institutions, institutions in the real parliamentary 



174* COUNCIL OF STATE. [18TH FEB. 1926. 

[Mr. P. C. Desika Chari.] 

sense with an Executive fully responsible to the Legislature. We always 
find that there were elements in those countries which would be very good 
arguments for not introducing this element of responsibility in the govern- 
ment of those countries. I wish to preface my remarks in this way be- 
cause, as my friend the Honourable Mr. Sethna pointed out, it is not a 
matter which has to Be decided purely on sentiment. It is more a question, 
of reason ; and I beg to add that sentiment also has to be taken into account. 
.1 have closely watched the attitude of British statesmen from the very 
beginning ever since the days of Lord Macau! ay who advocated the intro- 
duction of a western system of education in India. Those statesmen, I 
take it, were fully aware of the consequences of the steps which they 
boldly advocated. They knew that the introduction of a western system 
of education would lead sooner or later to a demand for responsible insti- 
tutions. But they were far-seeing statesmen and they never doubted that 
they should in time have to consider the desirability of introducing the 
element of responsibility in the Government of India. They knew the de- 
mand would come sooner or later and they were watching for the oppor- 
tunity when that demand should come, and they took it for granted that 
when that demand was made it would be an indication that the people 
were prepared to undertake the responsibility of representative govern- 
ment. They never thought it must be subjected to a series of tests or that 
it must be subjected to the tests on the linos of the question which is being 
put to us now "Show us that you understand representative institutions f 
Show us that you understand responsibility ! Show us that you can dis- 
charge fully and effectively the duties of administrators if this principle of 
government is introduced in this country! 11 They never thought these 
questions ought to be put. But, unfortunately, we are not living in the 
days of those great statesmen, those far-seeing statesmen, who only thought 
there ought to be a demand for^it to be fully conceded, who thought the 
demand as and when made ou^ht to bo met straightaway without delay 
or excuse by the grant of responsible government. Now as things went 
on I find in the history of the Indian constitution that successive British 
statesmen wavered. There was a tendency to go backwards and forwards; 
there was a vacillating tendency.. No doubt as a result of this we have 
had several Royal pledges, in 1857, 1887, 1898, 1906, and lastly we have 
had the pronouncement of 1917. All these things show that latter-day 
statesmen never wanted to place the constitution of India on the same foot- 
inc: as the earlier British statesmen who were more far-seeing in their out- 
look. We know how these pledges have been kept. We know the effect 
of those pledges. All the same they are there as distinctive landmarks, I 
take it. In 1861 the principle of associating the people of India in the 
government of India was recognised and in the Act of 1892 
the principle of allowing the people of India to choose their own 
representatives was acknowledged. These are two important land- 
marks. Instead of conceding it the moment there was a demand 
for representative institutions they went on giving little by little. I 
only refer to these things for the purpose of showing that it is too late in 
the dav to meet our demand in the fashion in which it is met to-day. We 
are told "Show us that representative institutions are quite suitable to 
you ; show us by the working of the Act and by actual administrative ability 
that you are fit to undertake responsibility." That brings me to the pre- 
sent Government of India Act. What have we got in it? There is the 
Preamble which has been a battle ground ever since the Act was enacted. 
It is not necessary for me to go into the merits or demerits of the question 



ROYAL COMMISSION ON WORKING OF INDIAN CONSTITUTION. 175' 

from the point of view of the purely constitutional lawyer. It will serve 
no purpose because the Preamble is there and we have to face it. It may 
be in conflict with the general principles and general rights of Indians 
as a nation, but it serves no useful purpose to question the Preamble. Let 
us face the facts; let us face the reality. The Act according to all accounts 
is unsuitable in various respects. We shall see what the Act is. It merely 
gives representation, a larger measure of formal representation, partial res- 
ponsibility and a wide scope for criticism. From the working of such ua 
Act no conclusion can be drawn. It a proper share of responsibility had 
been given to the representatives I mean if people had been given an 
opportunity to work the reforms in a practical manner it would be differ- 
ent. My Honourable friend Mr. Sethna said we must have training in res- 
ponsibility before we can -ask for responsible government. There I join 
issue with my Honourable friend. I say no person can feel the sense and 
weight of responsibility unless and until he is shouldered with responsibility. 
Before responsible government is given in the proper way how can you test 
whether a person is fit to shoulder responsibility, whether he is in a position 
to discharges that responsibility? We have a half-hearted attempt to deal 
out some kind of responsibility in the Provinces, and we know that in all 
these measures the representatives of the people were considerably handi- 
capped and could not show fully what they were capable of understanding 
and feeling a sense of responsibility. The Act gave plenty of scope for 
criticism, and the representatives of the people having been brought toge- 
ther they had to do something. They found they had not very much to do 
in shouldering responsibility, and they did exactly what any opposition in 
a Government conducted on pnrty lines would have done. From the 
speeches that arc made in the Assembly and in the Councils we do not 
find much of a difference though there may be sonic difference in details 
between methods here and the methods adopted in Parliaments of coun- 
tries having fully responsible government. When there is wide scope for 
criticism, when people are not allowed to. feel their responsibility and where 
they have not to shoulder any responsibility, it is but natural that they 
should make the fullest use of the scope for criticism that is given to them 
without any real share in the working of the constitution. 

Then there is a further test of responsibility which was a part of the 
scheme of the Government of India Act, and that is dyarchy. Dyarchy, I take 
it, is an artificial and ingenious device to test our capacity as to how we are 
-able to feel the sense of responsibility under the most trying conditions. The 
test was one which it was almost impossible for any person to pass suc- 
cessfully. But I take pride in the fnct that our people, even under the most 
trying conditions which dyarchy brought in, were able to show that they 
are capable of realising fully the responsibility of conducting constitutional 
government with responsibility attached to it. I take pride in the fact that 
the province of my birth, Madras, and the province of my adoption, Burma, 
have not only passed these tests in dyarchy but have done so with credit 
and distinction. I would also say that the remaining provinces of India 
have also succeeded in this test of dyarchy in a greater or less degree. 
lYou may say: "There is Bengal; there is the Central Provinces." Yes; 
there are those provinces; and the view I take of the working of the con- 
stitution in those provinces is this : that they have understood dyarchy and 
they. have, understood the elements of responsibility involved in carrying 
out dyarchy and they have further had the courage to show in the practi- 
cal working: of it, the unworkftbility of dyarchy in responsible inflfiitutions. 
That is what has happened. From the elements of responsibility that have 



176 COUNCIL OF STATE. [18TH FEB. 1926. 

[Mr. P. C. Desika Chari.] 

been introduced, under the present Government of India Act, judged from 
the working of that Act during all these years, 1 can say with confidence 
and without fear of contradiction, that the people have shown that they 
are capable of realising their responsibility and it is not necessary to go 
further to test the capacity of Indians for realising responsibility because, 
as I have already stated, responsibility can only be tested if people are 
shouldered with it to see if they are in a position to feel the weight of their 
responsibility of carrying on the administration 

THE HONOURABLE TIIE PRESIDENT: The Honourable Member has 
.exceeded his lime limit. I must ,ask him to bring his remarks to a close. 

THE HONOURABLE MR. P. C DESLKA CHARI : I shall, Sir. As regards 
my amendment 1 need not deal at very great length with it. The amendment 
merely comes to this, that for the Royal Commission I want to say Royal 
.Commission or other suitable agency. Personally, 1 am not opposed to 
.a Royal Commission being appointed; but in order" to make it wider and 
.to make it possible for the Resolution to be acceptable to a larger number 
..of people I have proposed this. There is no harm in this. So long as 
.an agency is appointed which would consider the various aspects put forward 
-by the 'respective leaders of political thought, it does not matter whether 
it is a Royal Commission or .any other agency, so long as it is a suitable 
agency, which would be appointed by Parliament or by His Majesty's 
Government, to find out actually the views of the respective parties. So 
long as there is a chance of the case of all parties being heard fully 
before that agency there can bo no objection to the form of agency. I 
believe there is no objection to make the Resolution as wide as possible. 
As regards the other amendment, I have brought in the Resolutions of 
tho Assembly for this purpose 

THE HONOURABLE THE PRESIDENT: I am afraid I cannot allow the 
Honourable Member to start now on the Resolutions of the Legislative 
Assembly. Ho has exceeded his time in discussing matters which are 
not directly connected with his amendment, and I am afraid I cannot 
allow him to go back to his amendment now. 

The Council then adjourned for Lunch till Half Past Two of the Clock. 



The Council re-assembled after Lunch at Half Past Two of the Clpok, 
-the Honourable the President in the Chair. 



THE HONOURABLE MR. V. RAMADAS PANTULU (Madns: Non- 
Muhammarlnn) : I wish to intervene in this debate at this early stnge in 
order to state what the attitude of the Swarai Party is towards this Resolu- 
tion I know that I cannot contribute anvthine^ to the discussion on the 
merits of the Resolution for the arguments have been repeated .... 

THE HONOURABLE SIR ALEXANDER MUDDIMAN : T wish the Fonour- 
nble Member would raise his voice. I cannot hear one word of what he 
is saying. 



ROYAL COMMISSION ON WORKING OP INDIAN CONSTITUTION. 177 

THE HONOURABLE MR. V. RAMADAS PANTULU-. I desire to inter- 
vene in this debate at this early stage in order merely to state what the 
Attitude of the Swaraj Party is towards the Resolution, for I know that 
I cannot contribute much to the merits of the discussion for the arguments 
have been repeated perhaps for the hundredth time for and against it. 
The Swaraj Party is accused of inconsistency and impracticability in its 
attitude towards constitutional reform. I repudiate these charges most 
emphatically. Ever since the reforms were adumbrated in 1919, genuine 
public opinion in this country and the Indian National Congress have 
condemned them unequivocally as being unsatisfactory, inadequate and 
disappointing; in fact, they were considered to be so illusory as to induce 
^the Congressmen not to seek election to any of the reformed Councils 
during their first term. But our abstaining from entering the Councils 
was taken advantage of in order to show that the constitutional machinery 
was running very smoothly and that there was a good case made oufr 
for prolonging if not perpetuating that system. The Swarajists therefore 
made up their minds to enter the Councils in order to show up this pre- 
tension and to demonstrate the utterly unworkable and sham character 
of the reforms. We firmly believe that the so-called partial responsibility 
in the provinces with an irresponsible executive is an utterly unworkable 
scheme. The responsibility of the Government of India to the British Parlia- 
ment and to the Secretary of State and their irresponsibility to the people 
of this country and to the Central Legislature nullified the effects of 
any reform scheme however well it might be conceived. So, our repre- 
sentatives as soon as they entered the reformed Councils in 1924 took 
the very earliest opportunity afforded to them to state their case and 
formulate their demand. That demand was acceded to by the Assembly 
and T have no hesitation in calling that the demand of the country. I do 
so with greater confidence to-day for the Indian National Congress, which 
represents the best political opinion in this country and which is tho 
most representative political body, has endorsed that demand in a Resolu- 
tion which was carried unanimously at the recent session of the Cawnpore 
Congress. That resolution is as follows : " 

" This Congress adopts on behalf of the country the terms of the settlement 
offered to the Government by the Independent and Swaraj Parties of the Assembly 
by tho Resolution passed on the 18th February 1924." 

Our demand of the 18th February 1924 led to a secret departmental inquiry 
which was followed up by an open inquiry by the Muddiman Committee, 
and when tho Government tabled a Eesolution to give effect to the recom- 
mendations of the majority of that Committee, we brought forward an 
amendment to reitcra.to. our demand. That amendment was, no doubt, mov<Vl 
by .Pandit Motilal Nehru as he was the leader of the largest non-official 
party in the Assembly, but it was supported by all sections of non-officials 
in that House and it was carried by a large majority. It subsequently, 
appeared, from comments in the. Press, that outside the Assembly also 
ev.ery section of politicians welcomed it as being a legitimate, reasonable 
ahd proper demand. In this House my Honourable friend Mr. Sethna 
and myself moved a. similar amendment, though naturally it shared a 
different fate, in September 3925. I regret that my Honourable friend, 
Mr. Setluin, has , to-day contented himself with merely asking for a Royal 
,Coirtmission. But,, however, so far as we 'Swarajists, are concerned, nothing 
has happened in the interval to ma-ke ua change our attitude. It is said 
in some quarters that the demand of September 1925 was purposely pitched 



178 COUNCIL OF STATE. [18TH PEB. 1926. 

[Mr. V. KamadtLfi Pantulu.] 

in a lower key as the earlier one was found to be impracticable and that 
the time has now come to realise that the second demand was equally 
impracticable and therefore it ought to be lowered when a third demand 
is made. I must submit that this is an entire misleading of both the 
demands. 1 shall only state in a word what the effect of those demands is. 
It is true that we stated that our goal was full responsible government. Even 
the Government of India Act says so. I do not think that there is any 
need to quarrel over that. After stating that, we said that we are willing 
that our national claims may be examined by a suitable agency in which 
the varied interests which are involved in the momentous question of self- 
go vernment are properly represented. We did not ask for Swaraj being 
tied up in a bag and handed over to us, as was very aptly pointed out 
by Pandit Motilal Nehru in the Assembly. We never burEeci an investiga- 
tion; we nev.er burked an inquiry. The only thing that we wanted was 
that the agency should be a suitable one and that certain preliminariee 
should be conceded. That was the attitude we took up. Then in the 
second demand we reiterated our first one in express terms, and stated 
that there ought to be some minimum agreement before we could negotiate 
for the settlement of a suitable scheme by mutual understanding. The 
main point in the second demand is this. We say that unless the revenues 
of India are vested in the Government of India and administered bv a 
responsible Central Legislature, there cannot be any responsibility in the 
administration, and that no other change except this will meet the require- 
ments of the situation. We maintain that, unless a declaration is made 
in Parliament, by His Majesty's Government of its intention to embody 
in the constitution of India this fiindament.il change, it would not be much 
use to negotiate with the Government for ,a,n honourable settlement. That 
is the attitude we took. After the necessary declaration was made, all 
that we said was we were willing that other questions might be investigated 
by any suitable agency. May I ask what there is which is impracticable 
or impossible in either of these demands? So our position remains to-day 
precisely the same as it was in 1924 and 1925. The very fact that my 
Honourable friend Mr. Sethna moved tne very same jimendment as the 
Honourable Seth Govind Das moved to-day shows that Mr. Sethna did 
not then consider thcit amendment as ruling out a Eoyal Commission from 
our contemplation. There is no charm in a Eoyal Commission. Any 
agency will be equally good provided certain pre-requisite conditions are 
satisfied. If we are satisfied that there is a genuine change of heart on* 
the part of Government, and if there is any .indication that we are likely 
to get what we are aiming at by a Boyal Commission, we Swarajists have 
certainly no objection to it. I do not understand my Honourable friend 
Seth Govind Das to say that he does not want a Royal Commission. He 
said ho had no faith in a Eoyal Commission. As a matter of fact, we have 
no faith in many of these things. But if there is going to be any indication 
of a change of heart on the part of Government, if a Eoyal Commission 
is going to give us the kind of thing we want, or if we know that the 
terms of reference or the personnel and other things are so satisfactory 
as to inspire confidence in our minds, we should be certainly willing to 
co-operate with this agency. That is the attitude that we take; but I 
may at once state that any Eesolution for the appointment of a Boyal 
Commission without any definition of its scope or without any indication 



ROYAL COMMISSION ON WORKING OF INDIAN CONSTITUTION. 179 

of the basis on which it is to formulate its proposals for further constitu- 
tional advance will not be acceptable. At the same time we reserve to 
-ourselves the right to reconsider our position, and to decide whether to 
co-operate or not to co-operate with any agency when it comes into existence. 
That is our attitude, Sir, towards this proposal for a Royal Commission. 

Now, Sir, I have very briefly to answer two objections which are brought 
against the Swarajists. They are both based upon two different portions of 
the Preamble to the Government of India Act. The first objection is based 
upon the portion of the Preamble which says: "that the advance is to be 
by successive stages of which the Parliament will be the sole judge ", and 
we are told that it would be impossible for us to ask for any other agency 
or for any other mode of settlement except with the intervention of the 
Parliament. Our short and brief answer to this is, we consider that the 
Preamble is absolutely wrong. It is an insult to our national self-respect. 
According to us, the only test of fitness for self-government is national self- 
consciousness and self-determination. The Government of India Act is 
one of the many pieces of legislation passed by the British Parliament, and 
I do not believe that any special sanctity attaches to it any more than to 
any other Act. Our claim is that the Preamble along with the Act ought 
J to be repealed. Therefore, it is no use to confront us with a recital in a 
document to which we take very serious exception. 

Then the second objection is based upon that portion of the Preamble 
which says: " Whereas the action of Parliament must be guided by the 
co-operation received from those on whom new opportunities of service 
will.be conferred ". With regard to this demand for co-operation, I will 
make two respectful submissions. If the co-operation that is demanded 
-of us consists of asking us to work the unworkable provisions of the Govern- 
nicnt of India Act, I am afraid the Government are asking for the moon. 
'We are fortified in our view that many of the provisions of the Act are 
unworkable by the mass of the voluminous evidence which was recorded 
by the Muddiman Committee. Ministers who had faith in the reforms and 
who went into the Councils with the determination to work them to the 
best of their ability have declared that the Act was unworkable. And after 
their evidence and after the general consensus of opinion in the country 
<on the part of various political bodies, it is useless now to tell us that it is 
still workable and that we should work it. We have made our position 
clear time and again and it is no use asking us to work Dyarchy. But if 
'the co-operation that you want us to extend consists in a change of heart 
and the attitude of the Swarajists towards Government and their willingness 
to participate in the beneficent .activities of Government, I claim that we 
'have given ample evidence of our co-operation in the past, and I assure 
you, Sir, that in the future we are willing to pursue such a policy. Desha- 
bandhu C. B. Das in his Faridpur speech has extended the hand of honour- 
able co-operation and fellowship if the Government desire to grasp it. 
'Our leader Pandit Motilal Nehru every day also extends the hand of 
'fellowship and co-operation to the Government from his place in the 
Assembly, "but I find that it is not grasped. That is the difficulty. And 
more than all this, more than Pandit Motilal Nehru and Deshabandhu 
Das, the Indian National Congress has declared in unequivocal terms that 
if there is a right gesture from the Government, if there is a genuine change 
of Tieart on the part of Government, .the people can co-operate with the 
Governijnent. 

o 2 



180 COUNCIL OF STATE. [18TH FEB. 1926. 

[Mr. V. Bamadas Pantulu.] 

Then my Honourable friend Mr. Sethna referred to the Resolution 
which spoke of Civil disobedience. But I will refer to another portion 
which runs thus : 

" The Congress is also of opinion that the guiding principle in carrying on political 
work shall be self-reliance in all activities which make for the healthy growth of the 
nation and resistance to every activity governmental or other which would impede 
the nation's progress towards Swaraj." 

Now, 1 ask, is that not honourable co-operation? If that is not, what 
else can be? An absolute surrender to the Government's demand to co- 
operate with them without their co-operating with us is certainly not 
honourable co-operation. As for Civil disobedience, I will say only one 
word. As an ultimate resort, it is true that the Congress pronounced that 
that was the only legitimate weapon, that was under the inspiration of the 
great man Mahatma Gandhi who ruled out all violence. He said that for a 
subject people, if it is oppressed and if the foreign bureaucracy impedes 
progress, the' ultimate weapon was civil disobedience. The Congress accept- 
ed it. We are accused of want of constructive talent. May I ask my 
Honourable friend Sir Alexander Muddiman to place himself in our position, 
and to suggest, if he were a Congressman, what weapon he would place 
in our hands. Let him take up constructive statesmanship in his hands. 
Let him for a minute suppose that he is guiding the deliberations of the 
Indian National Congress. What advice will he give to a disarmed nation 
in order to win liberty, if not civil disobedience? If he can suggest am 
alternative, and if the Honourable Mr. Sethna can suggest his alternative, 
we will certainly take them. But we want some alternative, because a 
nation struggling for liberty ought to have some weapon for attaining that 
liberty. They ought to be really glad that resort to violent methods which 
is tried in the West is tabooed by the wisdom of those who are at the helm 
of affairs in the Indian National Congress. Therefore, Sir, the two objec- 
tions that are raised against a further constitutional advance on the lines 
of the demand of the Swarajists, namely, that the responsibility rests with 
the Parliament and that co-operation has not been forthcoming are not 
real. I would characterise them as mere inventions to obstruct our pro- 
gress. That is the attitude that is taken by Government. I once more beg 
to reiterate our attitude towards this question. We have not ruled out any 
agency by which further investigation can be made towards constitutional' 
advance. All that we want is a genuine indication of a change of heart on 
the part of the Government and some guarantee that progress on the lines 
on which we wish to achieve it is forthcoming. If it is forthcoming, there 
is no particular objection to a Royal Commission, nor is there any particular 
charm in it. We Swarajists are not prepared to accept any agency un- 
conditionally without its scope being defined or without some indication 
of our demand being complied with. With these words, Sir, I heartily 
support the amendment moved by the Honourable Seth Govind Das. At 
the same time, I assure my Honourable friend Mr. Sethna that we do not 
take an attitude hostile towards his Resolution, although we cannot approve 
of it in its present form. 

THE HONOURABLE SIR ALEXANDER MUDDIMAN (Home Member): 
Sir, I take it that it is your desire that the debate should now proceed 
merely on the amendment and the amendment to the amendment. I shall 



ROYAL COMMISSION ON WORKING OP INDIAN CONSTITUTION. 181 

therefore confine myself strictly to the amendments and to the speeches 
which have been made on them. 

" Two Voices are there; 

One is of the sea, 
One of the mountains; 

Each a mighty Voice." 

Had I been told that the voice which spoke for the Swarajist Party 
from behind me belonged to the same party as that of the gentleman in 
front of me to whose speech I have just listened, I confess 1 should not 
have been able to believe it. They seemed to me as different in terms 
as they are different in argument. My Honourable friend Seth Govind 
Das's amendment runs as follows: He desires that we should recommend 
to His Majesty's Government to make a declaration in Parliament announc- 
ing its decision to take immediate steps to embody in the constitutional 
and administrative machinery of India the fundamental changes asked for 
in the Resolutions moved in the Legislative Assembly on the various dates 
he specifies. What were those Resolutions? They were, with a few minor 
reservations, for complete responsible self-government. We were invited 
to go home and say, " You should now scrap the Government of India 
Act. scrap the Preamble which they dislike, scrap any trials that have 
been made, and with a stroke of the pen grant responsible self-government, 
or rather say that you will do it." Now, two gentlemen have spoken on 
that amendment and they have used very different arguments in support 
of it. I will turn first of all to the Mover of the amendment. He told 
me that he spoke for the Swaraj Party. The Swaraj Party seems to have 
ttwo voices in this House .... 

THE HONOURABLE MR. RAMADAS PANTULU : No, Sir. 

THE HONOURABLE SIR ALEXANDER MUDDIMAN : Two very different 
voices. Who is speaking for the Swaraj Party? Who is the representative 
in this Chamber of that Party which looms so largely in another place? Is 
it the Honourable Seth Govind Das who has moved the amendment or my 
Honourable friend who had an amendment on the paper which he did not 
move? That, Sir, is a matter for consideration, and I await an answer. 
What did the Mover of the amendment say? He said he had no faith in 
a Royal Commission. He was not for a R/oyal Commission. He distrusts 
t)i em. That was not the language used by my Honourable friend opposite. 
He said nothing of the kind. He seemed to me .to approach the question 
from a different attitude. The Resolution does not ask for any preliminary 
inquiry or for any preliminary steps. We are to take this action without 
any preliminary steps at all, and yet, in his argument, what did my Hon- 
ourable friend say? He said, " You must have a Round Table Conference 
attended by representatives of the 320 millions." Is there anything in 
his Resolution about 320 millions or a Round Table Conference? He told 
us that he does not have faith in Parliament. He does not want to go to 
Parliament. He would regard anything that came . from that source as 
suspicious. That is not again the language used just now. Before Gov- 
ernment can deal with arguments of this kind, said to be addressed in the 
name of the same Party, it will be necessary for that Party to get rather 
closer under its own umbrella than it seems to be at present. Sir, we 
saw a remarkable instance, which is very much what is going on here, in 
another place on the Resolution in September. There we saw a Resolu- 
tion dubious in its terms, possibly intentionally dubious in its terms, in- 
tended to bring under agreement or supposed agreement very dissimilar 



182 COUNCIL OF STATE. [18TH FEB. 1926. 

[Sir Alexander Muddiman. ] 

opinions. What happened when the discussion took place? Nothing was 
clearer than that speakers were putting forward views which were almost 
fundamentally different. Although they gave their adherence to the Reso- 
lutions which, if very carefully looked into and very carefully interpreted, 
might possibly bring those views together, yet the arguments used and the 
considerations put forward were entirely different. That is what is hap- 
pening to-day. This amendment is moved by a Member said to be a 
Member of the same Party and is supported by a Member said to be of 
the same Party for entirely different reasons and in an entirely different 
way. My friend opposite says that he is a reasonable man. He is willing, 
given certain conditions by means of the holding out of the hand of friend- 
ship, to accept without quarrel gifts from Parliament. Indeed, if I may 
say so, that is the only way he can attain any of his desires. Ho sits here, 
as I sit here, entirely owing to the decree of the English Parliament and 
the sooner that is grasped, the better it will be for all of us. We have 
heard a good deal of the fact that no threat is used, but what did my Hon- 
ourable friend behind me say? He said, " We tire not co-operating. We 
do riot desire to co-operate." My friend in front of me said, " We are 
co-operating. We desire to co-operate. We wish to co-operate." Sir, 
those are words T heard very willingly, and I congratulate my Honourable 
friend on the straightforward view that he has taken, but they are dis- 
crepant to the words I heard from behind me. The Honourable Seth 
Govind Das observed that he had no trust in the British policy. I took 
his words down. He has no trust in the British policy. I did not hpar 
my Honourable friend opposite say that he. had trust in the British policy. 
I will just remark that he did not say that he had distrust 'in the British 
policy. Then T was told that of course the final right of every country, of 
every people, if it does not get what it wants is civil disobedience. On 
the one hand, it was used in the form of a threat; on the other, as the 
last resort of a desperate people. There is a wide distinction undoubtedly 
between those two propositions ; but let me tell both my Honourable friends 
that civil disobedience will not remain civil disobedience, it will become 
very uncivil disobedience in a very short time. It has become so in the 
pnst, it will become so in the future, and those who use words of that kind 
will do well to weigh the consequences of their words. 

Sir, this particular amendment I am bound to oppose on behalf of Gov- 
ernment. It was opposed on a previous occasion in this House. It was 
opposed in another place. This House rejected it. I trust this House with 
its usual consideration, with its usual weight of judgment, with its usual 
foresight, will again reject it. On this amendment I am in a position to 
give the considered opinion of the Government of India. It was brought 
forward in September. We considered it then and wo put forward the pro- 
visional opinion of the' Government of India then. We have considered 
it since then and after the debates in both Chambers and I have authority 
to say that the Government of India are unable to make any such recom- 
mendation to His Majesty's Government in the terms of the amendment. 
And, Sir, what is the difference between the amendment 
and the amendment to the amendment? Nothing, a difference of 
terms, very small indeed. The. Roval Commission my Honourable friend 
behind me, Mr. Chari, wants is to be a Roval Commission not to examine, 
not to consider the steps to he taken; it is not a Commission such as is 
contemplated by section 84A of the Government of India Act; it is not to- 
inquire and report as to what extent it is desirable to extend, modify or 



ROYAL COMMISSION ON WORKING OF INDIAN CONSTITUTION. 183 

restrict the degree of responsible government; it is a Commission which 
has a mandate, which is sent out with a mandate and it is merely to for 
mulate the machinery by which that mandate is to be given effect to. In- 
deed there is no difference in effect between the two the amendment 
and the amendment to the amendment; and on those grounds I must 
oppose both the amendment and the amendment to the amendment. 

THE HONOURABLE MR. G. S. KHAPARDE (Berar: Nominated Non- 
official) : Sir, while listening to the debate on this motion, the old story 
came to my mind about the three tailors living at one time in England in 
Toole Street who said "We are the people inhabiting the British Isles and 
it is our desire to do so and so." Now those three tailors were no more the 
whole of England than the Swarajists are the whole of India. It is absolute- 
ly wonderful that rny Honourable friend should render an explanation in the 
way he did and say: "We Swarajists want so and so". I may tell my 
Honourable friend that we are not all Swarajists here and we do not mind 
what the Swarajists think, at any rate the present day Swarajists who like 
the three tailors of Toole Street put themselves forward as representing the 
whole of India. At all events, that has nothing to do with it and I wish to 
support the proposition put forward by the Honourable Mr. Sethna about 
the Royal Commission .... 

THE HONOURABLE THE PRESIDENT : If the Honourable Member wishes 
to speak specially on Scth Govind Das's amendment I will allow him 
to proceed, hut I think he should reserve his remarks on Mr. Sethna 's 
Resolution until we have got the amendment out of the way. 

THE HONOURABLE MR. G. S. KHAPARDE : I wish to speak on the main 
proposition. I am not to speak on the main proposition? 

THE HONOURABLE THE PRESIDENT : Not at the moment. 


THE HONOURABLE MR. G. S. KHAPARDE: Well, I oppose the amend- 
ment. 

THE HONOURABLE RAO SAHIB DR. U. RAMA RAO (Madras Non- 
Muhammadan) : Sir, in supporting the amendment of my friend, 
the Honourable Seth Govind Das, I beg to draw the attention 
of the Council to the two Resolutions passed by the Legislative 
Assembly, one on the 18th February 1924, and the other on the 
8th Septerflber, 1925, putting forth our demands with regard to 
the grant of a further instalment of reforms to India. I would like to 
know what the Government have done to give effect to these Resolutions. 
These Resolutions constitute the united demand of all parties and shades 
of political opinion represented in the Assembly. Is that not the demand 
of the entire Indian nation? What have the Government done in the 
matter? The only thing we have heard from Lord Birkenhead down- 
wards is, "We want co-operation. We want co-operation". 

His Excellency the Viceroy told us the other day not only that by "the 
evidence of a spirit of a more friendly co-operation and goodwill, an earlier 
appointment of the statutory commission might be secured," but also that 
the appointment of a Statutory Commission was " the aspiration of all in 
India whose avowed desire is to attain political progress by constitutional 
means." Sir, I do not desire to refute this statement here to-day at any 
length. But if by this he meant that the Swarajists' avowed desire is to 
attain political progress by unconstitutional means, it is wholly incorrect 
so far as their existing programme is concerned. If in spite of them any 



COUNCIL Orf STATE. [18TH FflB, 1926. 

[Dr. U. Rama Rao.] 

parties in any part of the country are hereafter driven at any time to uncons- 
titutional means of attaining political progress, the responsibility will be 
wholly that of the Government. When the Swarajists deliberately suspend,- 
ed their full non-co-operation programme and came into the Legislatures, 
the head of their Tarty, my revered leader Pandit Motilal Nehru, made an 
offer of friendly co-operation and goodwill in the Assembly which to this 
day remains unaccepted and unappreciated. This was two years ago and 
his words may be quoted again with advantage. He then said : 

" Sir, we have come here to offer our co-operation, non-co-operators as we are, 
if you will care to co-operate with us. That is why we are here. If you agree to 
have it, we are your men; if you do rot, we shall, like men, stand upon our rights 
and continue to be non -co-operators." 

This offer was followed, so ar as we in the Indian Legislature are con- 
cerned, by action which in every way has kept that offer open to this day 
and evinced marks of a desire to co-operate with the Government whenever 
necessary in the interests of the country from time to time. Well, never 
mind about us. What about the demand made by politicians of other 
Schools who had co-operated and who had worked the reforms faithfully and 
sincerely from the very commencement, 'for instance, the Justice Party in 
Madras? Was not their cry for a further instalment of reforms also a cry in 
the wilderness? What consideration have the Government shown to the 
Justice Party who have been extolled by the Government as having 
worked the reforms very successfully in the Madras Presidency? The fact 
of the matter is that the bureaucracy are unwilling to -part with their power 
which they had so long enjoyed and there is absolutely no question of our 
co-operation or non-co-operation coming in the way nor our capacity to 
work the reforms. In spito of the many proofs of the co-operation we 
had so far shown His Excellency the Viceroy would want "a more ready 
and complete response". By "-complete response", does PTis Excellency 
mean an abinot surrender and offer to do whatever may be demanded of us 
in the name of the Government? Sir, is that the pre-roquisite condition of 
political progress? If that is so, even in this rarifierl atmosphere of the 
Council of State I venture to say, Sir, no self-respecting Indian worth His 
salt would accept that position. We, Swarajists here, therefore, still await 
tho final reply to that offer that has remained open for these two years; and 
on the response to that offer will depend the further course of action 
which we Swarajists, as representing the constituencies, win decide to 
take. 

THE HONOURABLE SATYED MOTTAMED PADSHAH SAHIB BAHADUR 
(Madras : Muhammadan) : Sir, I intend to speak on the amendment moved 
by my Honourable friend, Mr. Chnri, and I should like to know if I am in 
order in speaking on that amendment. 

THE HONOUIUBLE THE PRESIDENT : The Honourable Member can pro- 
ceed. 

THE HONOURABLE SAIYED MOHAMED PADSHAH SAHIB BAHADUR: 
I am thankful to you, Sir, for having permitted me to take part in the 
discussion of so important an issue which is now engaging the attention of 
the House. Sir, in spite of the hair-splitting that has just been indulged 
in, in spite of the vast gulf of difference that seems to have been discovered 
bv the Honourable, Member who spoke on the Government side between 
the main Resolution moved by my Honourable friend, Mr. Sethi) a, and the 
amendment moved by my Honourable friend, Mr. Chari, I see, Sir, that in 



ROYAL COMMISSION ON WORKING OF INDIAN CONSTITUTION. 185 

effect they are both one and the same. Sir, this amendment which the 
Honourable. Mr. Chari proposes does not seek to rule out a Royal Commis- 
sion. It differs only, in this respect, that it tries to bring prominently to 
the notice of the Commission which would be set up .to make this investiga- 
tion, one aspect to which they would have to direct their attention, namely, 
to make every honest and possible effort to see that the foundation is laid 
for the speedy realisation of responsible government. For after all, that 
amendment proposes that a scheme should be framed for the establishment 
of responsible government in India in accordance witli the recommendations 
contained in the Resolutions of the Legislative Assembly of the 18th 
February, 1924, and the 8th September, 1925, respectively. Now, Sir, any 
committee, any body of reasonable people who will be asked to frame a 
scheme for this particular purpose, would not at once jump to the decision 
that the government that is given to the country here should be all at once 
a responsible government. Before doing this I believe, Sir, it stands to 
reason that this Royal Commission or Round Table Conference or any other 
suitable agency that may be appointed will certainly go into the question 
as to whether there are circumstances here which necessitate the framing 
of the scheme and also whether the scheme that is proposed would be 
suitable to the conditions which now obtain here. Therefore, Sir, even 
though to the Resolution moved by the Honourable Mr. Sethna two' 
amendments have been moved, and though I am not in agreement with 
the amendment moved by my Honourable friend, Seth Govind Das, since 
it seems to exclude the appointment of a Royal Commission, I for one 
would welcome any agency that may be appointed to go into this question 
which calls for an immediate solution. Now, as I said, two amendments 
have been moved to tho Resolution of the Honourable Mr. Sethna. To 
me it seems quite clear that in all the three different suggestions that have 
been placed before this House, there is one common feature ; there seems 
to be one idea which permeates them all, which pervades them all through. 
That idea is this, that there is a demand made by all shades of political 
opinion in this House and outside for a substantial and real advance a 
demand for an advance which is not to be circumscribed within the four 
comers of the Government of India Act, 1919, but an advance which would 
place the Indian constitution on a broader and more liberal and more 
popular bcasis. Now, Sir, when we see this demand made, the -question 
that naturally arises for consideration is whether we have reached a stage 
which calls for a step forward. To make out an answer to this question in 
the affirmative, I do not think any great effort is needed or any very clever 
arguments advanced at this stage; since this question has been before this 
and the other Chamber on more occasions than one. All that I say is this : 
that the present state of things, the stern facts, the grim reality of which 
you -cannot ignore, the glaring defects which have 'been disclosed at every* 
inch that you proceeded to 'work the dyarchic system all these point to 
ono n,nd Irm only natural and inevitable conclusion that the whole system of 
administration calls for a complete overhauling, for a change affecting root 
and branch. Now, Sir, ns we have seen, dyarchy has been tried here too 
loner. Even those that had faith in it and made every possible effort to 
work the avstp. sncneflsfullv, have ultimately lost their faith and have at 
last acknowledged it to be thorough! V nnRiiitflble to the conditions of this 
country and entirelv unworkable. Even in Mndrns Sir, the province I come 
from, where dyarchv ia sunposed to have worked best, the little measure 
of success that was achieved was achieved by ignoring dyarchy and, in the 



180 COUNCIL OF STATE. [18TH FEB. 1926. 

[Saiyed Mohamed Padshah.] 

words of Lord Birkenhcad, by making very considerable inroads on the dyar- 
chic (principle. Therefore, Sir, J would ask whether it is not time that the 
system is done away with and that we tried seriously to consider ways and 
means by which a better state of things may come into being, that we- 
try and evolve a system which may be more workable, which it may be 
worth one's while to work well, and worth one's while to try to work well. 
Now, as long ago as 1921 the Government thought that the Government of 
India Act should be revised earlier than 1929. Now, Sir, these 5J years, 
which have elapsed since have witnessed great developments, have seen 
very great changes, so thai I would not be far wrong if I say that the 
political horizon to-day in India is much brighter than what it was before, 
and the case for a revision of the Government of India Act is very much 
stronger now tluin it was in 1921. I am of opinion that even though there 
may be some difference in the point of view of some schools of thought 
here and oven though it may not be readily appreciated by the powers- 
that be, the offer that has been made by the people who have til] now 
stood outside the Councils should not be rejected. Time and again it has 
been made clear to Government by responsible Members both in this House 
and in the Assembly that whatever might have been their attitude in the 
past the. Swaraj Party is now perfectly willing to co-operate provided it 
feels that there will be Rome real advantage in doing that. Though it is a 
fact that this statement is hedged round with a lot of other things which 
may seem to some people who are apt to take alarm too quickly to be 
abjectionable, to me the offer appears to have been made in the plainest 
of terms possible and we should not therefore mind the way in which it 
is hedged round so long as they have prop,] aimed that they are prepared 
to co-operate. I will close my remarks by submitting this. Whether a 
Royal Commission is they agency by which this investigation has got fo be 
made or whether it is by a Round Table. Conference, let every honest 
effort be made in order that the investigation may after all prove more 
fruitful than the Reforms Inquiry Committee. There was overwhelming 
evidence before it which went to show the thorough undesirnhility and the 
utter unworkahility of the present constitution but it failed to produce 
any result. I only hope that the new agency that may be created to investi- 
gate the problem will be given much wider terms of reference so that even 
though they may not now and all at once give us responsible government, 
they may prepare a scheme which will set us on the ri<rht path to work our 
way soor, to responsible government. With these words I resume my seat. 

THE HONOURABLE THE PRESIDENT: I gather from the last two 
speeches that it will certainly assist the Council if I proceed to clarify the 
issue by taking a decision of the House on the two amendments and I 
proceed now to put them to the House. 

The original question was: 

"This Council recommends to the Governor General in Council to urge upon 
His Maiestv s GovPrnmnnt the appointment, forthwith of a Roval Commission to investi- 
gate and inquire into the working of thp m-esent Indian constitution and to formulate' 
ft scheme for the establishment of responsible government in India." 

To which an amendment was moved : 

11 To substitute for the original Resolution the following : 

_,f<!" nc iJ recommends to the Governor General an Council to move Hi> 
Majesty a Government to make a declaration in the Parliament announc- 
ing its decision to take immediate steps to embody in the constitutional 



ROYAL COMMISSION ON WORKING OF INDIAN CONSTITUTION. 



187 



and administrative machinery of India the fundamental changes asked 
for in the Resolutions passed by the Legislative Assembly on 18th February, 
1924, and 8th September, 1925, and to obtain the decision of His Majesty's 
Government thereon '." 

To which two amendments were moved : 

"That in the amended Resolution proposed by the Honourable Seth Govind Das for the 
words ' make a declaration in the Parliament announcing its decision to take immediate 
steps to embody in the constitutional and administrative machinery of India tho 
fundamental changes asked for ' tho words ' appoint forthwith a Royal Commission 
or other suitable agency to formulate a scheme for the establishment of responsible 
Government in India' in accordance with ' be substituted, and the words ' and to 
obtain the decision of His Majesty's Government thereon ' be omitted." 

The first question that I have to put to the tHouse is that those two 
amendments be made in the amended Eesolution proposed by the Hon- 
ourable Seth Govind Das. 

The motion was negatived. 

THE HONOURABLE THE PRESIDENT: The question that I have now to 
put to the House is that the amended Resolution proposed, by the Hon- 
ourable Seth Govind Das be substituted for the Resolution proposed by 
the Honourable Mr. Selhna. 

The Council divided . 



Sett. The Honourable Rai Bahadur 

Nalininath. " 
Siulin. The Honourable Mr. Anugraha 

Narayan. 
S u lira war dy. The Honourable Mr. 

Mahmood. 
Zuhair, The Honourable Mr. Shah 

Muhammad. 



Govind Das, The Honourable Seth. 
Mukherjee, . The Honourable Snijut 

Lokenath. ] 

Rnmadas Pantulu, The Honourable i 

Mr. V. ! 

Rama Rno, The Honourable Rao 

Sahib Q. 



NOES 37. 



Abbott, The Honourable Mr. E. R. 
Abdul Karim, The Honourable 

Manlvi. 
Akbar Khan, The Honourable Major 

Nawab Mahomed. 
Alay N.ibi. The Honourable Syed. 
Bell. The Honourable Mr. J. 'W. A. 
Bijay Chand Mali tab, The Honourable 

Sir, Maliarajadhiraja Bahadur of 

Burdw;m. 

Chadwick, The Honourable Mr. D. T. 
Charanjit Singh, The Honourable 

Sardar. 
Commander-in-Chicf. His Excellency 

the. 

Crerar, The Honourable Mr. J. 
Das, The Honourable .Mr. S. R. 
Desika Chari, The Honourable Mr. 

P. C. 

Emerson, The Honourable Mr. T. 
Froorn, The Honourable Sir Arthur. 
Harnam Singh, The Honourable Raja 

Sir. 
Hindley, The Honourable Sir 

Clement. 

Hotson, The Honourable Mr. J. E. B. 
Hubback, The Honourable Mr. J. A. 
Khaparde, The Honourable Mr. G. S. 
Ley, The Honourable Mr. A. II . 

The motion was negatived. 



MacWatt, The Honourable Major 

General Sir Charles. 
Mac Watt ers, The Honourable Mr. A. 

C. 
Maninohand.is Ramji Vora, The 

Honourable Mr. 
Misra. The 'Honourable Pandit Shyam 

Bihari. 

Morarji. The Honourable Mr. R. D. 
Muhammad Habihullah, The Honour- 
able Khan Bahadur Sir, Sahib 

Bahadur. 
Nawab Ali Khan, The Honourable 

"Raja. 

Padshah Sahib Bahadur, The Hon- 
ourable Saiyed Mohamed. 
Ram pal Singh, The Honourable Raja 

Sir. 
Ram Saran Das, The Honourable Rai 

Bahadur Lala. 

Roy, The Honourable Mr. K. C. 
Setlina, The Honourable Mr. Phiroze 

C. 

Tek Chand, The Honourable Diwan. 
Thompson, The Honourable Mr. J. P. 
Todlmnter. The Honourable Sir 

Chnrles. 
Umar ITayat Khan, The Honourable 

Colonel Nawab Sir. 
Wftcha, The Honourable Sir Dinshaw. 



188 COUNCIL OF STATE. [l8TH FEB. 1926. 

THE HONOURABLE THE PEESIDENT: That brings the House back to 
the original Resolution moved by the Honourable Mr. Sethna. 

THE HONOURABLE SIR ALEXANDER MUDD1MAN: Sir, before I 
proceed to deal with the terms of the main Resolution, let me commence 
by congratulating my Honourable friend Mr. Sethna on the able and 
moderate way in which he put his arguments, and let me assure him that 
I shall meet him entirely in the same spirit. He is an accomplished 
speaker to whom I have listened on many occasions from another position 
in this House, Sir, and if on this occasion I meet him on the floor of the 
House, it is with great pleasure because I know he is a fair, impartial and 
reasonable antagonist. If he was somewhat unfortunate in some of his 
propositions, I doubt not that the reception they met with in this House 
was somewhat of a surprise to him also. 

Now, Sir, I would ask the House to consider very briefly what are the 
actual terms of the Resolution which my Honourable friend has brought 
forward. He will pardon me for saying Sir, that his speech seemed to me lo 
adumbrate a Jicsolution soinewiint different in terms from that which is 
placed on the agenda. He asks that this Council should recommend to the 
Governor General in Council to urge upon His Majesty's Government the 
appointment forthwith of a Royal Commission. That is, there is to be aa 
immediate Royal Commission, and that Royal Commission is to do two 
things. It is, in the first place, to investigate and inquire into the work- 
ing of the present constitution, and in the second place, it is to formulate 
a scheme for the establishment of responsible government in India. That 
is to say, the Royal Commission is not to inquire if, how or in what direc- 
tion any extension of the present system i& to be made. It is to formulate 
a scheme for the establishment of responsible government. Therefore, 
what my Honourable 'friend apparently contemplates is not the advance- 
ment of the date of the Statutory Commission provided for by section 
84 A of the Government of India Act. I must really take up the time of 
llio IToiisn by reading this section once .again. It is, I think, very im 
portant, that we should clarify our views on the subject of a Royal Com- 
mission. The Parliament which passed the Act itself also provides a 
machinery under the Act for the appointment of a Statutory Commission. 
Reference is often made to a Royal Commission of a different kind.- But 
(he method for examining the constitutional position created by the Gov- 
ernment of India Act was in fact provided by Parliament itself in section 
84 A of that Act. That section runs as follows : 

11 At the expiration of ten years after the passing of the government of India Act, 
1919," 

and there I pause to point out what is well known to tKe House that 
there must be in 1929 a Statutory Commission, 

11 the Secretary of State with the concurrence of both Houses of Parliament shall 
submit for the approval of His Majesty the names of persons to act as the Commission 
for the purposes of this section. The persons whose names are so submitted^ if 
approved by His Mai'esty, shall be a Commission for the purpose of inquiring into 
the working of the system of Government, the growth of education and the develop- 
ment of representative institutions in British India and matters connected^ therewith, 
nd the Commission shall report as to whether and to what extent it is desirable 



110YAL COMMISSION ON WOUKINU OF INDIAN CONSTITUTION. 1S9> 

to establish Uie principle ul responsible government or co extend, modiiy, or restrict, 
toe aegiee oi reapoiiaiuie go v eminent tneii existing therein, including the question 
wiietner Hie estauiisiiuitiii ut the second chambers of Uie local legislatures is or is 
not desirable." 

Now, the words oi: thai section require very careful consideration by 
this House. What is contemplated is a commission of inquiry by a thbu,- 
nal which will come out, investigate matters, .from its own conclusions and 
make its own recommendations. If I understand my Honourable friend 
rightly, his Commission the Commission, 1 will not say at any rate that 
he adumbrated in his speech, but the Commission which he referred to 
in his Resolution is something quite different. His Commission antici- 
pates the decision, if 1 may say ao, on the main point which will be in 
issue. It is to formulate a scheme for the establishment of responsible 
government in India. Sir, the progress towards responsible government, 
has frequently been compared to a road and we have heard a good deal 
of the milestones on tho road. My Honourable friend apparently contem- 
plates that we should arrive at the last milestone at once and that we should 
formulate the procedure which is to be followed after we get there. That, 
Sir, is not what the Government of India Act contemplates. I recognise 
that my Honourable friend's speech was not quite in accordance with thd 
terms of his Resolution. He there, I think, did contemplate somethia^ 
different. He did contemplate that it would be useless having regard 
to the long history of these constitutional debates and constitutional 
controversies which have been going on for some years to ask Government 
to recommend any fundamental change in the existing constitution with- 
out an inquiry of the nature contemplated by the Government of India, 
Act, and I would point out to the 'House th'at that was the view taken 
also by the minority report of the Committee over which I had the honoui 
to preside. They took the view that any drastic constitutional changes in 
the body politic in India must necessarily be preceded by an inquiry of 
the nature I have put forward and not by an inquiry with a pre-determinsd 
issue. My Honourable friend in speaking put forward the view that what 
is in issue is a further and immediate advance. He -said, "We do not say 
we are right. We contend we are ready for a further immediate advance. 
We ask you to submit that case to a tribunal. You may differ from us. 
You may be right or you may be wrong, but we wish to go before the 
tribunal now. We are not concerned whether you think we have a good 
case or a bad case. We ask that we may prove our ORRP." That is to 
say, in effect, his view is that he has now a case which would justify Rn 
impartial tribunal in granting the -establishment of responsible govern- 
ment in India. But* that is not what his Resolution asks for. His Resolu- 
tion asks for something: quite different. As My Honourable friend (the 
Honourable Mr. S. E. Das) points out to me, the Commission would 
come out with the main issues that it has to try decided in the affirmative. 

Now, Sir, this question of the advancement of trie date, assuming tfiat 
my friend is basing his arguments on what ho pair! in his speech and that 
his Resolution does not mean what it appears to mean in clear terms, 
' the case that he has really put forward is an advancement in the date 
of the Statutory Commission this question has frequently been 'discusse'd. 
We discussed it in this House last September. The attitude of Govern- 
ment towards' jfchd proposition is well known. It cannot be better stated 
-than in the words of the Secretary of State which must be in tho- 



190 COUNCIL OF STATE. [18TH FEB. 1926. 

[Sir Alexander Muddirnan.] 

recollection of some at least ol the Members of this House. The Secretary 
of State, speaking on this point, said: 

" We shall not he diverted from its high obligations by the tactics of restless 
impatience. The door of acceleration is not open to menace ; still less will it be 
'stormed by violence. But there never has been a moment since the Constitution was 
adopted in which the Government of India, act-ing in" harmony with the Government 
at home, has not been vigilantly and attentively considering the spirit in which the 
present reforms have been received in India." 

Now, I am not prepared to say that there has not h.een some change in* the 
attitude in certain circles towards reforms. My Honourable friend 
opposite made a speech which differed fundamentally, if I may say so, 
from the speech that he made in September. 

THE HONOURABLE MR. HAMADAS PANTULU: No, Sir. 

THE HONOURABLE SIR ALEXANDER MIIDDTMAN: Am T to under- 
stand that my Honourable friend has not moved an inch since last 
September ? 

THE HOXOUJIARLE MR. HAMADAS PANTULU : T have not, 

THE HONOURABLE SIR ALEXANDER MUDDIMAN : 1 have been 
supplied with the answer T require to give to my Honourable friend 
Mr. Scthna. We are, told flint' there has been no change. The Honour- 
able Mr. Sothiui said that Fhere has been great change. But speaJcing 
on lehalf of that Party which at any rate is the most numerous in one 
House of this Legislature, and is well represented even in this House, 
he said that there had been a change of heart, ihat- they are co- operating'. 
My Honourable friend, speaking with perhaps more authority than even 
the Honourable Mr. Scthna, says that it is not the case. Sir, it is no 
part of my brief to overstate my case. T am prepared, in spite of my 
Honourable friend's protest, to admit that there has been some change. 
T have seen some weakening, shall I say in the cement that holds together 
those who hold views which I understand my Honourable friend (the 
Honourable Mr. Bamadas Pantulu) holds. T have seen a distinct weaken- 
ing. But, Sir, that does not really greatly alter the case. It is true, 
and I admit it, thai, the general attitude in the country has improved. 
It is true that in certain places Bills which might have been rejected 
have been considered on their merits and passed. I admit all that. 
I must also remember however that in other places there has been no 
such change, that in two important provinces in India now, my own 
Province and the Central Provinces, the reforms are not working. I do 
not .agree with the arguments that have been put forward that they are 
not working in other provinces. They are working in other provinces and 
it proves that with goodwill those reforms can be worked. As has been 
said you have not come to us and said " You have not given us enough; 
we will prove by the use of that which you have given us our use for more lf . 
That is not my Honourable friend's argument. His argument is " We 
will have nothing whatever to do with the reforms!" That at any rate 
is the argument of his party. He tells me that it was not. I again wait 
for confirmation. 

Then, Sir, since last September after the debates in J;he two Houses 
the Government of India have been most carefully considering the poeitiaa. 
They have considered the debates in both Chambers. They have watched 



ROYAL COMMISSION ON WORKING OF INDIAN CONSTITUTION. 191 

what has been going on. They have observed, it was a matter that was 
thrust on their attention, the -resolutions which have been referred to 
which were passed at Cawnpore. I am told, I think by one speaker, 
that those resolutions were not in the nature of a threat; they were the 
hand outstretched. Sir, I am always willing to put a favourable con- 
struction on any statement that may be made; but admitting the hand 
outstretched, I ask the House to say, was it the hand of friendship? I fear 
not. The Government of India have considered whether since the debates 
book place last September there has been anything which would justify 
them in modifying the provisional conclusion which they then laid before the 
Legislature on those occasions. They have done so with an anxious and 
eager desire to see the position from all points of view. They put them- 
selves in the position of those who would desire to put the case in the 
most favourable light. They are unable to come to any other conclusion; 
they must adhere to the position which they then adopted. And what 
is that position? It is this. It has been brought before this House ; .n 
words which must have made the greatest impression on those who heaffd 
thorn, and if the House will permit me to take up their time for a few 
seconds I will repeat them again. No less a person than the head of 
the Government of India in addressing this Council made the following 
observations: 

11 Tn the first place by the evidence of a spirit of this character an earlier appoint- 
ment of the Statutory Commission might he scoured. T understand that this is the 
aspiration of all in India whose avowed desire is to attain political progress by consti- 
tutional means. Not less Important is the other consideration, that by this spirit 
alone a better political atmosphere would come' into existence and prevail at the 
time the Commission commenced its inquiry * * * Tt is thus made 

clear that proof of genuine goodwill in tho direction of working the constitution to 
the best advantage will be regarded by the British Parliament as an important factor 
for their guidance in determining the course to be pursued in the immediate future. 
If this view is correct, and I can scarcely conceive the possibility of contradiction, 
and as the future stages of advance must be decided by the British Parliament, 
would it not benefit India's political progress to provide plain and unambiguous 
evidence of this goodwill." 

Now those are considered words, well weighed words and they are words 
which cannot be repeated too often to this House. They are not spoken 
in anything but a spirit of goodwill and with a genuine desire to see India 
advance in the course which it has so greatly at heart. My Honourable 
friend will probably tell me that there have been unambiguous expres- 
sions f>f goodwill. I rlo not think he really feels that. I do not think 
after having heard what was said in this House he could expect me 4 ,o 
believe it. I do not deny that the atmosphere has improved. I hope 
the atmosphere will improve and when the atmosphere does improve then 
the condition that is laid down will be on the road to fulfilment and India 
may be nearer to that which she so much desires. But it is not by 
referring to existing institutions as camouflage; it is not by arguments *vf 
that kind that reasonable men are convinced. It is not true to say that 
the existing constitutional institutions in India are [camouflage. They 
give power ; it may not be such power as you desire or to the extent 
which you desire, but they give power and the proof that they give power 
is the awakening of the consciousness of power in the various communities. 
Much of the trouble that has been experienced in the last two years is 
nothing unusual, nothing to be disappointed at in one sense; it is that nt 
last the communities have felt that they are in touch with realities; it 
is that these painful years of development have been useful to India in 



192 COUNCIL OF STATE. [18TH FEB. 1926. 

[Sir Alexander Muddiman.] 

that they have brought India to know that the future is not to be deter- 
mined by a stroke of the pen, that you cannot force people to work con- 
stitutions, that you may grant constitutions but unless you can work 
constitutions you are no further forward. The peoples of India are 
beginning to (recognise the fact that it is by ifacing realities that we shall 
solve those problems which so urgently call for solution; it is not by a 
conspiracy of silence, it is not by hiding, by putting away in a corner, those 
questions which are and must be the vital questions to be decided, that, 
advance will be made. It is said my Honourable friend said it no doubt 
not too seriously it is said that we have the Swaraj Party on the brain. 
Sir, I do not recognise any party. I recognise that there are influences, 
in this country which we have to consider. I do not think we have them 
on the brain; they were at one time very present in the body; there still 
are a large number of them in the Legislatures of this country, and, js 
it must be in all important bodies of men, perhaps there are right wings 
and loft wings, but still they are a very present and important factor inu 
India; and my Honourable friend when he speaks in their name would 
do well I think to ascertain that he has authority to speak in their name. 
I must confess that when I listened to the speeches I found that on that 
point ho needs no further refutation than the refutation that has come 
from those Benches themselves. 

Sir, I have detained the House at considerable length. I have endea- 
voured to bring forward rrifctters for your consideration which I think it is 
essential that you should consider. I trust I have given no inconsiderate- 
or hasty roply to the Resolution on the. paper. I have shown that as far 
as Government a>re concerned we stand exnctly where we did in this- 
respect. We have done and are still prepared to do what we said we 
will do; but it is useless to come and put forward a Resolution which in 
effeofc is entirely contrary to anything that has ever been put forward as 
tho possible result of a Royal Commission. You will prejudice the issue 
if you ask us to accept a Resolution of this kind and it is quite impossible 
for me on behalf of Government to do so, and I trust the House will take 
the same view. 

THE HONOURABLE RAI BAHADUR LALA RAM SARAN DAS (Punjab : Non- 
Muhammadan) : Sir, I rise to support the Resolution so ably moved by 
my Honourable friend Mr. Sethna. We have seen that Dyarchy has 
everywhere failed; and it is natural it should have failed. Functions of 
Government cannot be separated. All departments are intimately con- 
nected with one another. It is impossible to shut them in water-tight 
compartments like those of Reserved Departments and Transferred Depart- 
ments. The only solution is unitary system of Government. The Gov- 
ernment must make up their mind to make the representatives of the 
people in the Legislative bodies fully controlling authorities in all depart- 
ments of Government excepting military defence and political .an'd foreign- 
relations with protected Princes and foreign powers. 

It may be said on the other side, that the Preamble to the Government 
of India Act of 1919 lays down, that further advance in self-governing 
powers will depend on the amount of co-operation received from the 
people in working the reforms. Sir, we all know, nnd the Government 
. also admit it, that in the first Legislative Assembly an3 in the first Council 
of State, the Government received full co-operation, from the representatives 



UOYAL COMMISSION OX WOllKI.XU OF 1XD1AX COXHTLTl TIOX. 193 

uf the people-. In the second Jjegislativc Assembly too, Sir, some of the 
most important measures moved by Government have been supported b} 
the J^f embers of the Assembly. They supported the scheme for the separa- 
tion of Eailway Budget from the General Budget. They supported the 
proposal of Government in connection with the iron and steel industry. 
Ordinarily, Sir, the Government received co-operation from the Assembly ; 
but even most of the Swarajists have adopted responsive co-operation and 
are veering round to co-operation. But I would like to ask, which Legisla- 
ture in tin 1 world does not at times adopt obstructive methods? Even 
the Mother of Parliaments, the British House of Commons, does at times 
adopt obstructive methods against the ministry in power. The repre- 
sentatives of the Indian people in the Legislative Assembly, Sir, have, 
conducted themselves in a responsible manner. They have not in practice 
followed ,a policy of continuous and constant obstruction. Sir, I hold 
that we have satisfied the condition regarding co-Qperation in the Preamble, 
and T am sure, any Royal Commission that may be appointed will givo its 
verdict in our favour. 

Members occupying the Official Benches 111:13 lr ^ us lnjl l India is not 
yet fit to defend herself; and that self-government without ability to defend 
means nothing. I would like to ask, Sir, whether this condition was 
iitiposed on tho other self-governing* Dominions before self-government was 
granted to them? Was Australia fit to defend herself against Japan or 
;my other great power when self-government was granted to her? Was 
Oanada fit to defend herself against the United States of America, or any 
-other power, when dominion status was granted to her? No, Sir, this 
argument does not hold water. Tho inclusion of the. Dominions within the 
British Empire is a source of great strength and advantage to England. 
The ever-expanding population of England finds u home in these Colonies 
without being obliged to go out of the Empire. Similarly, the continuance 
-of India within the British Empire is a source of great strength and ad- 
vantage to England . In fact the British Empire without India is no 
Empire. A very large number of Englishmen find employment in India. 
England finds in India the greatest market for her goods. It is undeniable 
that England derives immense material advantages by possessing India 
within her Empire. For her own sake, therefore, it is England's duty to 
<lefend India against foreign aggression, just as it is her duty to defend 
the other self-governing Dominions. But, Sir, there is another aspect of 
tho question also. Indians do nol shirk the responsibility of defending 
themselves. On the other hand they have been crying hoarse themselves 
for a number of years past to have greater opportunities for military 
service. We luive been asking for the expansion of our territorial forces, 
-bufc we have received a very meagre response from Government. We 
liavc been asking for the extension of recruiting operations for the Indian 
Army to all parts of the country, but they have so far confined their 
activities in this matter to only one or two provinces. The restrictions 
imposed by tho Arms Act have unmanned the entire Indian population. 
Does it, under such circumstances, lie in the mouth of the Government 
to say that India cannot get self-government, because she is not fit to 
defend herself? We may well ask, who has rendered us unfit for this work? 

Our friends on the opposite side may say 'that we liave not yet defined 
what Swaraj exactly means. They may say we have not yet. indicated 
what kind of constitutional government we want. Sir, wo have given 



liH COUNCIL OF STATE. [18TI1 PfiB. 192(5. 

[Lain Ham JSaranDas.] 

the answer to that question on the 8th of September, 1925. In the Simla 
Session of the Central Legislature, the Legislative Assembly formulated 
the Indian (k-mmids. These demands have been confirmed by the Congress 
as well as the Liberal Federation in Calcutta. The details of this scheme 
nan be worked out by a Royal Commission or any other body appointed 
by Government. All political parties, Sir, are now agreed on what should 
be the further stage in the constitutional reforms in India. 

Jt may be urged that Hie masses in India are not yet politically awaken- 
ed, and that they -cannot as yet be trusted with votes. It may be said 
that India is as yet very backward in education, and that the Indian 
masses cannot as yet intelligently exercise the franchise. In this connec- 
tion, Sir, I would like to ask, what was the condition of the English 
educationally at the time of the Reforms Act of 1832, or even at the time 
of the Reforms Act of 1.884 and 1885? In 1832, Sir, the English people 
were very backward in education, and yet the people were trusted with 
votes. 

We art*. sometimes told, Sir, the Hindu-Muhammadan differences, and 
the .Brahmin and non-Brahmin differences stand in the way of the successful 
working of democratic institutions. But, S.r, 1 must frankly point out that 
the acceptance by Government of a* policy of having communal repre- 
sentation in all spheres of Governmental activities is responsible for all this 
tension. Instead of confining it to legislative bodies, and even that 
temporarily, the Government are now extending communal representation 
to local self-governing bodies, to the services, to the admission of students 
into schools and colleges, in fact everywhere. The extension of communal 
representation is clearly responsible for all this present communal tension. 
It is in the hands of the Government to remove this communal tension. 

\Ve were told the other day by a very high authority that the 
present political atmosphere in England is not as yet favourable to the 
appointment of a Royal Commission. I do not know, Sir, how political 
atmospheres in England can be improved. What I do know, Sir, is that 
India wants England to do her justice. India is of very great material 
advantage to England. It is England's interest to see "that India does 
not remain a discontented and dissatisfied member of the commonwealth of 
British nations. A contented India within the British Empire would be 
a source of great strength to England. The demands of India are reason- 
able, and I should think, Sir, that England should ijive Tier responsible 
government. India wants to remain within- the British Empire. She has 
learnt a good deal from England. India is a pupil of England, and by 
being within the Empire India like other self-governing Dominions feels 
a great sense of security. It is to 'the mutual advantage of both England 
and India to he indissolubly bound in n tie of everlasting friendship; and 
F hope. Sir, England will not refuse to meet the reasonable and just demands- 
of India. 

The Reforms Commission is to come sooner or later, not later 
than 1929 why not have it now? Be generous and you will secure the 
goodwill of not only this House, but of the Assembly aa well and of 
Liberals, Independents, and Swarajists in India. Generosity will breed 
generosity and the result will He peace, contentment, and happiness nil 
over Tndin. 



HOYAL COMMISSION ON WORKING OF INDIAN CONSTITUTION. 196 

With these remarks 1 support the Resolution which my Honourable 
friend Mr. Sethna has so ably and admirably moved in this House. 

THE HONOURABLE SIR B1JAY CHAND MAHTAB, MAIIARA.IADHIUAJA 
BAHADUR OF BURDWAN (Bengal: Nominated Non-Official): Mr. President, 
when tho leaders of all parties in a country press for the raising of that 
land to the level of the nations of the world and show a haste, even an 
unpardonable haste, for liberation and liberty the position is full >f 
pathos. It is undeniable that whatever the reasons may be the present 
reforms as well as the present constitution do not satisfy Political India. 
But may I ask those who ask for a Commission, this? Does the remedy 
lie in simply appointing a Commission or some other agency to inquire? 
I hope that both parties here, those on behalf of Government as well as 
those who are advocating this Commission, will forgive me if for a moment 
1 try to upbear as an amateur surgeon and tr\ to dissect tilings. 1 should 
like to put some direct questions. Are the British Government prepared 
to leave India? If not, do they think that in a laud inhabited by people 
alien to them dominion status like Canada or Australia, is possible? If 
not, what is the alternative shape in which self-government, in India, or 
to use the nomenclature responsible government, could be realized? 

The forces in India thai are making themselves more and more visible 
every day may be classified for my purpose into four groups. FirM *rt all, \\e 
will have to put the anarchists and revolutionaries. Then we shall have to 
put the extreme wing of the Swarajists, i.e., the militant Swarajists to 
which I take it the Sethji from the Central Provinces belongs. Then \ve 
shall have to bring! in the Independents and Nationalists, and lastly those 
who are still considered as the Constitutionalists or Moderates. The last 
category is for the moment very much in the minority, and in fact, at 
times I am unable to find a Moderate in some quarters. The first two, 
it is no good denying, are tired of British rule in India, and would probably 
prefer Bolshevism, Brown Eule, Bevolution, Yellow Kule anything except 
British Kule. That being the situation, the British Parliament has to r be 
asked to make up its mind definitely as to what is to be the future gov- 
ernment in India. But one thing must not be forgotten that in all future 
advances the Government in this country as well as the Government ia 
England have got to consider those vested interests which have hitherto 
believed in them, i.e., British Eule. If they do not and if they still wish 
to hold India, may I bring a parallel and I trust I will be pardoned for the 
parallel. Let us imagine ourselves for a moment in the Appian way 
of Homo. Let us imagine St. Peter and his little group of Christian followers 
about to leave Homo for the persecutions. Let us then imagine the 
shadow of Jesus Christ appearing! and St. Peter taken aback exclaiming 
"Domine quo vacUs*?" Let not the condition come to such a pass in 
India when the British Government, the British element is forced to *ay 
to those vested interests, "Where goest thou?" because they can turn 
round and say with justification, "Where goest thou?" It is all right for 
one Sethji to be so softhearted as to become a ewe lamb to be shorn by 
his Swarajist friends, but there are others who would not be willing to bt 
fleeced so easily. There is also that India which counts, that India of 
which His Highness the Maharaja of Baroda reminded ua at a Banquet 
held not very long ago at Baroda. For all these reasons the future advance 
is neither so easy nor can one so light-heartedly ask for responsible govern- 
ment to be" given to-morrow, immediately at once. 

D 2 



UOL-.VCII. OF STATE. [J8rn J^'ETC. 192G. 

[Sif Bijay Chand Mahtab. 

Now, let me come to the question of the atmosphere. To my great 
'delight I have had the honour and privilege to liear from two Members of 
the Central Government two of the best and clearest pronouncements 
that I have had the privilege to hear for a long time. Yesterday the Hon- 
ourable Mir. 8. II. Das, the Law Member, made an excellent speech de- 
fining the position of the constitution of the Government of India.- To- 
day iny Honourable friend, and an old friend too, the Home Member 
.'has told us in unmistakeable language what the position is. And I 'con- 
gratulate him, and through him the Government of India, because whit 
we do want in India is this firmness and not the rumour and sometimes 
more than si rumour that goes round "that those that hammer most get 
(he most." A friend who is now holding a very responsible position in the 
Punjab Government once told me a story, and I think there is something 
in it. To mi old military friend of his lie had complained that the class 
">r community to which ho belonged did not always get the attention it 
deserved. The military officer turned round and said: " My dear fellow, 
you do not hammer half enough like your political friend. The English- 
man only gives in when lie is hammered". That is the position, Sir, and 
if by hammering people get something, they will go on doing so and there 
will be many more Sefhjis who will join the Swaraj Party. But what I 
wish to submit in all seriousness tr> the Government of India is this one 
Fact, that whilst u Royal Commission as suggested by the Honourable 
Mr. Scthna may not be possible, and I do not think it is constitutionally 
possible, if the atmosphere does not change, then before very long, I think 
ihe Government of India will have seriously to consider whether oligarchy 
will ever be a success in India, whether or not bureaucracy must continue, 
whether it he more tinted and more coloured than it is now. Further, if 
iln obstruction continues, that obstruction itself might act in a very 
different way to the larger majority of Indians who really do want to sec 
India raised to the level of the nations of the world, the British Parlia- 
ment might turn round and turn round very rightly and say: "We gave you 
partial responsibility and we gave you responsibility, but you would not 
have it, therefore all that we gave 1ms got to be changed until you prove 
1hat you are fit. uniil every party shows that it is fit to shoulder those 
responsibilities." I think, put in a nutshell, that is the position which 
the Government of India themselves put forward. I therefore appeal in 
all earnestness to all parties in India, being a non-party man myself, that 
the best way to pet a further instalment of reforms is to work those we have, 
now wholeheartedly and not to firing fonvar'd Resolutions of this nature 
at every Session. 

Sir, I have only one more word to say, because by a strange coincidence 
of course, you the Honourable President, Sir, cannot join us in the debate, 
but by a strange coincidence in this Chamber to-day, there are present 
four out of the five signatories to the Majority Beport of the Reforms 
Inquiry Committee, the Honourable Sir Arthur Proom, the Honourable. 
Sir Alexander Muddiman, the Honourable the President and myself, and 
I mav remind those who -were my colleagues then that in a note at the 




in greater detail into the question of provincial autonomy. I am glad 
*hat the Government of India took up that suggestion, and the valuable 



HOYAL COMMISSION ON WORKING OF INDIAN CONSTITUTION. |.J7 

lepovt which Sir Frederick Whytu has submitted is indeed n very use- 
Tul document, although it has been belittled in some quarters. 1 should 
like to draw the. attention of those who somewhat light -heartedly use 
the words "provincial autonomy" to study what Sir Frederick Whyte ha- 
said on the subject. For all these reasons, Sir, I would ask the Honour- 
able Mr. Sethna to withdraw his ^Resolution. 

THE HoNouiiABLK-Mii. (V. S. KHAPA11DK (lierar: Nominated Non- 
Official): Sir, hitherto the objection to si Commission was based on iliree 
grounds. One was that under tin- existing law it was possible to makv 
progress and therefore we should not be in a hurry to make any change. 
The next ground was that tho merits and capabilities of the constituencies 
had got to be properly tested, and Government wanted to test them befoiv 
making an advance. The third ground was that the constitutions;! 
machinery as it is functioning in India requires to be tested, and until it is 
tested it is not advisable, to make an advance. To all these grounds. Sir, 
two more grounds have been added to-day, one by the Honourable tin- 
Home Member for whom, as everybody knows, I have very very great 
respoct, and with whom T am on terms of even private friendship, and 
that ground is this-. Tho Commission spoken oi! in the Resolution by the 
Honourable Mr. Sethna is noti the same as was mentioned in the House of 
Commons the same evening this A'ct was passed. Sir, when this Act 
was passed, or when it was on the anvil I forget now exactly the stage 
it was, T think, Mr. Ben Spoor who put a question and asked whether for 
the next ten years no attempt would be made at all to advance the causo- 
of India. Then Mr. Montagu pointed out that ho never said that nothing 
would be done until after 1929, but an inquiry might come before 1929. 
Well, the matter remained there, and we canu* to India. I quite admit- 
that oven in tho very first Session the Assembly passed a Resolution asking 
for full responsible government. Then I made an attempt to explain it by 
saying that India had been starving for a long time and has been asking 
for more reforms, ;md sinoo n, small step had been taken, they naturally 
ask for more. Now, what happens in famines? Popple who are famished 
or hungry for days and da-vs together do not gel a good meal all at once, 
because it is not good for them. Tho doctor says to (hem: "Take a little 
dotyce". Then the people ask for more, and the doctor says thnl ho will 
not give it. Then again the famished people cry out for more, and more, 
and tho officer on special duty or the doctor who looks after those famished 
people gives them little by little. Similarly, such a thing happens here. 
In the First Session of both tho Assembly and the Council of State. my 
Honourable friend behind mo (the Honourable Nawab Sir Umar Hayai 
Khan) will bear me out it was said f< Don't attend to what these people say 
because thev have been famished for a long time, they will go on asking 
for more and more". 

. Because they have boon famished in the matter of reforms for n 
long time they will go on asking for more. But that does not mnttov. 
You need not put it as anything against them. I gave the instance of 
Sir Walter Scott. Ho was a, poet and a novelist. He had a horse given 
to him for the first time at the age of 18. He was fond of tho days of 
chivalry and gallantry. Ho thought that he had himself hacome a kriteht. 
Ho got on ithat horse and made it run faster than it could. I tol^vou that 
story. It is because we were famished for a long time. . During all tlv> 
20 years of the administration not n single reform was given. And now 



COUNCIL OF STATE. [18TH 1<EB. 1926. 

[Mr. G. 8. Khaparde.] 

that we are given it in very little doses, we naturally ask for more. I said 
that this does not matter' Don't take this seriously. My friend replied 
that we are not legislating for children, therefore we need not talk about it. 
That, however, is not the point. The point is that what they said in the 
First Session either in this House or in the other House need not be taken 
very seriously. Of these four objections which I have mentioned three 
already wore urged later on. This is not a new thing. That is the case 
with everything in this world. First we distrust a thing, and generally 
ridicule it. When it is urged with a little more strength, we come to 
argue about it and ultimately we come to an agreement. That is the 
process in which the world goes on. We live and learn. In the- very 
First Session of the Assembly and the Council they talked of having 
Swaraj. I laughed at that. Others laughed at that and 1 joined with 
them in their laugh. Later on, argument went on, and the argument 
reduced itself lo these three objections that I have mentioned. The fourth 
ground taken to-day by the. Honourable the Home Member is that the 
Royal Commission that the Honourable Mover has put down in his Resolu- 
tion is not the same Commission that was spoken of on the night when 
the Government of India Act was passed. He thinks that this Commission 
is something different. I myself think that the two are the same. What; 
the Honourable Mr. Sethna means is that this Royal Commission may be 
appointed any time before 1929. The date was fixed with the idea that it- 
should not be delayed beyond that date. My Honourable friend Mr. Sethna 
j^avH : "Kincjly have that inquiry made now." That inquiry, if granted, 
will deal with all the objections that have been taken here and before. 

The first objection taken is that it js possible "to make progress under 
the Act as it stands. I quite agree that it is possible, but you do not wear 
a coat threadbare. You do not wear it until it becomes thoroughly unser- 
viceable. You do not throw it away only when it becomes absolutely 
inconvenient to wear. So. I do not see why fill the possibilities of the' 
existing Act should be exhausted before a further step is taken. Such a 
proposition is unthinkable either in law or in practice. If a coat is fairly 
worn out and shows signs of being old, we throw it away and have a new 
coat made. Similarly, there are possibilities of a further advance in the 
present Act, but it has grown old to a great extent. Six years is not a 
small period now. In olden days, 20 years was a much smaller period 
than six years now. We run faster nowadays with all this new machinery, 
motor cars, aeroplanes and baloons. 5 or 6 years now means what formerly 
20 or 25 years meant. We have had experience for 5 years. 

Then they SUV that the capabilities of the electorate have to be tested. 
I do not know of any test that can be applied to the electorate. We have 
seen in England electorates which threw overboard men like the great 
Mr. Gladstone in those days. In the present days they threw 4 Mr. Asquith 
(now Lord Oxford) overboard. So electorates are not to be relied on. In 
all countries they are fickle. I do not know of any test bein^ prescribed 
for them. If T nm ignorant, I hope I snail be corrected. Bub there is no 
test laid down, so far as T know, how to examine and pass an electorate. 

Th^third argument was that the capabilities of the machinery have to 
be tested. This always frightens me. I think the Honourable Sir Alexander 
Muddiman will remember that when machinery was talked of, I said that- 
I was tremendously afraid of mne-hinery in the 20th century, because, 



ROYAL COMMISSION' OX WOUKING OF INDIAN CONSTITUTION. 101) 

in the '20th century, to eat one ounce of foo<l, you require 20 tons of 
furniture. You want a table and all the furniture and all the crockery. 
Before you eat one egg, you want 20 tables, 30 spoons and 15 forks. 
Machinery is a terrifying thing. In the 20th century, it has multiplied so 
tremendously that whenever any one speaks of machinery T get terrified, and 
run away from the place. You know the history of the present income- 
tax. It was originally introduced when T came to the Council 1o improve 
the machinery for collecting it. What is it now? It has become perhaps 
the principal item of income in our Empire and it exceeds the land revenue. 
So, this improving of the machinery leads to other things. So 1 do not 
quite understand this. The machinery is the electorate. The District 
Officers and Commissioners are appointed Returning Officers. What more 
machinery do you want? The voters are there. They are taken care of. 
They are led to the Returning Officer. What further machinery you require, 
T do not know 

The fourth objection that is taken is that this is not the same Commission 
that was talked of in 1019, as likely to come in 1929. 1 humbly submit 
that it is. My friend the Honourable the Home Member will ask : "What 
is the meaning of formulating a scheme for responsible government?" 
This is what is called the fala sruti. In Indian books, supposing it is a 
prayer, at the end you say,: "Whoever says this prayer will go to Heaven; 
a man who is unmarried and wants to marry will get a good wife; a man 
who has not got sons will get sons." This is called the fala sruti. You are 
told that you would get nil these things if you read the prayer. In the 
same way, the Honourable Mr. Sethna has given the fala aruti part 
of the Resolution. He says that we want an inquiry. We want it a 
little earlier than 1929. Why should it be advanced in date? Because 
it will lead to responsible government and self-government. That clause 
is riot the operative clause of the Resolution. It is merely 'the fala sruti, 
something added merely to induce you to read it and to follow it. That ijs 
not the operative clause. That Commission is the Royal Commission that 
has been spoken of in Parliament and out of Parliament. The other day 
His Excellency the Viceroy kindly said what the Honourable the Home 
Member has read out. T intended to rend it myself and I have got it 
marked. He stole a march over me nnd read it first. The Viceroy also 
has said that if wo give co-operation, then the inquiry which is to be 
made by the Royal Commission will be hastened. T therefore thought that 
this was an auspicious time, a propitious time for putting forward this 
Resolution. One Member of the Swaraj Party, as the Honourable the 
Home Member himself pointed out, took the responsibility of speaking 
for the whole Party and got into a mess over it. Then he said thev were 
co-operating. Another Member said that he had no faith in British Govern- 
ment, and that the Swarajists were not co-operating nt. all. T depend upon 
this circumstance that in the beginning they talked very wildly. Now, 
greater wisdom is prevailing nnd out of the non-co-operation party arose the 
Swaraj Party, and out of the Swaraj Party T am very glad to see that thera 
is n party of responsive co-operators coming to the front. Hitherto I had 
the monopoly of my views. I was a corporation sole. T was the only one 
who was for responsive co-operation, but now. T am pleased very much 
that many more people are coming a1on<?. and T nrav to God that the respon- 
sive co-operators will multiply and thereby hasten the regeneration of 
India and lead us In self-government or responsible government as TCP 



200 COI'NCIL OF STATE. [18TH FEB. 1926. 

(Mr. G. S. Khapardc.J 

call it. So far then for the objections taken by the Honourable the Home 
Member. 

The Honourable! the Maharaja of Burdwan put forward a new argument 
which unfortunately I could not understand. If I am mistaken, I beg to 
be corrected. His idea appears to he that/ you should attempt no advanqe 
unless the British people are willing to go away from India bag and baggage.. 
Uiifcss this can be. done his says you need not think of. any advance, at all. 
His further argument appears to bo you have got to wait and wait so 
long 

THE HONOI-IIABLK SIR BIJAY CHAND MAHTAB. MAHAHAJADJIIRAJA 
HAHADUK OF BritowAx: May 1 offer an explanation, Sir. I did not sav 
anything of the sort. T asked a- question of the Government, whether tho 
British wanted to leave India. There is no question of waiting until the/ 
British have left, bag and baggage, as my Honourable friend puts il . 

TIIK HONOURABLE MR. G. S. KHAPABDE : The putting of thai qucstioir 
means that ynu need not consider this proposition until you nre prepared 
to leave India, as I interpret it. If il is wrong it may bo criticised, bill 
the. idea underlying the putting of that question, " Are you prepared to 
make India over to an oligarchy, are >ou prepared to put up with all kinds 
of injustice 1 . 1 ' 1 all that is that the- Honourable Mr. Sethna has put some- 
thing so terrible before us that unless you are prepared to do that yon 
need not think of ir. 

THK HONOURABLE Siu BIJAY CHAND MAHTAB. MAHARAJADHIRAJA 
BAHADUR OF BURDWAN: Sir, may 1 rise again? I think the question was 
this. 1 was enumerating the difficulties of making a jump towards respon- 
sible government immediately, nnd as one of those difficulties I ;isked : 
Was the British Government prepared to leave India at once? 

THK HONOURABLE Mu. G. S. KHAVABDE : Well, to that Hie reply is 
thai it- is prepnraiion for leaving the country. 

r l?HE HONOURABLE THK PRESIDENT : Order, order! The Honourable 
Member has exhausted his time and I would advise him to get on with his 
own speech and leave other Honourable Members 1 speeches alone. 

THK HONOURABLE Mu. G. S. KHAPAKDE : My speech, Sir, is coming 
near its end. I was dealing with the objections that have been urged 
against this He solution and I was dealing with the last objection, that was 
taken by the Honourable the, Maharaja of Burdwan, and it was in the 
course of that that our conversation .arose for which I am very sorry. I 
still maintain that these questions were intended to make out that unless 
the British Government were prepared to walk out of India they need not 
think of thin proposition. 

THK HONOURABLE SIR BIJAY CHAND MAHTAB, MAHARAJADHIRAJA 
BAHADUR OF BURDWAN: It was not meant to convey that, it was meant to 
tell tho British Government if they do not propose to walk out of India 
that is all the more reason that the future advances have got to be most 
carefully considered. 

THE HONOURABLE MR. G. S. KHAPABDE: That is what my own argu- 
ment -was. I do not say they will give Swaraj to-day. I do not maintain 
that proposition. I agree with the Honourable the Maharaja of Bivrdwam 



1SOYAL COMMISSION OX WOHKIXO OF INDIAN CONSTITl'TION. 80]' 

or rather the Maharaja agrees with me, and our opinion is that this inquiry 
should be undertaken, should he gone into, and if it is reasonable by all 
means give us a further advance; if it is not reasonable then there it will 
end, you need not give it. So I have endeavoured as well as 1 can to 
meet -all these objections that have been taken to this Resolution. 1 
maintain that it is a proposition which if assented to and carried out here 
will do a great deal of good at the present time in India. It will shou 
that something is being done, that something is being attempted, and those , 
attempts that are being made outside to tell people that no pledges will 
be observed and nothing will be dono and you will all be led into traps- 
all those objections will disappear. Whereas if )ou did nothing, simply 
sat with -folded hands, you would give an additional weapon into the hands 
of those people whose business it is to misrepresent and to create some kind 
of misunderstanding between the Government and the people. With these 
few words I heartily support, the proposition suggested by my friend tin- 
Horn) urable, Mr. Scthna. 

THE HONOURABLE SAIYID ALAY NABL (United Provinces West: Mu- 
hammadan): Sir, I listened with a great deal of care and attention in 
the Honourable the Home Member. 1 am sorry, however, that I find 
myself unable U> agree with him either in the interpretation which he has put 
upon the Resolution as it has been placed before the Council or in Un- 
reasoning he has employed in opposing the Resolution. In any case 1 
should expect that a Resolution like this has not to be objected to or 
approached simply on the ground that technically it offends against the 
provisions of some section or other. After all 'there is some diffcreiiei 
between a court of law and a Council like this. Even a court of law it 
it finds that it is barred from hearing a certain suit or a certain claim onl\ 
on technical grounds will bo very reluctant indeed to throw it out on the 
basis of such objections, it very often finds a way out of it. Now in this 
case you find that reference has been made by the Honourable the Home 
Member to section 84A of the Government of India Act. It is said that 
the Government of India Act laid down in the body of that section tin: 
words I will not read the whole of the section but only clause 2 and 1 
will not read the whole of clause 2 but only those important words on which 
reliance has been placed. The section lays down that: 

11 the Commission shall report as to whether and to what extent it is desirable to 
establish the principle of responsible government, or to extend, modify, or restrict 
the degree of responsible government then existing therein." 

Those are the words. Now it cannot be denied, I think, that the principle 
of responsible government has not only been established, but there it is 
in practice and you will find, Sir, help in this direction from the Select 
Committee's Report on this where in paragraph 3 they say : 

" In the dedaration made by His Majesty on August 17th, 1920. there is mandated ' 
the problem for which the Bill endeavours to provide a solution. It is designed as 
the first stage and a measure of progress towards responsible government." 

"Responsible government" there it is. Now the question remains only 
of the extension, modification or restriction of the degree of responsible 
government. The word "extension", of course, means that the extension 
may be in part or the extension may be in full. So if the Honourable 
the Mover of the Resolution says .that he wants the establishment of 
responsible government, he is not far wrong. The Royal Commission may 
when it comes, Sir, after taking into consideration all the factors come to 



COUNCIL OF STATE. [18T1I i?'EB. 1926. 

[Saiyid Alay Nabi.j 

the conclusion that the principle of self-government that has been introduced 
in this country may he extended. It may corne to the conclusion again 
that it may be extended to its fullest length. So my submission is that 
it in rather a, narrow technical and restricted view to take o the Resolu- 
tion that it seeks full responsible government. A Resolution like that 
in a Council like this has to be met on its merits. Now so far as the 
merits are concerned,, you will find, Sir, that the Honourable the Home 
Member has referred to an extract from the speech of the Secretary of 
State where he used these words: "The door of acceleration is not open 
to menace". I am the last person to say that. 1 think nobody in this 
Council, not even the Swarajist Memhers oven though they make heated 
and excited speeches, means to say that the door of acceleration is open 
to menace, and I do not think that that is the position of the country 
iis a whole. There may be some wild talk about it hero and there but 
thai is not as 01 matter of fart ihe mind of the country as ft whole. But 
when referring to this I may refer also to another extract from the speech 
of the Secretary of State for India which sums up the position of the 
Government where* he said : 

" Even assuming co-operation il \\as thought that a period of ten years would be 
required to afford the data for reliable conclusions and generalisations. But I do 
not consider and I wish to make Hear my own view that it was not the intention 
-of the Legislature to attempt to shackle any succeeding Government if ;i spirit of 
> cheerful and loyal co-operation was generally exhibited on the one hand, or if, oil the 
other, grave arid glaring defects disclosed themselves." 

Now these were the two conditions. The Secretary of State- on behalf 
-of Government said that there were two conditions by which the pace 
of progress can be accelerated : one condition is that glaring defects must 
he found in tin- constitution : ;ind the other is that there must he cheerful 
.and loyal co-operation on behalf of the people at large. These are the 
two conditions; and the meaning of this is that if these two conditions 
are found to exist, then the pact- of progress can bo accelerated. Now, Sir, 
it is n question of fact whether these two conditions exisl or not,, :i question 
of fact which depends upon testimony. Now what is the testimony so 
far an the glaring defects are concerned? Five \enrs after the working of 
the reforms scheme the Government constituted a Committee presided over 
by the Honourable the Home Member. That Committee nominated certain 
people to give evidence before it ; they came and gave evidence. If 1 
may say so, they were their own witnesses ; but I do not want to take 
that narrow and technical view. They were true and honest men who had 
worked tho reforms in a loyal arid ungrudging spirit and who had tested 
material parts of the machinery . They were men who had whole-heartedly 
entered into the reforms scheme and they had ple'dgcd themselves to 
m.'iko it a success. They did their level best and tried to make it ft 
success. But then what was their experience when they had worked the 
machinery or that part, of the machinery? Their experience was that they 
oould not possibly work that machinery . They said it was ft failure. THat 
WHS the general opinion about it. That was the opinion of these people who 
were concerned with it. most intimately. Tnftfc is the evidence of these 
people, the evidence of the Ministers who bad worked it. the evidence of 
some of th'o Executive Councillors who had worked it. What more evidence 
do you want on that? Ts it not R fact which is established by most un- 
impeachable, evidenoe? Wh.it more do you want? What more evidence 



110YAL COMMISSION ON WOUKIMr OF INDIAN CONSTITUTION. 

can you find jibout the glaring defects of the machinery? That is this part 
of the case. When the evidence was over the Committee sat down to 
record its finding. What was the finding of the Committee? The finding 
was that that part of the machinery, namely, dyarchy, was neither a success 
nor a failure. That sort of finding oil course is not ordinarily intelligible 
to the ordinary man. It must be a success or it must be a failure. The 
people who were most concerned with it said dyarchy was a failure; but 
the people who heard that evidence said it was neither a success nor M 
failure. The only conclusion that any impartial body of men can come 
to on that evidence is that it was a failure. That is one part of it. 

The other part is about the cheerful and loyal co-operation, i\ sincere 
and genuine desire to take part in the reforms. Now, that is again a 
question of fact. I have heard to-day from the remarks of the Honourable 
the Home Member that there has been an absence of that sincere and 
loyal co-operation which he expected. It is a question of opinion more or 
less But if people's intentions are to be judged by their conduct and 
I do not know of any other test then the evidence 'of conduct should bo 
forthcoming and has to be relied on for the consideration of a case like 
this. What is the evidence before us, as to whether there has been co- 
operation or not? You started these Legislatures in 1921. The first 
Assembly came in and sat down and worked the reforms very well and i,o 
your entire satisfaction. You were quite happy with them; you applauded 
them and you went so far as the Honourable Mr. Sethna said in his speech 
that you recommended that the constitution may be reviewed or revised. 
You passed a Resolution in the Assembly to that effect and you wero 
thoroughly happy and you had no complaint about non-co-operation. I 
remember of course having read the proceedings that your complaint was 
that the men who were outside were complaining about the conduct of the 
Government and that they were non-co-operating, and therefore the 
country as n whole was not co-operating. J do not want, Sir, to minimise 
the importance of the Swarajists or some of the Swarajist Members; they 
are very vociferous people no doubt. But the question is, if a certain 
.section of the people remaining outside and cry and raise :i protest agaiasb 
the actions of the Government, are you justified, is it fair, is it right, is 
it the correct attitude for you to adopt to condemn the whole country 
from one end to the other? That is a position that ought not to have. 
been taken. After all this is a vast and stupendous country with teeming 
millions. You have a limited franchise; and you cannot expect people 
from one end of the country to the other, consisting of thousands of 
leaders, to be all of one mind, to be acting according to the pleasure of the 
Government, raising no voice of protest against the actions of the Govern- 
ment. If you judge the amount of co-operation by that test then I think 
you will have to wait till eternity. There is no shorter time, for it. But 
if you judge of the conduct of the people when they come to you in the 
Legislatures and have been given some responsibility, that would be the 
right test of their conduct. There yon see and watch how they are con- 
ilucting themselves. 

Now, Sir, the second Assembly came and sat. The Swarajists came 
in; they came in of course to work the constitution. It is all wild talk to 
say that they did not come to work the constitution but to destroy it. It- 
is only talk and nothing else ; they came in and took the oath to bear true 
allegiance to the Kin# Emperor, and thjey came in under the a?gis of the 
Government of India Act, 1919, to work the constitution as embodied in 



* n I'OtXCIL OF STATE. [18'J'll Full. 1920,- 

[JSnivid Alu\ Xabi.] 

I J ^n b ' Th ^. cr>ll| d!f>t Possibly take up any other attitude ,u,d they did not 
take up any other ..tlitudi-. Of.course they took advantage of the approved 

'" COUstitutiona1 



are 



, on oso peope. eope work 

representative institutions, holding power in representative institutions 
expected at every moment of their lifo to defend themselves against 
opposition. That is the very essence of tho constitution. That is the 
beauty of tho constitution. They work under the fierce search light of 
public criticism, flay m day out, and they ought to be prepared for it- thev 
ought to be prepared for (ho opposition of every Bill and measure brought 
in by them; the- opposition Benches nro there for that purpose. If th<?v 
;uv (iovernmenl servants, Dot elected by (he- people to-day, and if to- 
morrow elected people coiiu in their place, certainly they would bi> sub- 
jected to tin* same sort of criticism. That is the constitution. So to 'fee I 
unhappy or to criticise want of co-operation on the ground that there lia^ 
beer, strong opposition to all the I3ill s and motions and measures which 
arc brought by the party in power, is, I think, wrong and of course goes 
against tho fundamentals of the constitution. That, Sir, has been the 
history of tho second legislature, Whether there has been real non-co- 
operution or not again depends upon Iho testimony thai von have, upon 
the facts as they stand. You have, people sitting in 'the Legislative 
Assembly, people who are, thoroughly impartial; they have, given their 
testimony on this point. 1 read tHe othor day in the proceedings of the 
Assembly Sir Darcy Lindsay and Sir Hasil Blnokolfc speaking in high term- 
about the. co-operation of the members in tho Assembly and in the Com- 
mittees, Well, Sir, not only that, but I think tho best possible evidence 
on that point which could possibly be available would be that of Sir 
Frederick Whyto. Ho was tho 'President for about five years. He 
watched the proceedings. TTe controlled the. parties, he controlled the 
whole House. He entered into tln> hearts of the people nnd he had 
occasion to find out tho motives of the people acting in the Assembly. 
What testimony did he give? He had that unique position which only 
a man in his position could have to ho able to apeak on this point. And 
what does he say ? He says that there has been co-operation and that thu 
people arc entitled to more responsible powers. That is his verdict about. 
it. Tt is n fact that so fsiv sis the Assembly is concerned there has beo 
co-operation and it is bused upon the most unimpeachable -evidence, the 
most trustworthy evidence, evidence which cannot, he assailed. What 
inorti do \ou wanl / Do you expect that the time should como when this 
country will from one end to the other cry 'there, is co-operation and nothing 
but co-operation. " Can u state of tiling lite that ever exist in any 
country in the world? Where self -governing institutions have been work- 
ing for generations and centuries there are people who will always oppose- 
the manner and method of admiuist ration, and von cannot expect that. 
there should bo one voice uuclaiming your actions . These- arc the two tests 
that were put forward by the Se.oret-arv of State, and T claim and very 
strongly claim that these two tests have been fulfilled. If you go OH 
talking of non-co-operation, as I said before, time will never come when 
you will have the cry of co-operation from one end of the countrv to 
another and to attain that stage you will have to wait, till eternity. This 



HOYAI, COMMISSION OX WUUK1XU OF LVDIAX CONSTITUTION. 



Z 5J ^ other oounbj- cnn never bo of one mind from one end to 
the other, except perhaps when thero is war or there is some heavenly 
.calamity when people must sink their differences. neavenh 



HnnT ' S lC nolCU of the 

House. If there is any unanimity to-day on any" topic in this country 
between aU people between all associations, between all bodies of people 

Tl 1S AM T !? E * sol " tlon T that fchc P<* of P^gress should be accelerated. 
l All-India Muslim League is O f that view. The Liberal Federation is 

>oi that view Of course 1 do not know how far the talk of my friends the 
Swarajists about being the keepers of tin- conscience of the Indian 
nation is right, and how far the proceedings of the Indian National Con- 
gress are approved by the people at largo, and the politically minded 
people; but I can very safely say this much and I do not exaggerate the 
statement at ail when I say that the whole country from one end to the 

other is united on this question as it was never "united before With 
these few words I support the Resolution. 

THIS HOXOUKABLK Hiu D1NSHAW WACHA (Bombay : Nominated Non- 
Official) : 1 will not detain the House to-d.oy for more than ten minutes. 
L consider that on the whole the discussion has been going off the rails 
latterly. The question is a very simple one. We should confine ourselves 
within the four corners of the Act and find out how far the Resolution 
\vhich my Honourable friend, Mr. Scrtlma, has brought forward is reason- 
able so far as the Act itself is concerned. I must first congratulate him 
on the very able way iu which he put his own case, namely, that the 
Itoyal Commission could be brought forward a little earlier than it is put 
under the Act. J3ut> having said so much and having appreciated all that 
he said, and the method and manner, (the model manner in which he put 
the whole casu before the House) and also appreciated whatever foil 
from fchc Honourable the Home Member on this subject, I put this 
question to the House. Are we not going too fast? Are we going to have 
earlier this Commission,, which is to examine the experience gained during 
the ten years from 1921 to 1931, before Parliament can be moved to con- 
sider how it may go further in tne direction of the policy laid down by it in 
1919? Arc we going to have this Commission earlier than the date fixed 
!>y the Parliamentary Statute? We all know that from the very day the 
Act was passed there has been prevalent what you call discontent in some 
parts of the country and among some public bodies and individuals. 
But that was anticipated. It hns always been so on the introduction of 
a. new constitution. Whenever there is a reform, particularly of the con- 
stitution, what happens is this. While a vast majority wisely accept ii 
a- minority, more or less uniformly disaffected do not iarcopt it. These 
consider that the constitution is not reformed because it is not reformed 
in the way they like it or in conformity with their views. Wo know as a 
matter of fact that long ago people agitated for a reform of the constitution 
in England. 'At that period they were not so educated as they are 'now; 
education then was in nn elementary character. Tn 1832, when the first 



Reform Bill was passed, there wa-s n good deal of agitation on the subject. 
The agitation was noisily and unprofitably carried on by the Chartists 
for some 10 years. And yet it was not till 1866 or 84 years later, that 
the second Reform, Bill was passed by Parliament. Consider those 84 
y^ars and the five vears that have passed here since the Act of J919 came 
into operation. What are five years in the affairs of a nation? Time is n 



COUNCIL OF STATE. [18TH i?*Kb. 

[Sir Dinshavv NYuchu.j 

very iniporl;tiil factor to test the real effect of a change. Who will venture 
to assert that the) are adequate for a proper test? Consider what we 
have done in thqpu five years. Practically nothing. 1 do not hesitate to 
say that for the first three years we have been only beginning to feel our 
way. After the first three years had passed and the Assembly was elected 
lor a second time there was a great deal of agitation about adopting a 
policy of non-co-operation and later of a blind attempt at destruction of 
the Act. Violent wrangles were conspicuous instead of steadily working 
the Act in a reasonable way with a view to further progress. There was 
obstruction of a blind character leading to arrest which all sober-minded 
people, interested in the real progress and welfare of the country on con- 
stitutional lines,, were very sorry to witness. That obstruction and arrest 
huve not abated. They are stiJl going on; and in the midst 
<>{ such a deplorable impasse we are asked that the Royal 
Commission which under the Act should come in ]981, ought 
to be immediately appointed or considerably accelerated. 1 wish that 
Members who spoke in support of the proposal had taken pains to read r 
mark and digest the Preamble of the Act. I am afraid that during the 
last few \rars that 1he agitation is going on, those who have vociferated 
about it seem to have entirely forgotten the Preamble and given it complete 
go-by t; as it was non-existent. The Preamble is the real key to the right 
understanding of the whole Act. Parliament in its supreme wisdom, after 
long arid i nature consideration and after the Joint Parliamentary Committee 
had mad*' its report on the subject, passed the Bill. This Preamble on 
'which immense thought was bestowed is so clear and is so relevant for a 
clear understanding that, Sir, you will allow me to read some extracts: 

" Where it is the declared policy of Parliament to provide for the increasing 
association of Indians in every branch of Indian administration, and for the gradual 
development of self-governing" institutions, with a view to the progressive realisation 
of responsible government in British India." 

etc., etc., and further: 

" whereas progress in giving effect to this policy ran only be achieved by successive 
fitages." 

and further: 

" whereas the time and manner of each advance can be determined only by Parlia- 
ment, upon whom responsibility lies for the welfare and advancement of the Tndian 
peoples : 

And whereas the action of Parliament in such matters must be guided by the 
co-operation received from those on whom new opportunities of service will be cgn- 
f erred, and by the extent to which it is found that confidence can be reposed in their 
sense of responsibility, etc." 

I beg Honourable Members to consider and weigh this extract. And I 
ask them how is responsible government to progress? In the first place, 
the Government have faithfully put this Act into operation as an experiment 
in the full spirit of the Preamble just referred to for the first ten year^ 
to see how it has worked. Parliament has already provided the machinery 
which is so elastic, that it is susceptible to many an improvement. The 
Act has to be worked for ten years, so that the British people and the 
banners of the Act may fairly satisfy themselves how it has worked during 
the period laid. down and .how far responsible government can be safely 
(oncrded. Now, ?it the presort moment I admit there IP no responsible 



ItOYAL COMMISSION ON WORKING OF INDIAN CONSTITUTION. ()j; 

government iii its true sense. The iramers ol the Act thernBelves were 
HWtire that it must be so in the experimental stage. That was the very 
reason Why dyarchy was first introduced. It \vas so introduced deliberately 
and of purpose in order that the British Parliament wanted the people of 
this country to learn how responsible government should be worked and 
eventually made a reality. In other words, to test the preliminary experi- 
ment how people elected for the various provincial Councils should become 
.Ministers and how Ministers should take part in the administration of Gov- 
ernment in the matter of transferred subjects and so on, and then form 
their own conclusion how far dyarchy had succeeded to enable them to 
concede the first proper medium of self-government. That is the aim and 
object at present, till 1929. But unfortunately, in the very beginning 
a section of the elected cried out, even before th,ey had fully carried out 
the experiment that dyarchy was a "failure", that it could not be worked. 
In fact, dyarchy has never yet got a full and fair chance to be worked 
impartially. Dyarchy has been prejudged without a full and fair trial and 
at once condemned without making even the first honest attempt to work 
it in the spirit Parliament intended it should be worked. Now, Sir, Parlia-, 
ment sat for many months to bring this matter to a satisfactory conclusion. 
They appointed a Joint Parliamentary Committee, consisting of experienced 
Members of both Houses of Parliament, 1 mean Members ol Ene House 
of Commons and the House of Lords. This Committee carefully went 
into the question. They attentively heard the several deputations of the 
Indian people who had gone there to submit their diverse suggestions. 
And it was after everything has been weighed and decided and put down 
in clear and unambiguous language in the Preamble that the final report 
was submitted to Parliament and .Parliament after further mature discussion 
and consideration passed the Act. You now say that a Royal Commission 
should be appointed at once. Why should you do it? 1 ask my colleagues 
liere assembled to Ray if the material which Parliament so sincerely wished 
to collect for purposes of test is -there. Tf a Commission comes out now, 
it will have in the first instance to see i 1 they have before them nil the 
necessary material, that is, the accumulated experience of the first ten years 
on which to proceed, deliberate and arrive at their final recommendations? 
Have you been able to put before them that experience? We have I greatly 
fear not attempted to work the (Jovernment of India Act in the spirit 
Parliament earnestly wished. As T said, in the first three years, it was 
not very seriously tried, and in the last two years, there has been a hue 
and cry, ill -founded in my opinion raised in the country and a section of 
the Central Legislature has been agitating for a Royal Commission before 
the date fixed in the Act, and that without giving dyarchy that full and 
fair chance which was necessary as a condition precedent to further action. 
But nothing has been actually done so far to work the Act in a loyal and 
earnest spirit. Now, what is responsible government? You freely talk 
of responsible government}, but what is it? Responsible government implies 
the existence of a strong elerpent in the Legislature a body of experienced 
persons who can tolerably well carry on the government of the country, and 
if such persons fail, whether other men of the Legislature could take 
their place and do so. Can we conscientiously say from our experience 
that there nre persons enough in the Central Legislature here or in the 
other place f who can carry on responsible government in the way that the 
British administration has gone on for the last so many years? We have 
no such I say? Where are those persons who will carry on the government? 



-iOS COUNCIL OF STATE. [18TH .FEB. 1926. 

[Sir Dinshaw Wacha.] 

J admit there are exceptions. Those are not enough. Then what is the 
use of talking about responsible government when we have hafdiy any 
such and when our experience is yet to be fully and fairly acquired. If 
we persist in going the wrong way we shall never be qualified. There- 
tore, before you get yourself really qualified, it is premature to agitate 
Mutsidu and inside the Legislature and bring forward Resolutions of this 
character demanding ti Koyal Commission or any other agency earlier than 
J929. 1 fervently appeal to every Member of this Council to think 
suriously over the question without being carried away by the shibboleths 
and catchwords of the theatre and the market place. Jf those who cry 
aloud will calmly and dispassionately consider the question for themselves, 
if they think over the matter imperially, they will see that the Act pro- 
vides fully what ought to be done. They should wait yet and meanwhile 
educate themselves and gain the experience wanted before demanding the 
rommission. In the matter of changing the constitution, we ought to wait 
mid see how far we have ourselves proved fit and worthy; we have to show 
to the Government and Parliament that we are fit to receive a further 
instalment of reforms in the right direction. It is only after working the 
Act for the stipulated period in a manner to satisfy Parliament we should 
jo forward and demand further reforms. But what have we- done here? 
Can we conscientiously declare that we have worked the Act 
in a proper and impartial spirit? On the other hand, a hue 
Mud cry has been irrationally raised all over the country that 
the Act is unworkable. Perhaps some leaders manufacture opinions on 
their own workshop and a slavish press under their instructions and other 
KO-uulli'd public bodies cry out in the name of " the people " and "the 
Country." They cry out in the; name of the people and the country and 
*hout " the country, the people." But what is the country, who are the 
people, 1 should like to know? The majority of the people of this country, 
<ny nearly 80 per cent., are illiterate, they are steeped in ignorance, arc cre- 
dulous and know nothing about the constitution or reforms. They look to the 
educated classes for their guidance in all such matters. But what have the 
educated classes who are really a microscopic minority done? They have 
hardly worked the Act in its spirit and have condemned dyarchy 
outright and the Reforms from the very beginning, without 
even showing a desire honestly to try them in a proper and 
right spirit. They say that llic constitution should be changed, 
that the Government should be handed over to the people, 
that Government have not kept their promises and so on. I am. 
Sir, very indignant with that section of my own countrymen who ought to 
know better and express gratitude to tlie generous British Government for 
all the inestimable boons that they have conferred on the people of this 
country. I repeat, T am very indignant with them, because they have 
miserably failed to appreciate the numerous blessings which British rule 
has conferred on them. Instead of gratefully accepting the reforms in the 
spirit in which they are bestowed, instead of working the Act in a right 
spirit and trying the experiment. in the way it ought to be tried* they con- 
demn the reforms and even question the motives of Government and create 
unnecessary unrest in the country. Sir, I strongly deprecate this action of 
,1. section of my countrymen. THat is not the attitude for a practical people 
to adopt. We want to build up a national spirit. But is that the way to 
build it? I say no. A nation can never be built in that way. Everything 



fcOYAL COMMISSION ON WORKING OF INDIAN CONSTITUTION. 209 

must take time. We must go forward step by step. You cannot jump up 
to the top of a hill all at once, you can only climb up step by step. There- 
fore, we must proceed slowly, gradually and cautiously/ That is the proper 
way to reset the scale of nations. Now, what are we doing here? There 
is a superficial cry raised by some one that the reforms are unworkable, 
that they will do no good to the country. One man takes up the cry and 
everybody sheeplike follows it. That is not the way. Now, what does 
this Resolution ask for? It says that a Royal Commission should be 
appointed forthwith to inquire and investigate into the question of reforms. 
Well, we all want a Royal Commission. But has the time come for it yet? 
Have we prepared the ground and the necessary material to be placed 
before it? Has dyarchy 'been worked for the last five years in the spirit 
BO well contemplated by tho framers of the Act? Have we got anything 
substantial to show, assuming that a Royal Commission comes out now? 
We have done next to nothing, to my mind, to justify our demanding a 
Royal Commission at present. Facts will have to be put before a Royal 
Commission, so that they may see how far we have worked the Act, how 
much experience we have gained, and what real, well-founded defects have 
to be remedied. I may say that the same phenomenon now witnessed 
occurred during Lord Ripon's administration in 1882 when he first courage- 
ously introduced local self-government in this country. At that time there 
Was not enough material, nor was there a proper machinery, but it was 
introduced slowly in different places and then was gradually extended. But 
in the present case there is the full machinery ready provided. The seed 
has been sown. It has to germinate, it needs some time to grow. It takes 
time. But without waiting for a time, and without looking after it and 
watering it properly, you want a tree to spring up all at once. IB that 
the way that a gardener takes care to nurse a plant and bring it up? He 
sows the seed, he waters it daily and looks after it tenderly, and then it 
germinates and steadily grows up. The same process has to be adopted 
for the new constitution. The seed has been sown by the British Govern- 
ment, but you the gardeners would not allow it to germinate; you want to 
see the tree rise to its full growth all at once. It is indeed monstrous 
to expect anything of that kind. It is so unnatural. I do not consider 
that a nation which aspires to be practical can go on in this way. You 
have to work the Act in a practical way. Now, I would ask my Honour- 
able friend Mr. Sethna, who is endowed with good and sound common 
sense, I would also ask all my other friends in this House, are they going 
to advance? They must bear in mind that as practical politicians that 
this colossal work of reforms cannot be carried on, whether in this House 
or in the other, by sudden jerks and jumps. No. It can only be worked step 
by step. We should prove by our exertions, by our independence and by our 
practical common sense that we are worthy of further advance and that 
we are prepared to take responsible government. Therefore, I would appeal 
to my Honourable friend Mr. Sethna to withdraw this Resolution and wait 
for another three years and accumulate all the proofs that we are duly 
prepared and qualified. Parliament by itself will then appoint a Statutory 
Commission. When. that Commission comes out, you can put all the 
evidence, all the materials, before it, to enable it to arrive at a satisfactory 
conclusion. But this is not the time to ask for a Royal Commission. I 
will not further enlarge on this subject and take up the time of the House, 
but I do again appeal with all the earnestness at my command to all my 
ftfends here I. am not speaking with any indignation or in anger or wrath, 
I am speaking from a practical point of view, as a practical man with my 



210 COUNCIL OF STATE. [18TH FEB. 1926. 

[Sir Dinshaw Wacha.] 

fifty years' experience in public life, that this is not the way to go on if 
you really wish to have u constitution which will enable you to go forward 
step by step till you reach the goal of your aspiration. I repeat, wait till 
1929, work the Act meanwhile in a proper and impartial spirit, prove by 
your sincerity and industry, that you are deserving and worthy of receiv- 
ing larger responsibilities. As 1 said before, what have you hitherto done? 
What substantial materials aro there for you to put before a Commission 
even if one comes out now? Remember, Parliament is a wise body. There 
are very many sagacious und experienced men in the British Parliament. 
When they gave us the boon of a reformed constitution, they really wished 
to do. good to India; but of course they wanted us to proceed slowly and 
cautiously. That is the reason why they have deliberately fixed a period of 
ten years in the Act. But before we have really and fully worked the Act in 
the way wanted we are trying to jump to the top of the ladder all at once. 
Ho'w is that possible? Sir, I will not say more. But I would only again 
appeal to my Honourable friend Mr. Scthna and to my other friends here 
to think imperially and in ft broadminded way. They should consider 
seriously the effect of making a demand now for a Royal Commission, 
before they agree to the Resolution of my Honourable friend Mr. Sethna. 

THE /HONOURABLE MR. PHIROZE C. SETHNA : Sir, as the House is 
aware, the discussion on this motion was originally fixed for the 15th of 
this month.. But to suit the convenience of the Honourable the Home 
Member, the date was transferred to to-day, the 18th. This fact evidently 
got into the Press and also the reason for the transfer of the date, and I 
may take the House into my confidence and tell them that I received more 
than half a dozen messages from different parts of the country expressing 
the hope that because, tho Honourable the Homo. Member had chosen to be 
personally present in the Council of State that I might surely rely upon my 
Resolution being accepted in toto or at least my receiving a very satisfactory 
reply. I may assure the House I was not hasty enough to acknowledge 
those congratulations in anticipation, and I now find that T shall have to' 
await their condolences. 

Sir, the Honourable the Home Member is a personal friend of mine, 
and he has been pleased to refer to me in very kind terms, but he would 
have been kinder still if ho had met me to some extent. As it is, his speech 
carries us no forrader. Wo understood tho speech of His Excellency the 
Viceroy to mean that a Royal Commission would be granted at a date earlier 
than life date laid down in the Act provided certain conditions were ful- 
filled. I made out a case that the conditions were being fulfilled. The 
(Honourable the Homo Member thinks otherwise, ari3 unfortunately for 
me, and fortunately for him, the two very contradictory speeches of two 
Honourable Members of this House who belong to the Swaraj Party .... 

THE HONOURABLE MR. V. RAMADAS PANTULU: Question? 

THE HONOURABLE MR. PHIROZE C. SETHNA : .... has perhaps 
etrengtMened his hands. May I know what " questioned "? 

THE HONOURABLE MR. V. RAMADAS PANTULU: They are not 
contradictory. 

THE HONOURABLE MR. PHIROZE C. SETHNA: I still say that they 
are contradictory. I think I need not enlarge upon this because the Hon- 
purable the Home Member has proved this conclusively. But, Suv the 



KOYAL COMMISSION ON WORKING OF INDIAN CONSTITUTION. 211 

Honourable the Home Member took me to task for saying that the 
Swaraj Party was on thje brain of the Government, and he said that it was 
not so. I am glad to hear it. He said that it is not the Party but the 
influence of the Party that he has been considering. I hope the Honourable 
the Home Member is aware that the Swaraj Party to-day is not as strong 
in numbers or perhaps as strong in influence as it was even a little while 
ago (The Honourable Seth Govind Das: " Question ".) 1 will answer 
that " question ". 

In India, as elsewhere, the municipal elections are an index 
showing the way the wind blows, and I think we may take the result 
of the recent municipal elections in the city of Bombay .... 

THE HONOURABLE, RAO SAIIIB DR. U. RAMA RAO: What about Madras? 

THE HONOURABLE MR. PHIRO/E C. SETHNA : .... as an index 
of the elections for the Assembly next November, and I think the Honour- 
able the Home Member will find that there} will not be as large a 
phalanx of Swarajist Members in the other House to oppose him. The 
municipal elections in the city of Bombay were held on the first of this 
month. There were 76 seats. Three years ago, of these 76 seats, I believe 
as many as 40 were captured by members who labelled themselves Swara- 
jists. That number had dwindled down this year to only 27. That 
shows how the wind blows. Take again another election, the 
result of which we have heard this very day. I mean the return of a 
Member by the Bombay University in place of Mr. Jayakar, 
who was at < ne time a Swarajist, the leader of his party in the 
Bombay Council, but has now severed his connection. He did 
not want to continue in thte Bombay Council under the Swarajist* 
ticket and so his seat was contested by Dr. Paranjpye and Dr. 
Deshmukh. Dr. Deshmukh was a Swarajist candidate and the voting, I 
understand, was 1,2/54 for Dr. Paranjpye and 1,036 for Dr. Deshmukh. 
I hope, therefore, that the Honourable the 'Home Member will, as I said 
this morning, not make the other parties suffer because of the Swarajist 
Party, and that is exactly what he and the Government are doing, and 
that is my grievance. 

Tlfe Honourable the Home Member referred to what I regard more 
as a technical point. Not being u lawyer, I will not take it upon myself 
to answer it. I think my friends the Honourable Mr. Khaparde and the 
Honourable Mr. Alay Nabi have dealt with the interpretation of section 
84A of the Government of India Act. I put before him the layman's 
point of view. Has it not been suggested time after time that the date 
of the Royal Commission can be brought nearer and no legal or technical 
objection has been taken before now? It is only in furtherance of that 
view that I have asked for the immediate appointment of the Royal Com- 
mission. I said in my speech this morning that Government themselves 
had observed that there is no legal bar to the statutory period being 
lowered from 10 years to a shorter period. Perhaps my Honourable friend 
the Home Member means that under section 84A as drafted, it is per- 
fectly open to the Commission either to suggest an advance or perhaps 
even a set-back, whereas my Resolution, as he used the words, has a 
pre-determined issue for an advance. May I ask the Honourable the 
Home Member, does he or doe's any one of th!e Government Benches say 
or does* any one here or elsewhere contemplate for a moment that no 
matter what action the Swarajists may be responsible for, the hands of the 



212 COUNCIL OF STATE. [iflTH J?EB. 1920. 

[Mr. Phiroze C. Sethna.J, '-L-AiHl 

clock are going to be set back, whether the Eoyal Commiasion is held in 
1929 or in 1926?- That, Sir, to my mind is a clear impossibility, no 
matter what the Government Benchfes may say. I think the Honourable 
Sir Alexander Muddiman put my view of the case very clearly before the 
House when he said that perhaps my view was that in my opinion and 
in the opinion of those who agree with me, we have advanced so. far and 
we have co-operated generally 'so well that we think that a Koyal Com- 
mission, if we are allowed to place our case before it, would most un- 
doubtedly favour an advance in the constitutional reforms. If, on the 
other hand, they thought otherwise, they mlgjht say, "Let there be a 
stand-still for some years longer." That certainly is my view, if my 
Honourable friend Sir Alexander has interpreted it in that way. My 
Honourable friend h|as himself admitted, no matter what my friend Mr. 
Eamadas Pantulu may now say, that the Swarajist attitude has changed. 
The Honourable Mr. Ramadas Pantulu said that there has been no 
change since the Simla Session in September last, but the Honourable 
the Home Member, who has better opportunities of knowing what s 
happening all over the country, has told us that Bills have been considered 
on their own merits and passed. I presume from that that he means that 
they have been passed with the help and support of the Swarajist Mem- 
bers of the different Councils. 

THE HONOURABLE MR. V. RAMADAS PANTULU : Even before Septem- 
ber. 

THE HONOURABLE MR. PHIROZE C. SETHNA: I think I heard the 
Honourable the Home Member say later than September. 

However, what I would like to urge is this. The Honourable Sir Alex- 
ander Muddiman, in referring to the Honourable Mr. Ramadas Pantulu 's 
speech observed that he himself and Mr. Ramadas Pantulu were here by 
the "decree of Parliament." Wo do not deny that for a moment. But 
what is meant by the decree of Parliament? What do the British people 
know of India when you do not get even a quorum to listen to the Indian 
Budget debate in the House of Commons? It is the Government of India 
which dictates to Parliament, or suggests to Parliament what they should 
do. Therefore, Sir, there is no use telling us time after time even His 
Excellency the Viceroy has repeated it that Parliament will do this and 
Parliament will do that. If the Government of India are disposed to do it, 
Parliament will simply follow what the Government of India ask them to 
do, and if the Government of India choose to enhance the constitutional 
reforms, they can do so to-day. The Government of India have always 
had and have some very good friends amongst the Indians. I propose to 
quote a few lines from a speech made as far back as 25 or 30 years ago by 
an eminent Indian on the Bombay side, the late Justice Govind Mahadev 
Ranade. He said: 

41 There can be no question that a nation of 250 millions can ever be permanently 
held down by sheer force and sooner or later in God's providence, and under the encourage- 
ment of the British example and discipline the people of this country must rise to tne 
status of self-government and learn to control their own affairs in subordinate alliance 
with England. The transfer of power is inevitable." 

That is the point. But that transfer is so slow, i very 
very slow, and that is our complaint. It ought to be hastened and it has 
not been hastened for some time. I think the proverb "bis dat <jui cito 



COMMISSION OK wofiKttfa ofr IK&IAK cofrsTiftmofo. 213 

dat" is as true to-day as when it was first written centuries ago; and I 
would appeal to the Government of India not to do things grudgingly as 
they have all along done or do them only when they are coerced into it. 
Let me respectfully appeal to them and tell them that if they do so cheer- 
fully it will be very greatly esteemed and promote a better understanding 
between England and India. There is one fault which I have always found 
and the history of this country will show that England when I say Eng- 
land I mean the Government of India advising England is always slow 
and only does things when it is compelled to. Sir, I would ask my English 
friends to look to their own history. I do not propose to quote chapters 
from- that history myself, but I will read to you a paragraph, very preg- 
nant with meaning from a book published only a few months ago known 
as "The Other Side of the Medal," the author of which is Mr. Edward 
Thompson. He refers to the trouble in India and says : 

" 1 spoke of a struggle which is at its commencement. Yet may we not ask, need 
there be a struggle at all? Having chosen in the case of South Africa the wisest 
and most magnanimous course of action that ever showed a nation's greatness havdne 
at long last the promise of friendship with Ireland, and, through that finish of old 
enmity, with the United States, having long ago passed safely through the dangerous 
stages of our relations with Canada and Australia and New Zealand can we not 
settle this latest of our great imperial problems also? Or, if there must be a struggle 
before there is peace, need it be embittered?" 

I repeat my appeal : do not allow the struggle to be embittered, give what 
you can, give it soon and give it graciously. 

Sir, just one remark in regard to what fell from the Honourable Sir 
Bijay Chand Mahtab, the Maharaja of Burdwan. He seemed to think, 
as far as I understood him, that because the people of India are divided into 
four groups or parties, the Anarchists, the Swarajists, the Nationalists or 
Independents, and the Moderates, if there is a constitutional advance it 
will mean that vested interests will suffer and that there will be Bolshevism 
or greater Bolshevism in the country. 

THE HONOURABLE SIR BIJAY CHAND MAHTAB, MAHARAJADHI&AJA 
BAHADUR OF BURDWAN : I am afraid that here again the Honourable Mem- 
ber is at fault. I tried to analyse the different parties in India at the 
present moment and I tried to make out what those parties thought of the 
British Government in India. Then I went on to define the difficulties. 
Among those difficulties I pointed out vested interests. 1 did not say that 
vested interests "would suffer either at the hands of the Bolshevists or any- 
body else. 

THE HONOURABLE MR. PHIKOZE C. SETHNA : With all deference to 
my learned friend, what other conclusion could I myself or the House draw 
from that statement which he made first and which he has now repeated? 
The only presumption is that if a further constitutional advance is granted 
vested interests will suffer. I must be very dense if I have not understood 
him aright. However, I will tell him that if further constitutional advance 
is not granted, Bolshevism will come into the land perforce; you are invit- 
ing Bolshevism by not granting further constitutional advance end you have 
to thank yourselves for it. That is my reply to the Honourable Member 
and to the Government Benches. 

In conclusion, Sir, a request has fallen from my Honourable friend 
the Maharaja of Burdwan, as also from my revered and patriarchal friend 
the Honourable Sir Dinshaw Wacha, and of course from the Honourable 
the Home Member that I should withdraw this Besolution. I see no reason 
for doing so. I do not mind the fate of the Besolution. But whilst I do 



COUNCIL OF STATE. [18TH FEB. 1926. 

[Mr. Phiroze C. Sethna.] 

not accept their advice in this respect 1 want to pay a compliment to the 
Honourable the Maharaja of Burdwan by accepting the recipe which he has 
prescribed on the recommendation of his friend from the Punjab who told 
him that the English will never give unless you go on hammering away, 
and 1 therefore propose to go on hammering away until the Royal Com- 
miasion is appointed earlier than the date fixed in the Act. 

THE HONOURABLE Siu ALEXANDER MUDDIMAN (Home Member) : 
Sir, the hour is late and the House, I am sure, feels somewhat exhausted. 
I will not therefore detain it at any great length. But there are one or two 
observations which appear to me to be necessary in view of the course of 

I lie debate. Now, Sir, 1 had a sort of feeling when 1 heard my Honourable 
friend replying that he had slightly misconceived my previous speech. I 

I 1 link he may have thought that I had not been as generous and as fair as 
I might have been to that part of the Indian community which has endeav- 
oured in spite of great discouragement, in spite oi considerable obloquy, to 
work the reforms. 1 desire to acknowledge the greatness of their services, 
not to the Government but to their country. I desire to say that it is on 
those lines that India will advance. My Honourable friend told me with 
some pride that his party has been victorious in certain municipal elections. 
(The Honourable Air. Phiroze C. Sethna: " 1 did."). 1 trust it may conti- 
nue to be victorious I mean any party that desires to work with the Gov- 
ernment. (The Honourable- Mr. Phiroze C. Sethna: "Thank you, Sir."). 
Hut let me say a word to him. It was said, and I assented at any rate by 
gesture to that proposition, that India is sound at heart. Sir, I believe 
India to be quite sound at heart but India is inarticulate, largely inarticulate, 
und it is only by the efforts of those like my Honourable friend who believe 
in constitutional advance on the lines laid down in Parliament that an in- 
formed public opinion will be created in India. I trust it will not be from 
any apathy on the part of men of light and learning of his way of feeling 
that that position is not brought home to the inarticulate masses, of India. 
I would ask him before lie prides himself too greatly on the result of certain 
municipal elections to carry his campaign further, to spread his banner 
more widely and seek and find new fields of victory. 

Then, Sir, if I understood my Honourable friend aright he seemed to 
think that I was contending there is some legal bar to the appointment of 
his Committee. I. noticed he did not meet my ppint at all, that his Com- 
mission is a very different Commission from the Commission contemplated 
by the Government of India Act, because he presumes I again repeat wlbi 
all deference presumes the conclusions and prejudges the issue at stake. 
I am not endeavouring to construe the terms of the Resolution in any 
narrow legal sense, as my other Honourable friend over there Seemed to 
think. I take it in the ordinary meaning of the language. 

And as to the advancement of the date of the Statutory Commission I 
never suggested, I have not suggested and it has never been suggested, that 
there was any legal difficulty in the way. The method of acceleration has 
been clearly stated on many occasions. I again- restate it. It is co-opera- 
tion. Now, I quite understand this House feeling that to repeat this word 
in a parrot-like way is to give no real answer. But co-operation is not a word. 
It is a continued and steady course of conduct. If every Member of this 
House and in every Legislature in India stood on his legs and shouted 
" We co-operate ", that would have no effect on my mind at aH. It is by a 



ROYAL 'COMMISSION ON WORKING OF INDIAN CONSTITUTION. 215 

steady course of conduct that facts are established. It has been said that 
co-operation has been received to a considerable extent. I will not deny 
that in certain quarters it has been received. 1 acknowledge thankfully 
on the part of Government the co-operation that has consistently and steadily 
been extended to the Government by the first Council of State, and which 
I am perfectly sure will continue to be extended by the present House. 
I acknowledge that. There are other instances undoubtedly; and the at- 
mosphere is getting better. 1 hope so and I hope it may continue. I look 
to my Honourable friend to produce that result by his own efforts and by 
the efforts of those that think with him. I will not enter into the difficult 
intricacies of some parties with which I am not fully acquainted lest I 
tread on delicate ground. I trust soon that all parties may have at any rate 
one view and that is that they will work the existing constitution for all it 
is worth; and when that comes about, then my Honourable friend will move 
his Resolution in a happier time. T regret therefore I am still unable to 
accept the Resolution moved by my Honourable 'friend, and I trust that in 
spite of what he has said he will follow, as I know he wishes to do, the ways 
of peace and accept the advice of one who is older than himself who sits in 
front of him, and withdraw his Resolution. 

THE HONOURABLE THK PRESIDENT : The question is that the following 
Resolution be adopted : 

11 This Council recommends to the Governor General in Council to urge upon His 
Majesty's Government the .appointment forthwith of a Royal Commission to investigate 
and inquire into the working oP the present Indian constitution and to formulate 
a scheme for the establishment of responsible government in India." 

The motion was negatived. 



ELECTION OF PANELS FOJl STANDING COMMITTEES. 

THE HONOURABLE MR. J. THKKAK (Home Secretary) : Sir, as the hour 
is late and the HOUSG has spent I lie whole day debating an issue of the very 
iirst importance I will ii'>t detain them longer in making this motion, though 
the matter is one of very considerable importance. T move, therefore : 

" That this Council do proceed to elect in the manner described in the rules 
published in the Home Department notification No. F. 49, dated the 22nd August, 
1922, as amended by the Homo Department notification No. D.-794, C., dated the- 
30th January, 1924, 4 panels consist ing of 6 members each, from which the members 
of the 4 Standing Committees to advise on subjects in the Home Department, the 
Department of Commerce, the Department of Education, Health and Lands and 
the Department of Industries and Labour respectively will be nominated." 

The motion was adopted. 

The Council then adjourned iill Eleven of the Clock on Saturday, the 
20th February, 1926. 



Copies of the Debates of the Legislative Assembly and of the 
Council of State are obtainable on sale from the Manager, Central 
Publication Branch, 8, Hastings Street, Calcutta. 



COUNCIL OF STATE 
DEBATES 

SATURDAY, 20th FEBRUARY, 1926 

Vol. VII No. 7 
OFFICIAL REPORT 




CONTENTS 



Questions and Answers. 

Nominations to the Panels for Standing Committees. 

Bills passed by the Legislative Assembly laid on the Table. 

General discussion of the Railway Budget. 

Statement of Business. 



DELHI 

GOVERNMENT OF INDIA PRESS 
1926 



Price Five 



COUNCIL OF STATE 

Saturday, 20th February, 1926. 



The Council met in the Council Chamber at Eleven of the Clock, the 
Honourable the President in the Chair. 



QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS. 

ACTION TAKEX ox THE RESOLUTION PASSED BY THE COUNCIL or STATE 

ON THE RECOMMENDATIONS OF THE MAJORITY REPORT or THE 

REFORMS INQUIRY COMMITTEE. 

100. THE HONOURABLE MR. K. C. ROY : Will the Government be 
pleased to state what action, if any, has been taken on the Resolution 
passed by the Council of State on the recommendations of the majority 
report of the Reforms Inquiry Committee on the ]lth September, 1925? 

THE HONOURABLE MR. J. CRERAR : Recommendations Nos. 6 and 14 
are pending before the Legislative Assembly. 

Recommendations Nos. 12, 13 and 24 (c) have already been given 
effect to. 

On other recommendations, Local Governments have been consulted nn.l 
their replies have been received and are receiving due attention. In the 
case of certain recommendations, the Government of India have made their 
final proposals to the Secretary of State and his decision is awaited. 

THE HONOURABLE MR. K. C. ROY: Is the Honourable the Home Secre- 
tary in a position to state whether His Majesty's Government will be able 
to undertake legislation on the majority report of the Reforms Committee 
this summer? 

THE HONOURABLE Mn*J. CRERAR: I regret that I am not in a posi- 
tion Hb make a statement on that point. 

CORRESPONDENCE BETWEEN* THE SECRETARY OF STATE AND THE GOVERN- 
MENT OP INDIA ON THE RESOLUTION PASSED BY THE COUNCIL OP 
STATE ON THE RECOMMENDATIONS OP THE MAJORITY REPORT 
OP THE REFORMS INQUIRY COMMITTEE. 

101. THE HONOURABLE -MR. K. C. ROY: Will the Government be 
pleased to lay on the table any correspondence that passed between them 
and the Secretary of State on that Resolution of the llth September last? 

THE HONOURABLE MR. J. CRERAR : Government regret they are unable 
to accede to the request of the Honourable Member. 

( 217 ) A 



COUNCIL OF STATE. [20TH FEB. 1926. 

ACTIOX TAKE* OX THE RESOLUTION ADOPTED BY THE IxOlAX LEGISLATIVE 

ON THE KECOMMEXDATIOXS OF THE MAJORITY REPORT OF THE 
REFORMS IXQLIKY COMMITTEE. 

J02. THE HoxocjKAisLE Mit. K. G. HOY: With reference to the speech 
of His Excellency the Viceroy to the Council of State on the 17th 
September last, when he said: " The Resolution on Reforms proposed 
by the Government and accepted by this Chamber will be duly considered 
by my Government, together with the amendment carried by the Legislative 
Assembly. The conclusions of the Indian Legislature must be considered 
us a whole," will Government be pleased to state what action, if any, has 
been taken to give effect to that assurance? 

TUB HoNui'UAJiLK Mu. J. LTiEHAIi : As the Honourable Member will 
have observed from the statement made by the Honourable the Home 
Member on Thursday, the Government of India, having carefully considered 
ibe result of (he debutes in both Chambers, have decided to adhere to the 
terms of the Resolution accepted by this Council. 

IXCLtEASE OF THE (i HAXT TO THE BOSK KESEAU.CII INSTITUTE, CALCITTA. 

]08. THE HoNouKAiiLH Mu. K. C. ROY: Will the Government be 
pleased in lay on the table all correspondence, including the report of 
Mr. Littlohailcs, relative to the increase of the grant made to the Booe 
Jlesonrch Institute, Calcutta? 

TIIK HONOURABLE Sin MUHAMMAD HABIBULLAH: Government are 
unablu to accede flo the request, bot the attention of the Honourable Member 
is invited to pages 189-190 (Volume V No. 4) of the proceedings of the 
meeting of the Standing Finance Committee, held on the 12th January, 
102(5, where a summary of Hie correspondence will he found. 

Tnu HbNoiTttAiiLK MK. V. liAMADAS PANTULU : Is it a fact lhat the 
(government of India consider Mr. LittlehaiTes' deputation sufficient 
authority to report upon the Bose Institute which attracted the notice and 
secured the approbation of European scientific authorities? 

TIIK HONUI:KAB[.K Sin MUHAMMAD HABIBULLAH: He was their 
educational adviser, and the Government of India considered liim a suffi- 
cient authority to investigate into the matter. 



DEITTATION or MR. LITTLJKHAILES TO ixsrurf TIIK BOSK 
INSTITUTE, CALCTTTA. 

104. THE (HONOURABLE MR. K. C. BOY: Will the Government be 
pleased to state whether Sir J. C. Bose was consulted as to the deputation 
of Mr. Littlehailes to inspect the Institute and* whether he agreed to it? 

TIIK HoNouiiAiiLK Sin MUHAMMAD HABIBULLAH: The answer is 
in the affirmalive>. 

THE HONOURAIILK MR. K. C. HOY: Is the Honourable Member aware 
that it considerable amount of dissatisfaction exists because there is no 
official scientific Uody to report upon an institute of this sort, and will the 
Honourable Member consider the advisability of revising the old board of 
scientific advice? 



QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS. 'U9 

THE HONOURABLE SIR MUHAMMAD HABIBULLAH : As regards the 
former part of the question, I do not think, Sir, I am aware ol iL As 
regards the latter part, I will note the suggestion. 

GRIEVANCES OF POSTVASTEHS. 

105. THE HONOURABLE MR. G. S. KHAPAKDE: (a) With reference 
to No. 15-P. T., of 5th December, ]925, from the Secretary to the Govern- 
ment of India to the Honourable Mr. Chandradhar Barooah of Jorhat, 
Assam, will the Government be pleased to state whether any decision has 
been reached with regard to the grievances of Postmasters? 

(6) If the answer to (a) be in the affirmative, will the Government 
be pleased to state what the decision is? 

THE HONOURABLE Mu. A. H. LEY : A decision has not yet been reached. 
The points raised by the Honourable Mr. Barooah are being examined by 
thu Director General, who expects shortly to forward his views to the Gov- 
ernment 'of India. 

ScifOLAltSIUVS FOR TAl\IN(J IN TMIE JjKATllEK IxiH'STUY. 

100. TIIK HOXOUUAIILK KAO SAHIB Dn. U. RAMA TJAO : Will the 
Government of India be pleased to state : 

(i) how many students have since the end of the war been sent to 
England on Government scholarships for qualifying themselves 
in the leather industry; 

(ii) whether one of the terms of the scholarship is that qualified 
students should return to India so that -their expert knowledge 
may be utilized ill this country; 

(Hi) how many have since qualified themselves in that industry 
and what was the amount spent on each ; 

(iv) whether all the qualified men in the leather industry are 
employed either under Government or private companies; 

(v) if not, what steps have the Government of India taken 
to provide such of them as are yet unemployed with suitable 
appointments ; 

(vi) whether students are still being sent annually to England on 
Government scholarships for qualifying themselves in the 
leather industry arid, if so, how many every year; and 

(vii) if it is not possible to provide all the trained men in the leather 
industry with suitable employment in this country, whether 
the Government of India will consider the desirability of 
putting a stop to further recruitment at Government expense? 

THE HONOURABLE Mu? A. H. LEY : (i) I may remind the Honourable 
Member that the State Technical Scholarships were provincialised with 
effect from 1918. The Government of India can only sanction such scholar- 
ships from central revenues where the technical education relates to a 
central subject or where a scholarship is granted to students residing in 
areas under the minor Local Governments. No scholarship for training in 
the leather industry has been awarded by the Government of India since 
the war. The remaining parts of the question do not therefore arise, so 
far as the Government of India are concerned. 

A 2 



NOMINATIONS TO THE PANELS- FOR STANDING COMMITTEES. 

THK HoxoruABLK THE PRESIDENT : With reference to the- motion adopt- 
ed by the Council on Thursday last, I have to announce to the House that 
nominations to the panels for the Standing Committees to advise on sub- 
jects in the Home Department, the Department of Commerce, the Depart- 
ment of Education, Health and Lands, and the Department pf Industries and 
Labour will be received by the Secretary up till 12 noon on Thursday next, 
and that, in the event of an election being necessary, the election -will Dfe: 
htld on Monday, the 1st March. 



BILLS PASSED BY THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY LAID ON THE 

TABLE. 

THE SECRETARY OF THK COUNCIL: Sir, in accordance with Rule 2* 
of the Indian Legislative Rules, I lay on the table copies of a Bill further 
to amend the Code of Civil Procedure, 1908; a Bill further to amend the 
Legal Practitioners Act, 1879; a Bill to provide for the validation of certain; 
promissory notes; and a Bill further to amend the Indian Registration Act, 
1908, which Bills were passed by the Legislative Assembly at its meetings, 
held on the 18th and 19th February, 1926. 



GENERAL DISCUSSION OF THE RAILWAY BUDGET. 

THE HONOURABLE THE PRESIDENT: The Council will now proceed to 
tlu tirst stage, that is the general discussion of the Budget, Part I. 

THE HONOURABLE MR J. W. A. BELL (Bengal Chamber of Commerce) : 
Sir, in submitting the Railway Budget to this House on Thursday my 
friend, the Honourable Sir Clement Hindley, asked for the same consi- 
deration in criticism as had been shown by the previous Council of State. 
I have no doubt that, when he made that request, my Honourable friend 
was fairly certain, both in view of the satisfactory nature of the statement 
which he was about to put before the House, and in view of his knowledge 
of the Members of this Council, that it was unlikely that there would be 
any criticism, unless criticism of a friendly nature. But my Honourable 
friend is a cautious man 1 and he was taking no risks. He therefore arranged 
matters so that it was very unlikely that there would be any serious 
criticism at all. He handed us the Budget documents, 19 in number, on 
Thur$dtfy, and it was "announced that the general discussion would take 
place to-day. On Thursday afternoon this House sat until six o'clock, 
ill though I must admit that that was a contingency which my Honourable 
friend may not have anticipated. But at any rate we had to sit till six 
o'clock, and that means that there was only left one day in which to study 
these nineteen volumes containing as they do masses of statistics and 
figures. I do not think it is possible for any ione in the course of that part 
of one day which it is possible to devote to their study, to grasp the meaning 
of all these figures and all these statistics. I hope that in future Govern- 
ment may find it possible to allow a longer period to elapse between the 
time in which the Railway Budget is presented and the date on which it m 
discussed. 

( 220 ) 



GENEJIAL DISCl'SSlOX OF TUTS UAII.WAY llUHiKT. 

But even a cursory examination of the Budget makes it clear that the 
country has reason to be well satisfied with the position of tjio Railways 
-and with the manner in which they are administered. 

I need hardly refer to the question of the separation uf the llnilwuv 
finances from the general finances of tho country. The advantages are 
so obvious that they practically require no explanation. And now that these 
advantages have been recognised, even by those who were very strongly 
opposed to any change, the general feeling .seems to he one of surprise that 
it he method now in force was not adopted at an earlier date. 

It is not possible in the time at my disposal to deal with all the points 
raised in my Honourable friend's speech, mid I shall therefore confine- 
myself to one or two. 

I note with satisfaction, out ouly the substantial balance of earnings 
over disbursements, but also that particular attention has been paid to the 
building up of Reserves and a Depreciation Fund. This is really one of the 
secrets of successful commercial management. There are many commercial 
concerns, both in India and at Home, which in this period 'of trade de- 
pression, would have ceased to exist, had it not been that, when times 
were better and profits were being earned, they rigorously wrote down their 
assets and built up substantial reserve funds'. 

The country will Wear with pleasure of the proposed reductions in 
passenger fares and goods rates. These reductions will be foi* the benefit 
of the country and for the benefit, of the people, and 1 hope, that it will 
be possible for the Railway Bonn] to maintain them. At the same time. 
I trust that the Railway Board will not allow themselves, by any pressure 
from any source, to be diverted from their policy of building up substantial 
Reserve and Depreciation Funds to carry tWem over when times are less 
iavouarble. Reductions in fares and rates arc very important, but they 
are not so important as the building up of the Railways of the country 
on a sound and unassailable financial basis. 

1 was glad to hear from my Honourable friend's speech that (lie Rail- 
way Board were "keeping before them the recommendations of the Coal 
Committee with regard to a further rebate on export coal, and, subject to 
what I have said with regard to Depreciation and Reserves, I trust that ; t 
will be possible for the Railway Board to grant this assistance to the coal 
industry of India which is at tho present time passing through a period of 
acute depression. It will be money well spent, because n flonrshing con! 
industry will be a source of great profit to the Railways. 

With regard to capital expenditure, it is gratifying to notice the pro- 
vision made for the remodelling of marshalling yards and the improvement 
of workshops. Tt is difficult to overestimate the importance of these two 
items in tho building up of an efficient railway service. The provision for 
strengthening bridges is of greater moment than is apparent at first sight. 
Speed is.an essential element, and one of tho handicaps in this direction 
with which the Railways have to contend is the loss of time in crossing 
bridges not constructed strongly enough to carry modern trains nnd 
modern locomotives. But T welcome this announcement also, because it 
gives me nn opportunity of addressing my Honourable friend on another 
subject. If he will allow me whfen next he is in Calcutt.-i, I will show him 
a bridge, I will not tell him the name of the bridge ab the moment, 
which requires not only strengthening but rebuilding. Tt forms one c f 



COUNCIL OF STATE. [20'fH FEB. 1926, 

[Mr. J. W. A. Bell.J 

the most serious traffic problems of Calcutta, an'd the assistance of Gov- 
ernment in tho matter is urgently required. Attempts have previously 
been made to enlist the sympathy of my Honourable friend in this sub- 
ject, but 1 am sorry to say tljat these attempts have not been successful.- 
But I propose to adopt the tactics of my Honourable friend Mr. Sethna 
and the Honourable Mr. Ramadas Pantulu and keep hammering away 
my Honourable friend "on this subject, in the hope that some day he will 
yield to my importunity. 

Another problem of great importance to tho city to which 1 belong is- 
UK? (Jiilciillii electrification scheme. F trust that the report of the engi- 
neers to which my Honourable friend has referred, will be expedited MS 
the question of providing suburban accommodation for the city workers of 
Calcutta is becoming a very urgent and acute one, and nothing much can 
be really done until some definite scheme is adopted for transportation 
between the city and its suburbs. 

I would repeat thai the country has reason to be well satisfied with 
the position of the Hallways, and what is disclosed in the budget state- 
ment confirms the feeling which the community I represent have always 
had, that, in the hands of the Commerce Department and of the Hallway 
Hoard, the Railways of India are carefully and wisely administered in the 
best interests of the country. There is, of course, 'in the case of State- 
managed Railways always the danger of interference by the Legislature 
with the management. There is always the danger that in the making 
of appointments, in entering into contract, and in other matters, efficiency 
will be subordinated to political considerations. I trust that this country 
and in particular, this Council, will not countenance any such interference 
for it would mean tho beginning 1 of tho end of the prosperity of the 
Railways. 

THE HONOURABLE MR. MANMOHANDAS HAMJI VOItA (Bombay: 
Non-Muhammadan) : Sir, I join my Honourable friend tho previous 
speaker in complaining that the time given to Members to study this 
Budget was too short, and I hope Government, will see their \\MV 1o give 
sufficient time to Members to consider this important Budget. 

With regard to the prosperous Budget that is presented to us, we find 
that after providing for interest on capital and other expenditure, there 
remains a large surplus to be divided between central revenues and build- 
ing up Reserves for the Railways. I welcome the apportionment of such 
huge sums from the profits. But one has got to remember that when 
the State undertakes to work any institution on commercial lines, the 
question of making more profits should be only Ji secondary consideration. 
T do not say that it should be worked at a loss, but the aim should be to 
h'ave reasonable balances to cope with future requirements and contingen- 
cies and cover the cost of the concern, and then, whatever surplus may 
be left over should go towards the reduction of rates and fares. That 
should be the main object to be kept in view, and I hope duo attention* 
will in future be paid to that point. 

Further, Sir, I see that there is great diversity between the recom- 
mendation of the Acworth Committee with regard to the appointment 
of a Rates Tribunal and the -recent appointment of an Advisory Com- 
mittee. Instead of the object recommended by the Acworth Committee 
being carried into effect, we see that an announcement has been ma'de 



GENERAL DISCUSSION OF THE RAILWAY BUDGET. 228 

that there is going to be an Advisory Committee. I want to draw the 
attention of Honourable Members to the fact that there is a great deal 
of difference between an Advisory Committee and a tribunal. A tribunc-l 
possesses certain powers, whereas an Advisory Committee can only advise, 
and the advice may be accepted or not. The authorities may take the 
advice into consideration or may reject it, whereas the action of a tribunal 
will havp a certain effect. That is the difference between the two. 1 
hope, if it is not too late even now, that this question will be considered. 
Sir, during the limited time at my disposal, I am at a loss to under- 
stand why the working cost of the Great Indian Peninsula Railway which 
is now managed by Government, amounts to 69 per cent., whereas in 
Company. run lines it is less, e .*/,., in the Madras and Southern Mahratta 
Railway it is 60'4 per cent, and in the case of the Bombay, Baroda and 
Central India Railway I think it is somewhere about 62 per cent. When 
the State works the Railways or any other commercial institution, there 
is always the danger of the expenses rising, and I hope that in future due 
attention will be paid to keep down the expenses and prove that the 
Government also can successfully run its undertakings on the same lines 
as the companies. 

With these remarks I think that, on the whole, the separation of the 
Railway Budget from the General Budget has done very well. 

THIS HONOURABLE; RAI BAIUDUR LALA HAM SAKAN DAS (Punjab: Non- 
Muhammadan) : Sir, I congratulate the Honourable Sir Charles Innes, Sir 
Clement Hindley and the other officers concerned on the sound finan- 
cial position the Railway Administration has attained in recent years?. 
After meeting the working expenses and the interest charges, the Railway 
Administration hopes to contribute to the general -revenue of Jndin a- sum 
of 18-11 crores in the 8 years 1924-25 to 1920-27. In addition to this, we, 
are told that the Railway Administration will build up a reserve of 32-551 
crores during these $ years. We now find that the Railway Administra- 
tion includes in its working expenses something towards depre- 
ciation, It has now built up a Depreciation Fund out of which it can in 
future meets its expenditure on replacements and renewals. Even in this 
Depreciation Fund we are told there is now a surplus balance of 0-71 crores. 
All this shows that the financial position nf our Indian Railways is now 
sufficiently strong. 

The separation of the Railway Budget from the general revenue has 
guaranteed to the Indian Exchequer a certainty in revenues. The Secre- 
tary of State for India could therefore afford to give larger financial powers 
to the Railway Administration. It can now sanction works within much 
larger limits, "f congratulate it on the grant of this larger autonomy. I 
welcome the attachment of a Forest Officer to the Railway Board for the 
purpose of advising it in the purchase of timber. The Railways ought to 
place their Borders for stores with Indian firms to the full capacity of their 
output. Bub I would suggest in placing orders with firms in foreign 
countries, that tenders should be called for in rupees. If the tenders are 
called for in rupees, we can avoid a good deal of unnecessary expenditure 
due to uncertainty in exchange. It would be better if the Government 
prepare annually a statement showing the value of stores purchased in 
India and stores purchased in foreign countries. Such a statement should 
be presented to both Houses of the Indian Legislature along with the budget 
papers. 



COUNCIL OF STATE. [20TII FlSB. 1926. 

[LaJa Ham Sarari Das.] 

I congratulate the Government on the improvements and betterments 
on the Bail ways. I would like the Government to provide .quarters for 
their subordinate traffic staff in big towns as such staff cannot afford to pay 
the high rentals that now prevail. Bungalows for officers and quarters for 
senior subordinate staff have been provided but nothing much has so far 
been done for the junior subordinate staff in big towns. 

1 am sorry that the announcement of the Kates Tribunal has not been 
received well, as the Tribunal is only to advise in the matters that may be 
referred to it. I fully agree with what the Honourable Mr. Manmohandas 
Ramji has said in this connection. 1 hope 1 the personnel of the Tribunal 
will be such as to have a majority of Indians on it smd of such competent 
persons as arc in close touch with the commerce and industry of our 
country. 

I welcome the reductions announced in I bird class and higher class 
fares, but the public expects a further reduction in third class fares. Be- 
tore the War there used to be special reduced rates of freight between cer- 
tain stations where other means of transport, stood in competition. Such 
rates were withdrawn after the War with the result that the Kailway is 
losing the traffic in such cases. They lose revenue and the province is 
burdened on account of the extra traffic that is thrown on the metalled 
roads, which makes them to wear out abnormally. 

It is a malt or of pleasure to find a good start having been made in the 
construction of new railway lines. New railways help a great deal in the 
development of the country and the construction of say 1,000 miles a. 
year as announced by the Chief Commissioner will be 1 very much appre- 
ciated by the people being a boon to the country. His Excellency Sir 
Malcolm Hailey, who is very much interested in the development of the 
Punjab, is to be congratulated on getting a good many lines in his province 
sanctioned for this year. 

It is gratifying to see that Government have been pleased to take fav- 
ourable action on my Resolution adopted in this House last year on tho 
reduction of coal freight and have made a reduction of 10 per cent, on 
the carriage of coal for long distances of 400 miles and over. I thank the 
Government for this but the Government should bring the rates of coal 
freight down to the pre-war level. When they can afford to sacrifice, about 
40 lakhs of rupees in rebate in freight on coal for export, can they not 
sacrifice another Ks. 15 lakhs to bring the coal freights down by another 
15 per cent. ? More rebate is not justified on export coal yet. Reduction 
of railway freights on liquid fuel, petrol, mill and agricultural machinery 
and manure is very desirable. 

I find, Sir, that Indians are very meagrely represented in the Traffic 
and Mechanical Deportments of State Railways. In 1921 on the North 
Western Railway there were 22 Indians out of 220 in the Senior Subordi- 
nate Service of the Traffic Department. In 1925 there were 27 out of 237. 
There has been an advance of only from 10 per cent, to 11-4'per cent, in 
four years. For the same period on the? East Indian Railway the propor- 
tion of Indians has progressed from 17 per cent, to 35-6 per cent. In the 
Eastern Bengal Railway it has increased from 9-2 per cent, to 17-5 per cent. 
It does appear that on the North Western Railway the proportion of Indians 
in the senior subordinate service is the smallest. I hope that the North 
Western Railway administration will pay greater attention to the Indiani- 
sation of the senior Subordinate- Services in the Traffic Branch. When we 



GENERAL DISCUSSEON OF THE RAILWAY BUDGET. 

take the senior Subordinate Service in the Mechanical Branch we find that 
on the North Western Railway there are 10 Indians out of 312, hardly 3 
per cent, on the Eastern Bengal Railway there were 9 Indians out of 142, 
that is a little more than 6 per cent. It thus appears that in the Mecha- 
nical Branch Indians are practically nowhere. I think Government ought 
to pay greater attention to the Indianisation of the Railway Services, espe- 
cially in the Mechanical and Traffic Branches. 

There is one other complaint from which the middle class Indian pas- 
sengers suffer. There are very few important stations on which there are 
no waiting rooms tor intermediate class passengers. 1 would draw the 
attention of the Government to this grievance. On big stations I would 
suggest that there ought to be separate windows in the booking offices for 
female passengers. This class of passengers at present experience great 
inconvenience in purchasing tickets. Sir, there is one other point in this 
connection to which 1 wish to draw the attention of the Railway Adminis- 
tration. On the roadside stations the supply of water is very inadequate. 
Besides thr pointsmen and the sweeper there is only one waterman and 
the duties assigned to that waterman are taking line clears to the engine 
driver, taking out parcels from the parcel wagons, lowering the signals for 
the departure and arrival of trains and a good many other duties, and the 
result is that on these small road-side stations the water supply is not 
what it ought to be. I hope that the Railway Administrations will see 
their way to increase the water supply in those stations by some means 
or other. 

Another important point which I bring to the notice of Government is 
the increase in thefts on the railway platforms on small roadside stations. 
Being a business man I travel widely and hear numerous complaints from 
passengers who have lost their belongings on the. platforms owing to insuffi- 
cient lighting. At night time one single lamp with H very low candle power 
is burning on such stations a feu minutes before the 1 arrival of the train. 
At some stations people from agricultural areas come there early to catch 
their night trains with the result that they have to wait for hours on the 
platforms and there being no light their bag and baggage are sometimes 
stolen. And these eases are now becoming frequent and so they necessi- 
tate my drawing the attention of the railway authorities to this important 
matter. 

It, was a great pleasure to find that for the training of Indians for the 
senior Subordinate Service in the Traffic Branch a school was opened at 
Chandausi in addition to another school which existed in Bengal. If I 
rightly understand, 10 station masters are selected every year from the 
North Western Railway and sent to this school for training. So far as 
my information goes, 80 station masters went there and passed the exam- 
inations and some of them attained very high percentages in pass marks 
which were in some cases over 90 per cent. It. is a pity to find that out 
of these successfully trained station master's who passed very high in the 
Chandausi School none of them has so far got any promotion. Some time 
ago in this House a Resolution on the increase in the number of Traffic 
Inspectors in the Transportation Branch of the Traffic Department was 
adopted with a little amendment by the Government itself. So far as 
my information ^oes- (because my question on the subject could not unfor- 
tunately elicit the information sought for) on the North Western Railway 
the number of Traffic Inspectors on the transportation side instead of 
having increased has since gone down, and in case I am wrong I hope my 



226 COUNCIL OF STATE. [20T1I FEB. 1926!- 

[LaJti Ram Saran Das.] 

Honourable friend, Sir Clement Hindle\ will correct me 1 . So fur. us 1 un- 
derstand, there is only one permanent Traffic Inspector in the Transpor- 
tation Branch on the North Western Kail way, and that man has been occu- 
pying that post for the last- .10 or 15 years. During the last few years 
a few station masters and clerks from offices were promoted to the rank, 
of Traffic Inspector, Transportation. .Out of the four that were appointed! 
two have retired, one has died and the fourth was reverted. That man ha&- 
now been appointed to officiate. IH it not a pity to find that, while the- 
instructions of the llaihvay Board on this matter have been carried out 
by all other State Railways, T mean the Eastern Bengal Railway, the Oudh 
mid Rohilkhnnd Railway, now the East Indian Railway, these instructions 
have not been carried out by tho North Western Railway in this respect?' 

Another point to which I wish to draw the attention of the Government 
is tho question of raised platforms. Now, as tlic revenues from Railways 
have increased we ought to have raised platforms, whether pucca or simply 
of earthwork, on railway stations. At present there urn a large number of 
stations on which there is no platform and the womenfolk in particular find 
groat difficulty in alighting from or entering into the railway carriages. In 
the case of women who were in the family way, I hero have been serious 
accidents due, to the absence of these raised platforms. 1 wish to draw 
the serious attention of the railway authorities to this matter again. 

1 welcome the fact that on fast passenger trains the Railways have 
provided search-lights, but 1 hoar that Engine Drivers fuel some trouble 
with distant signals and home signals. When two trains are running on 
double lilies, sometimes the drivers cannot very well see the distant and 
homo signals with tho result, that tlio\ got confused. 1 hope that, tho Rail- 
way Administrations will soon do something in the matter in case tin's com- 
plaint is well-founded. 

In the programme, for the construction of new rolling stock 1 lind that 
no provision has been made for any addition to the refreshment cars for 
Indian passengers. At present, Sir, on the North Western Railway there 
ore onlv two Indian refreshment cars which run on that railway between 
Lahore and Delhi and in case one of these cars gets damaged^ the people 
have to be without it- for some time. There was a case last' year when 
one of the cars got damaged and it could not bo replaced for some time 
and in the time tables and oilier circulars issued by the Railway there 
was no intimation given to the passengers so that they might learn that 
on certain days or during certain months there would be no refreshment 
cars running on the usual trains. I hope that Government will see tfieir 
way to provide more Indian restaurant cars and also provide more Indian 
refreshment rooms. 

Another point that I wish to bring (o tho notice of this House is the 
question of unemployment. l T nomploymont is certainly one of^the chief 
causes of the unrest in tin 1 country. My proposal in this connection 'is 
that in tho Mechanical Branch of the Railways, in case wo can fin3 say 
at least 50 posts for literate apprentices in the mechanical line I mean 
the driving line the people will feel very grateful. Now,, a lot of Anglo- 
Indians are recruited in the 50-rupce grado every year as literate firemen. 
In case that is also liberally extended to Indians on a larger scale, the 
Railways will bo able to get a bettor class of recruits who will subsequently 
prove much better Indian drivers than we have at present. In the work- 



DISCUSSION OF THE RAILWAY BUDGET. 

shops before the establishment of mechanical engineering colleges in various 
provinces the Railways used to recruit literate apprentices on certain terms. 
When these mechanical colleges were founded the recruitment of these 
literate apprentices was transferred to them. I understand that it is 
through them that Railways get their apprentices. There are rumours 
that those literate apprentices who were recruited some four years ago 
and who are likely to finish their courses for the fifth year term and who 
are likely to qualify soon will not be provided with any permanent posts. 
This is a matter for us to deplore. If I am wrong in this respect I hope 
that Sir Clement Hindley will put me right. We are thankful to Govern- 
ment, for giving these boys the right training, but these boys have been 
given one certain line of training which does suit a big concern like the 
Railways but does not suit an ordinary factory owner. The ordinary factory 
owner requires an all-round mechanic. The training which has been given 
to these young boys is only on one machine. The person who has 
joined as a turner to-day will retire as a turner 30 years hence. But if 
these fellows who have been given training only in one line, are thrown 
out ut the end of five years, I think their future will be spoilt. Therefore 
f request that all these apprentices who qualify themselves and who have 
been given proper 1 raining according to tin*, railway requirements ought to 
be given permanent places at the end of their apprenticeship. 

THE HONOUIIAIJLE THE PRESIDENT: 1 hope the Honourable Member 
will not take advantage of the fact that 1 have refrnined from exercising 
my discretion to impose a time limit to speeches. I would remind him 
that only one day has been allotted and that there are probably many 
'Honourable ^Members who are desirous to speak and that if every speech' 
reaches the limit which the Honourable Member has already attained 
one day would not suffice, nor would two days, for the general discussion. 

THE HONOURABLE HAI BAHADUR LALA HAM SARAN DAS: I will soon 
bring my remarks to a close. One more point that" I want to bring to the 
notice of this House is the question of the provision of automatic couplers 
on the broad gauge railways. This scheme, I imagine, is to cost about 
20 crores of rupees, and I wish, Sir, that before this scheme is practically 
adopted it ought to be scrutinised by the greatest experts o( the world. 
We have the sad experience of the Bombay Back Bay Reclamation Scheme 
and we do not want that another blunder should be committed for want 
of competent scrutiny. 

One more point, Sir, and I have finished. That is the composition of 
the Advisory Committee of the various railways which is not quite satis- 
factory so far. I wish that the composition of Railway Advisory Committees 
should be such as they may clischarge their duties most efficiently and 
usefully. What I mean is that commerce and indusTry is not sufficiently 
represented. The composition therefore needs revision. 

THE HONOURABLE COLONEL NAWAB SIR UMAB HAYAT KHAN (Punjab: 
Nominated Non-Official) : I congratulate the Member in charge of the 
Budget but there is always room for improvement. I will only offer a few 
suggestions as some of my suggestions have already been brought forward 
by previous speakers. So I would not repeat them. We all know the 
troubles of the third class passengers. They pay more into the railway 
exchequer and I think we should pay more attention to their comforts, 
especially when there are certain fairs. They may be minor ones about 



COUNCIL OF STATE. [20TH FEB. 1926. 

[Sir Umar Ha vat Khan.] 

which the authorities do not know and inconvenience is caused. As to 
the intermediate class, now the Anglo-Indians and other classes claim that 
they ought to get service with Indians because they are Indians. So, I 
hope that the places which are set apart for them will in future not be 
so set apart because if they want service with us, they can easily sit 
with us also. 

There is one other point which' I have been thinking of bringing 
forward to-day. When a compartment ha-s already four or five reserved 
seats one has to take the permission of the guard to allow a servant. If 
all these people agree to have some one to work fpr them and if the 
servant with H third class ticket eould be allowed, it will be better in one 
way because in the third class I hero will be one man short. I think it 
would be very useful, especially if there were two passengers, say in the 
second or first class, and if they could both agree, they could have a 
man to look after their luggage at night. Then they could go to sleep 
Sometimes they have got fire-arms and money, etc., as we have heard the 
Honourable Rai Bahadur say ; and either one of them will have to sit up 
all night and keep a watch, or they may be allowed to have a servant. 
f they have three or four servants travelling with them, it would be very 
convenient if they could have one of them in the compartment looking 
after their luggage,, etc. This is the suggestion 1 want to put before the 
railway authorities, that when a compartment is already reserved, they 
should allow the servants to travel in that compartment without having 
to ask the guard. The twine thing should be done in the case of the first 
class passengers also. As to the compartments proceeding towards Bombay 
?and Baroda, there is a doorway leading from the servants' compartment 
to the first class compartment. That is very convenient, and I do hope 
that the Nortli Western Railway also will follow that example, and that 
because of the presence of the words "North Western", as in the case of 
the North Western Province, arrangements should not be made as if 
everything was pointing to the north-west in the way of general back- 
wardness. 

The Honourable Rai Bahadur has spoken fully on the subject of the 
Tnclianizution of the railway services. I think if graduates were allowed 
more positions, a good deal of the present 'agitation would grow less because 
they would get something to do. 

Finally, I want to refer to the case of rny own district, Sargodha, from 
which one has to travel about three times the distance in order to get 
to any point on three sides. Of course people in the capital of a province 
always raise their voice nbout their needs, but that does not moan that 
others have not their needs because they do not raise their voices so much. 
I hope that something will .bo done to construct a new line from Lahore 
to my part of the country . 

THE HONOURABLE RAO SAHIB DK. U. RAMA RAO (Madras: Xon-Muham- 
madan) : Sir, it is indeed a matter for gratification that, consequent on the 
separation of the Railway Finance from the General Revenues and the 
introduction of better and more economical methods of running the Railway 
Administrations, the railway property is now in n sound financial position. 
Although the Inchcape Committee' put down the net return from the 
Railways to the State at 8?, crores per annum, the average net profit is 



GENERAL DISCUSSION OF THE RAILWAY BUDGET. 

now considerably above the figure anticipated by the Committee. Apart 
i'rom the efficiency .of the administration, it must be admitted, that this 
result is also the outcome of the vigilance of the Legislative Assembly and 
the Standing Finance Committee on Railways and the proper check and 
scrutiny exercised by them over the Railway expenditure. Nevertheless, 
I consider that there is still larger scope for economy and retrenchment 
and for the prevention of leakage and wastage and the Railway Depart- 
ments must set to work in this direction forthwith and not rest consent 
with their past success. 

The first thing .'1 'would, urge, for the earnest consideration of the 
Government, is the rapid Indianization of the Railway Services. The pro- 
gress of Indionization would undoubtedly contribute to economy. Some 
measures are said to have been taken to accelerate Indianization but 
they are halting and the result so far is disappointing. Indians in the 
Superior Engineering and Revenue Establishment in State Railways are 
only about 23 per cent, of the total strength. There is no reason why 
the more educated classes of Indians should not fill the superior positions 
of Engineers and Assistant Engineers and also hold superior positions in the 
Traffic and Locomotive Departments. There is no doubt that the present 
high cost of working expenses in the State Railways in India is due to the 
highly paid European agency at the top of the administration. In fact, 
the railway officers are paid a good deal more than the civilians and they 
enjoy even greater privileges than they. Even the Lcc Commission's 
recommendations arc made applicable to these railway officers. This costly 
machinery must, therefore, be replaced by a cheaper one at the earliest 
moment possible. One of the arguments that is usually put forward against 
Indianization is that it will lead to inefficiency. But efficiency is not the 
birthright of Europeans alone. I am not one of those who want to sacrifice 
efficiency at the altar of economy. I am sure efficient men will be forth- 
coming also from among Indians, if only you give them the necessary 
facilities for training and opportunities to serve. While Indians have dis- 
tinguished themselves as civil engineers, electrical engineers, mechanical 
engineers and so on and are 'holding high positions under Government as 
such, will it be difficult for them to acquire the necessary knowledge 
and capacity to fill a Railway Engineer's place? After all, Railway officers 
are born and not made. If other nations like Japan, Germany and 
America have been able to train and turn out Railway officers in no way 
inferior to Englishmen, why should not India do likewise? In America, 
very great attention is paid to railway training. In the University of 
Illinois, for instance, an elaborate course of training in railway transporta- 
tion, railway economics, and railway engineering is provided end successful 
students after three or four years' training are given the degree of B.A. 
in Railway Economics, and B.Sc. in Railway Transportation or Railway 
Engineering. The Railways help such Universities by providing them with 
lecturers from the railway staff and by recruiting men on their staff from 
the students trained at such Universities. Why should not the Govern- 
ment of India make some such arrangement as exists in America between 
the Indian Railways they own and the Indian Universities they control? 
Even a small sum from the Railway Budget spent in tfils way annually 
would help a great deal in solving the problem of Tndianization more 
easily. The railway schools we now have give training to railway employees 
already in service, but for those not in railway employ but wishing to be 
trained for railway service, there are no facilities at all in existence in this 



30 COUNCIL OF STATE. [2()Tii FEB. 1926. 

[Dr. L'. Kama liao.] 

- country. I hope the Government will consider this aspect of the question 
when the proposed Railway Staff College is going to be established at Dehra 
Bun. 

Now, Sir, corning to the passenger traffic on Railways, 1 must say that 
the existing passenger fare is abnormally high. The time has arrived when 
we must consider the question of reducing the railway fare and providing 
.0, uniform rate for all Railways. A small beginning has no doubt been 
made in the matter of reduction of fare but the relief given is miserably 
poor and niggardly. The South Indian Railway Company, for instance, 
has made a very meagre reduction from 3J pies'to 3J pies, I.e., -]- pie per 
mile for all distances in the third class fare. The Company might as well 
bring the fare at least to the level of the Madras and Southern Mahratta 
Railway rate, namely, 3 pies per mile for 1 100 miles and 3 pies for 
additional distances. In so far as the fare for first and second class is 
concerned, the Company has adopted the rate prevailing on the Madras and 
'Southern Mahratta Railway. There is no dearth of third class passenger 
traffic on the South Indian Railway. In fact, according to the Company's 
Budget Memorandum, third class traffic is 98-8 per cent, of the passenger 
traffic and brings in about 92 per cent, of the receipts. So, the lower the 
nite, the more the traffic, and tho greater the yield. . Again, Sir, in the 
Proceedings of the Standing Finance Committee for Railways dated 20th 
January 1920, Volume II, No. 0, I find it stated that there is no Intermediate 
class on the South Indian Railway . There is, I submit, Sir, all intermediate 
class provided ou the Ceylon Boat mail. Quite recently, at a, meeting of the 
Advisory Committee of the South Indian Railway, tho question of reduc- 
tion of the intermediate class fare was also raised. In view of the conges- 
tion of passenger traffic in the third class, an intermediate class is 
absolutely necessary on that Railway, so that the middle class people 
travelling long* distances may avail themselves of it. I cannot understand 
why a total denial of even the existence of an intermediate class on the 
South Indian Railway has been made by the Government in their Proceed- 
ings. The existing rate for intermediate class is 7- pies per mile and 
when a proposal was made to reduce the fare from 7 pies to 6 pies per 
mile on mail trains and 4 pies on other trains, the Agent appears to have 
expressed the opinion that intermediate accommodation was provided only 
.as an experimental measure and the effect of other reductions in fares, 
namely, 2nd class, must be seen before considering this proposal. This 
is what u member of the South Indian Railway Advisory Committee 
writes in The Hindu of 10th IVbruary, 1920: 

" This reply reveals the attitude of the Railway administration towards providing 
intermediate class accommodation. It appears to me they want to make out a case 
that intermediate class accommodation is not popular and thus to put a stop to it. For. 
with 7 pies per mile for intermediate class in the Boat mail and 9 pies per mile for 
the second class in the Trivandrum Express trains, many would naturally prefer the 
second class in Express trains to intermediate in the Boat mail and convenient 
statistics will not then he wanting to show that the intermediate class is not popular." 

This is really an unfair method for the Hallway administration to pursue 
. and I would like to know in the first place whether the Government- arc 
aware of the provision of intermediate class on the South Indian Railway 
and if they are aware, as they must be, how are they going to reconcile 
that statement they h^ve made in the Bail way Financial Committee's 
report that there is no intermediate class on the South Indian Railway? 



GENEUAL DISCUSSION OF TUB UAJLWAY BUDGET. 31 

If it was an experimental measure, why not say so? How are the Honourable 
Members in this Council and the public outside, who are unacquainted 
with Madras, to know about the experiment that is being carried on nnd the 
success or otherwise thereof, when an authoritative document like the 
.Railway Finance Committee's Proceedings gives a. totally different version, 
and denies the very existence of an intermediate class on that Railway? 

Let me now pass on, Sir, to the Madras Suburban truffle o the South 
Indian Railway. This question, I must point out, is correlated with the 
problem of overcrowding in Madras. A close study of the analysis of 
passenger traffic on the South Indian Railway reveals the fact that the 
Suburban traffic has increased considerably during the period 1910 14. But 
the present prohibitive rate for season tickets has practically given a set- 
back to the relief of congestion in Madras. It is inadvisable on the part 
of the Railway Company still to continue the war time rate and not attempt 
to reduce the fare for season tickets. A substantial reduction in the season 
ticket rates, a faster train service than at present exists and the provision 
of fi better and more convenient type of rolling-stock will, I am sure, go 
to solve the housing problem in Madras half-way at least. This brings mo 
011 to the subject of doubling the railway lines and the Electrification ol 
the Suburban trains. The first of the above schemes has, I notice, just 
been undertaken imcl I am glad to find that a sum of Us. 54-50 lakhs has 
been provided in the Budget for Madras improvements. The Electrification 
Scheme, I hope, will also be pushed through simultaneously and not be 
made to drag along for an indefinite length of time. 

In regard to the construction of new lines, I am sorry to observe that 
the long-projected line between Mangalore and Hassan has practically been 
abandoned for the time being. In reply to my interpellation on the subject 
the other day in this Council, the Honourable Mr. Ghadwick said -that its 
financial prospects do not justify the const ruet ion of the line at. present. 
The above line was originally conceived for tapping the. planting area on 
the Western frontier of Mysore and for linking up that inland province 
with the sea-coast and providing her with a direct, communication with the 
sea-board. These purposes still remain to he fulfilled or in other words, 
Mysore still lacks an outlet for her produce in general and for her coffee 
in particular, nine-tenths of which always finds its way to Mangalore in 
spite of the defective means of transport now available. Not a little traffic 
now passes between the two places and a railway is bound to stimulate 
it contributing to the advantages of both the countries concerned. Till 
recently, the Assam Bengal Railway was being worked at a loss. That 
Railway's Budget Memorandum says: 

11 In 1925-26, for the first time in its history, the Assam-Bengal Railway share- 
' holders, were under the terms of working contract entitled to surplus profits." 

Why was this Railway opened then and why is this Railway maintained 
still, though working at a loss all along? Is it; not in the interests of the* 
European planters of Assam? My own district of South Kanara is very 
poor in ihilway communications. All railway communications end witli 
Mangalore. The interior still remains unexplored and uiiserved. A 'line 
from Mangalore to Goa is sadly wanted. If one wants to go to Bombay, 
he must go by steamer from Mangalore or via Bangalore and Poona taking 
n very circuitous route. Stoamer service, especially in rough weather and 
rainy season is seldom availed of. I hope the Government will see their 
way* to give us some relief in the matter of Railways in the near future. 



32 COUNCIL OF STATE. [20TH FEB. 1926. 

[Dr. U. Kama Bao.J 

The comforts of the travelling public are not properly attended to Jn 
most of the Hallway Administrations, bo far as the upper classes are 
concerned all is well with them. With regard to third class passengers, 
it is really a monstrous and at the same time pitiable sight to see them 
penned in like cattle in every compartment, even to the point of chok- 
ing, it is really cruel to admit more passengers than accommodation 
would permit. It may pertinently be asked: " Why do they rush in like 
that"? The answer is "When is the next train to go? Is it not 
after another twelve hours that the next train leaves? " The i'act of the 
matter is that Railway Administrations are unwilling to run more trains 
partly from a sense of false economy and partly from want of rolling 
stock. Again, no arrangement has been made for supply of meals to 
Indian passengers in long-distance trains. There ought to be an Indian 
restaurant car, as there is a, European restaurant car, attached to those 
trains. The Indian buffet will not do, -as it provides only refreshments. 
At some junction stations, meals can be had but it is impossible for one 
to take his meals within the short time the train stops. Further, there 
appears to l)o no kind of sanitary check or control exercised ove-r those 
places. There is no separate sanitary staff in any of the Railways. There 
are petty vendors of edibles, fruits, -etc., in every station who are rtll 
licensed by the Company. I would like to know for what the license is 
issued. Is it issued merely for them to enter the railway premises and 
sell any stuff they like? How much is being collected from these people 
and how is the amount utilized? Why should not the Railway Adminis- 
trations set apart this sum for the maintenance of a sanitary staff to 
enforce sanitary conditions on these licensed vendors. These vendors with 
their unclean habits, with their old foodstuffs, rotten fruit exposed for 
sale and subjected to the ravages of fleas and flics must really be revolting 
to the sanitary conscience of the passengers and must be endangering their 
health considerably. The waiting rooms or third class waiting sheds as 
they are called, are too small to accommodate all the passengers. The 
retiring rooms for upper class passengers at junction stations are meant 
only for Europeans and are available to the Indians only in their absence. 
There is racial discrimination eveji here. The Railway Administrations 
must first look to the comforts and conveniences of passengers before 
they begin to count their profits. I appeal to the Honourable Member 
for Railways to insist on Railway Administrations not to overlook this 
important duty they owe to the passengers. 

Lastly, Sir, I come to the question of the health of the railway staffs 
themselves. Medical relief on Railways is in my opinion very inadequate. 
Out of about 39 Railways, there are only about 10 Railways who have 
got some sort of medical establishment of their own. The superior staff 
.of medical officers arc in all about 70, which is verv insufficient to ad- 
minister to the needs of a vast railway population. I am glad the Gov- 
ernment have recognized their inaction if not negligence in the matter for 
so long -a time and are anxious to make amends. I do appreciate the 
sentiments expressed in the speech of the Honourable Sir Clement Hindley 
delivered the other day, which runs as follows: 

11 In the direction of improvement in health and surroundings, there is much to 
be done and during last year we have had a senior administrative medical officer on 
special duty to study the problem on the North Western Railway. The object of 
his investigation has been to devise a better organization for medical treatment of 



GENERAL DISCUSSION OF TUB BA1LWAY BUDGET. 233 

ethe staff on that Railway and for dealing with public health problems in Railway 
settlements. We have his report now under consideration and I hope, in the course 
of next year we shall be able to bring about the desired improvement, for, we are 
satislied that improvement is necessary. The officer referred to has visited practically 
every Railway in India and has made a careful study of the medical arrangements on 
each ot them. His work has assisted in making it clear that a great deal has yet 
to be done in studying the incidence of sickness and disease amongst Railway employees 
and apart from the obvious obligation to give these men adequate opportunities of 
-treatment, the subject has its commercial aspect in the loss of working time which 
at present preventible disease entails." 

These are weighty words indeed and I trust Government will translate 
them into action and thus ensure the health and well-being of their em- 
ployees ere long. 

THE HONOURABLE SIR ARTHUR FROOM (Bombay Chamber of Com- 
merce) : Sir, as a preface to a few remarks I wish to make on the Railway 
Budget, I congratulate the Honourable the Commerce Member, and through 
him the Chief Commissioner for Railways and his staff, for the very 
admirable way in which the Budget has been drawn up and the form in 
which it has been presented to this Council. In perusing the figures given 
in the Budget and more especially the references to them in the speeches 
of the Honourable the Commerce Member in another House and, in this 
House, of the Honourable the Chief Commissioner for Railways to give 
him the full honour to which he is entitled by reason of his recent nomina- 
tion to this Council an honour lately attached but not yet obliterated I 
clearly recognise a certain finger in the pie. The finger is that of my old 
friend Mr. Sim whose appointment to the Railway Board was the Central 
Board of Revenues' loss but the Railway Board's gain. 

The final results of the financial year 1924-25 were extremely gratifying 
and must have induced a pleasing glow in the stalwart frames of the Hon- 
ourable the Finance Member and of our friend here the Finance Secretary. 

The revised budget estimates for 1925-26 are perhaps not quite so com- 
forting, but I sincerely congratulate the Railway Department, and all those 
concerned with it, in that the difference between the revised estimated 
balance and the estimated balance submitted to us about a year ago shows 
a falling away of only 35 lakhs and that A during a year of what we all know 
to be one pf much trade depression. That the Finance Member is likely 
to receive from Railways only 16 lakhs less than he was led to expect ITe 
would receive should not elicit even the smallest of growls from him, 
knowing, as he does the extreme dull days of trade through which we have 
been passing for many months will affect adversely the excess balance 
over 3 crores of which the General Revenues receive one-third. Some of 
us, if not all of us, in this Council can appreciate keenly the difficult times 
which the Railways in India have gone through and are going through in 
the current financial year. While perusing the figures given on the revised 
estimates for the current year 1925-26, I cannot find for how many months 
or up to what date actual figures are forthcoming; I trust that the revised 
estimated earnings for those months of the year for which actual figures 
cannot be yet obtained are on ;a sufficiently conservative basis. 

The budget estimates for 1926-27 are extremely interesting, and this 
.Council is of course aware that to a large extent they must necessarily be 
speculative. I am an optimist by nature and I admire the optimism of 
the Chief Commissioner, in describing the present conditions as favourable 
and in anticipating a favourable monsoon, and I sincerely hope his optimism 
jo he justified.. 



234- COUNCIL OF STATE. [20iH FEB. 1926^ 

[Sir Arthur ibroom.J 

Turning to the Capital Budget of 1925-26, I am sorry to see that ther 
net grant of some 23 crores for the current year is not likely to be spent 
but will fall short by some 3J crores and 1 trust that the old bogey of 
programme revenue is not responsible in any way for this. To my mind 
it is most essential that there should be no slackening in the work of tha 
improvement of the permanent ways, of the reconstruction .and where 
necessary the strengthening of bridges, of providing up to date and 
economical locomotives and rolling stock, in short in the whole work of 
bringing our Railways up to the highest state of efficiency possible. By 
this means, only, can we look for further improvement in handling passenger 
traffic of all classes with comfort, safety and expedition and in dealing 
with the transport of goods rapidly and promptly in order to avoid conges- 
tion, which in past years has been a serious 1 drawback to the trade of this- 
country. 

The electrification of the Eailways in .and about the large railway 
centres and termini is a matter of great importance; Bombay, as pointed 
out by the Honourable the Commerce Member and the Chief Commissioner, 
is showing the way and, there not only has the Harbour Branch of the 
Great Indian Peninsula Eailway been open for some time with an electric 
service but one of the suburban lines of that Eailway is also running 
trains whose motive power is electricity. We are anxious to go forward 
as quickly as wo can with this in Bombay and I hope that other provinces 
will follow our example. 

Not least among the pleasing features of this Budget is the reduction 
of (passenger fares and also the proposed reduction of the long distance 
freight on coal. This question of a reduction in existing coal freights 
was debated in this House last September on a Ecsolution, brought for- 
ward by my friend, the Honourable Eai Bahadur Lala Earn Saran Das, 
which was passed without a division. And here may I digress for one 
moment. Tn his speech introducing the Eailway Budget in another place the 
Honourable the Commerce Member expressed his thanks to the Standing 
Finance Committee for Eailways, composed almost entirely of non-official 
Members of the Legislature, for the great assistance accorded by that body 
in framing the Budget. In fact he pointed out that the Budget was one 
recommended to the Legislature by a number of its elected representatives ; 
and yet recently in this (House we heard speeches to the effect that ro- 
progress was possible under the present constitution. In this House we 
have passed many recommendations the values of which have been acknow- 
ledged by Government and which have been acted upon. What about 
Agriculture to examine which a Eoyal Commission has been appointed, 
what about the Skeen Committee of which an Honourable Member, un- 
fortunately not '.present is a Member. Our advice has frequently been: 
sought by Government. And now Government has acted upon our Eeso- 
lution in favour of a reduction in the long distance freight on coal, although, 
I would remind you, no doubt for their own very good reasons, tn'e Eesolu- 
tion was not received with open arms by the Railway Department. And 
yet there are some who say we make no progress and can achieve nothing 
under the present constitution. 

. I. listened with .interest the other day to the Chief Commissioner's state- 
ment of open line works directed towards a more efficient handling of 
.existing traffic and to meet and foster a natural expansion of traffic. I 



GENERAL DISCUSSION OP TIIE RAILWAY BUDGET. 235 

have always held the opinion and have expressed it on more than one 
occasion that the solution of a congestion in passenger and goods traffic 
does not lie in supplying your railways with more rolling stock to the extent 
of choking them but in improved facilities for the rapid and effective hand- 
ling and moving of the existing stock which at the same time should be 
brought up to date. I am glad to see that the Eailway Board continues 
to give close attention to this important matter. . I notice that a consider- 
able sum is to be apent on the remodelling of Victoria Terminus at Bombay^ 
which I know to be necessary to meet growing traffic requirements. May I 
ask my friend opposite if any decision has yet been arrived at as to where 
the terminus of the long distance traffic of the Bombay, Baroda and Central 
India Railway, is to be located when Colaba station is closed? 

Honourable Members of this House arc no doubt aware that Viscount 
Inchcape has recently paid a brief visit to India a holiday trip and not a 
business or political one as has been suggested in some quarters and I 
feel suro that had ho been able to extend his holidays he would have been 
the first to congratulate the Eailway Department on the achievements 
attained during the three years since the hardworking Inohcape Committee 
made its report. It is exceedingly gratifying to learn from the Honourable 
the Commerce Member's speech in the other House that the results of the 
past three years' workings of our Railways have exceeded the figures which 
the Inchcape Committee suggested should be aimed at. 

Sir, I do not wish to take up more than rny fair share of the time allotted 
. to Honourable Members for the discussion of the Railway Budget. At 
the beginning of my remarks I congratulated the Railway Board on the 
way in which the Railway Budget has been presented. I have however 
one suggestion to make, which is that this small white booklet described 
in the Note as the "Budget Proper" should be printed in a larger form 
say of the size of the 'pink books of the estimates. The printed figures in 
the white booklet are exceedingly small and bearing in mind that wo have 
been described as a body of elderly statesmen it can be readily imagined 
that the sight of some of us is not as keen as that of our younger brothers 
and it is a difficult matter to peruse figures which almost necessitate a 
magnifying glass to read them. 

In his speech the Honourable Sir Charles Innes said that this is the 
last Railway Budget which he will defend in the Legislature. This I feel 
sure all of us regret exceedingly. I wish he had been able to be present 
here this morning, but I have heard on very good authority, first-hand 
authority, that the regret wo feel in not seeing him hero is moro than 
shared by the Honourable Member himself. He had been called away 
to attend some other meeting which he told me he could not possibly get 
out of. The Legislature will miss him keenly when he goes, but I will 
not say more about this now as he has not gone yet. I do not think ho 
will find much difficulty in defending I use the Honourable Member's 
own words the Railway Budget before us. The present financial year 
has been and is still one of very considerable trade depression; we hone 
for brighter conditions in 1926-27, and under the circumstances I feel that, 
although there may be criticisms the Honourable the Commerce Member, 
tHe Chief Commissioner for Railways, and the whole of the Railway 
Department cannot be fairly attacked on their Budget generally^ but on 
the contrary that they will receive very many congratulations on the results 
achieved. 



236 COUNCIL OF bTATE. [20TII FEB. 1926. 

THE* HONOURABLE Sin B1JAY CHAND MAHTAB,: MAHARAJADIIIRAJA 
BAHADUR OF BUKDWAN (Bengal : Nominated Non-Official) : Sir, I shall detain 
this House for a very few minutes. In an academic discussion of this 
kind one gets an opportunity of conveying to the Government various 
aspects pf railway administration in India. I jsholl however confine 
myself to two or three snmll matters which relate mainly to the province 
to which 1 belong. First of all, I should like to ask the Honourable the 
Chief Commissioner for Railways whether the provision to be found m 
page 16 of the Eastern Bengal Railway Budget for the conversion into 
broad gauge from Parbatiporo to Siliguri means that he will complete the 
conversion into broad gauge from Sealdah to Siliguri by the end of the 
year for which the Budget has been presented. 

Now I shall just bring to his notice two matters which I think call 
for attention. As we all know, motor traffic is very much on tho increase 
in the mofussil and only a short while ago, in fact just before I unfortu- 
nately got ill, I had to go up from Calcutta into the interior and coming 
to one level crossing at night it was only about 8 o'clock in the evening 
and the level crossing near a wayside station, one was told that the orders 
were that after the last passenger train had passed that that particular 
level crossing was not to bo opened. Of course I being the landlord of the 
whole of that area I had no difficulty in getting the man to open the 
crossing for me, although perhaps under the Railways Act I might have 
been run in. But I do think that in view of the increasing motor traffic 
better arrangements arc necessary, and that this plea that after the last 
train has passed that particular level crossing is noli to be opened to motor 
traffic until the next morning is a bit thick. 

I welcome the provisions in the Railway Budget for the improvements 
of the marshalling yards and workshops in largo railway stations; but I 
may remind Sir Clement Hindley when he was not an official of Govern- 
ment, when he was the Chief official of a railway now officialised, that in 
recent years the railway stations that have been constructed by the East 
Indian Railway have paid more attention to goods traffic than to the con- 
venience of the passengers, and I can point out to him dozens of railway 
stations in Bengal proper where although there is a cover over the heads 
of the passengers and although the area covered is by no means small, 
in the monsoon it gives little, in fact no protection from rain, and I there- 
fore wish to draw the attention of tho Honourable the Chief Commissioner 
that in future development of the railway programme more attention 
should be paid to a better style of railway stations, especially on the East 
Indian Railway. When I recollect the old railway station with pillars that 
used to bo at Burdwan, very like some of the railway stations upcountry, 
and when I compare that with the one that now exists there I must say 
it is a sad difference because even a big railway station like that of 
Burdwan gives little or no protection from rain to passengers waiting on 
the rplatform, and it is a matter to which I should like to draw t{ie atten- 
tion of the Government 

These are all the observations I have to make on the Railway Budget. 

THE HONOURABLE MR. P. C. DESIKA CHART (Burma: General): Sir, 
I have been reading the proceedings of the meetings of the Standing 
Finance Committee for Railways. We had not enough time to go thoroughly 
into the facts and figures which are given. Having regard to octses like 
mine I mean the new members who we not familiar with the foots 



GENERAL DISCUSSION OF THE RAILWAY BUDGET. 237 

figures, more time for preparation should have been given with a view to 
find how the facts and figures stood with reference to the Burma Railways 
I casually went through the pages and strange to say I came across at- 
pages 69 and 70 of the proceedings of the Finance Committee for Railways- 
some figures which go to show that there is a concession for passengers 
travelling beyond 300 miles. But what do I actually find? That the so- 
called concessions were no concessions at all because neither the Southern 
Shan State Railway nor the Myohaung Lashio Branch extend to anything 
like 300 miles. One is only 85 miles and the other about 173 miles. I 
tried to find out whether this concession is extended to people who travel 
along other lines and then proceed along these hill lines, but as a matter 
of fact on working it out 1 found there were no concessions at all even in' 
the case of persons who travel more than 300 miles. I wish to point out 
this fact because if one comes across figures like these which have no mean- 
ing, and statements of concessions which are really no concessions at all, 
one would have to p through the budget statements with a certain amount 
of scrutiny as regards the other figures which are laid before us. It is a 
misnomer to say that a concession exists as regards these two lines. The 
concession can never exist because they do not extend to anything like 
300 miles. I wanted, before going any further, to deal with that aspect 
of the figures because we have not had time thoroughly to scrutinise the 
figures. Wo have to take the figures as they are without a critical study, 
and find out if the conclusions arrived at by the member who is responsible 
for the administration of the Railways have been correct. From a cursory 
glance at tho figures 1 find that, when separating railway finance from 
general finance, the separation was effected at a time when it was expected 
to give a good advantage to railway finance, and in consequence a condition 
of things exists now which is a matter for congratulation. As it is we 
have got about two crores of rupees in excess of the estimated amounts 
available in the first three years after separation to the Reserve Fund, 
and in the Depreciation Fund we have got plenty and there is no need to 
be anxious about the Reserve Fund being drawn upon to advance money 
to the Depreciation Fund, at least in the near future. I wish to point out 
that there is a large amount available out of the Reserve Fund for one of 
the purposes for which that Reserve Fund is intended, that is for the pur- 
pose of the reduction of rates of fares and freights. We find also a sum 
of Rs. 123 lakhs and another sum of 40 lakhs set apart for the reduction of 
fares. All these figures put together give me an impression that the rail- 
way administration has been niggardly in making concessions for the poorest 
classes of people who contribute a very large share, nearly 50 per cent, to 
the revenues of the Railways. The first relief that ought to be given out 
of the amount available for such a purpose should be to the people who 
stand most in need of it and to the people who contribute the largest 
share of it. Concessions are sought to be granted only to passengers travel- 
ling beyond 300 miles, and the concession also is very small because it 
applies mostly to passengers travelling by mail trains. Most of the poorer 
class of people who travel under 50 miles, that is the average Indian, have 
necessarily to go by the ordinary trains and not the mail trains. Mail 
trains do not stop at ordinary stations. Generally *fchc run on the mail 
trains, from one stop to another is on the average over 50 miles. It may be 
a little more or a little less, but it is generally more than 50 miles, so the 
concession which is intended to be given to people travelling by mail trains 
is not really a concession for the class of people who have the first 



238 COUNCIL OF STATE. [20TH FEB. 1926. 

[Mr. P. C. Desika Chari.] 

preference in claiming relief, that is the mass of the Indian population who 
contribute the largest share of the revenue. As regards the concessions 
proposed to be granted to first and second class passengers, that is merely 
a business proposition. It is expected that it is likely to bring in revenue, 
not now, but in the near future to cover up any deficiencies that may arise 
by the grant of those concessions, so that need not be taken into account 
in the matter of granting relief to the ordinary third class passenger in 
ordinary trains. I want to make it clear that the relief, if any, is to be 
given in the largest measure to the masses of the population who travel by 
the ordinary trains. It does not matter if the mail train fare is kept as 
it is, but the whole of the amount set apart for the relief of third class 
passengers o^ight to go to the ordinary third class passengers because it 
would give relief to the largest number of people. That is as regards the 
fares. As regards the reduction in freight, I find some relief is sought to 
be given to the coal industry in the transport of coal. It is a very good 
thing in itself because that would, to some extent, help the pioneer 
industries in this country in getting the coal which is necessary for 
industrial and manufacturing purposes. But it is also a relief intended to 
be given to the rich man. I would suggest that the first consideration of 
the railway administration ought to be to give relief to the poorest people, 
and having regard to this principle, it is better if the amount set apart for 
this purpose is allotted for the grant of some sort of relief in the transport 
of rice and other food-stuffs of ordinary consumption which are wanted 
by the generality of people, by the mass of the population. 



Then as regards the purchase of stores, I find my Honourable friend from 
Calcutta has been referring to the tendency on the part of the Legislature 
to interfere with the Railway Administration and to make it less efficient, 
and lie warned the House against interfering with the administration on 
purely political considerations. I am not going into this question of the 
purchase of stores from the purely political standpoint. The matter has 
been dealt with by a Committee as early as 1919, the Stores Committee, 
and the recommendations of that Committee have been accepted. I only 
ask that it may not be made to appear by the working of the recommenda- 
tions of that Committee that the Railway Administration want to make a 
point out of some small loopholes that may be available. It is quite possi- 
ble to defend any position, but I would say that it is necessary to lead the 
people into confidence when the recommendations are carried into effect. 
I refer to this because there is a general impression that there is a tendency 
to prefer to go outsido India or to give contracts to Europeans in 
preference to Indians and to purchase outside India goods which are avail- 
able in India itself. In this connection I would crave the leave of this 
House to read a copy of a telegram which was sent to the Railway Board 
bv the Burma Indian Chamber of Commerce as regards the tender for 
229,000 jarrah wood sleepers bv the Great Indian Peninsula Railway, which 
was published in the Indian Trade Journal of the 4th instant. This Js 
what they say : * 

" Committee Burma Indian Chamber of Commerce strongly protest against practice 
of inviting tenders for foreign sleepers although teakwood and jungle wood for railway 
sleepers available in abundance in India and Burma. The Committee consider such 
practice in absolute contravention of accepted policy of Government regarding purchase 
of stores for public services specially. As railway concerned is now under State 
management they respectfully urge . Railway Board to take immediate steps to undo 
injustice done in this instance to country's interests concerned." 



GENERAL DISCUSSION OF THE RAILWAY BUDGET. 239 

J read this out not because this particular incident is very important. It 

is only important for this purpose that it serves to create an impression in 

the people that the Railway Administration tries its best to get out of the 

.recommendations of the Committee as much as possible on some ground or 

other. It is necessary that there should be no room for this suspicion 

well I would not call it so much suspicion as a critical attitude on the part 

*of the population of India with regard to its administration caused by 

.incidents like these it is necessary that there should be no scope given for 

.such criticism in future. 

Then coming to the question of railway construction I find a statement 
made that there is not much scope for development in the Madras and 
-Southern Mahratta Railway. I come from the North Arcot district 
which is served mostly by this Railway. There we find there are 
large tracts of country where there is no difficulty of introducing railway 
^communications, where ^people find that they have to go long distances, 
something like 50 or GO miles, before they come to a railway station. The 
Honourable the Leader of the House who comes from the same district 
-will bear testimony to that; tind I hope this representation of mine will be 
taken into consideration to find out whether there is scope for development 
in the matter of the construction of feeder lines in the area served by the 
Madras and Southern Mahratta Railway. 

And then as regards new construction I find there is a tendency to take 
.railway lines, so fur as Burma is concerned, along regions which are more 
or less uninhabited. That is specially so in the case of the railway line 
which has been taken to the Siamese frontier. It is a thickly wooded 
.country where there are hardly any human habitations. I do not see why 
:after spending a good deal of money in surveying the Iiido-Burma frontier, 
the scheme of an Indo-Burma connection has not been taken into serious 
^consideration yet. I find in the printed speech of the Railway member 
some pious hope is held out that in the far distant future, I take it, there 
may be a chance of connecting India and Burma, and the lines, some of 
which are now proposed to be constructed, may lead to that consumma- 
tion. 

I also find that in the case of the lines served by the Assam Bengal 
T$ailway the geographical position makes the railway unremunerative. I 
would suggest that if that Railway is so extended and I believe it will not 
Involve a cost which is out of all proportion to the remuneration which is 
'expected, it may be better to take that line and make it reach the line 
which is being constructed by the Burma Railways, so that both the 
Assam-Bengal Railway and the Burma Railways in tba.t region may be 
-.remunerative. 

I hope the Railway Administration will take these things into consider- 
J tion from the Indian point of view more specially as there is no Indian ele- 
ment at ^ihe top of the Administration. Efforts are being made from time 
to time to bring to the notice of the authorities that it is necessary to have 
-some Indian as a member of the Railway Board. No doubt in the case of 
^the Railway Board it was thought that an expert having knowledge of rail- 
way administration ought to be appointed, and as an Indian with such 
qualifications is not available an- Indian has not been appointed. No use- 
-lul purpose will be served in suggesting that the Financial Commissioner 
of Railways musft Toe an Indian because it is not a practical proposition now 



COUNCIL OF tfTATK. [20TH. FEB. 1926- 

[Mr. P. C. Desika Chari.] 

as it stands. It may be when further developments occur it will be taken, 
into consideration because it cannot be said that for the post of Financial 
Commissioner an Indian with suitable qualifications is not available. In 
this connection I may also refer to the Bates Advisory Committee. It was 
thought that the absence of the Indian element from the Eailway Board 
and the difficulty of finding an Indian for appointment to the post of 
Financial Commissioner would be somewhat compensated by the appoint- 
ment of a Statutory tribunal which would be in a position to deal with the 
rates in a satisfactory manner. Now as it is we have got an Advisory 
Committee and 1 hope and trust the scope and object of that Committee 
will not be narrowed and that it may be possible for individuals and private- 
organisations to bring before the Rates Tribunal questions they may want 
to refer to the Tribunal, and I hope it will not be the sole province of the 
Government or of the Railway companies to refer all matters which will 
have to bo decided by the Rates Advisory Committee. I hope this Rates 
Advisory Committee, though it does not go far to satisfy the demands of the 
people, will at least be enabled to widen the scope of its duties and take- 
into consideration references made to it by individuals and private organisa- 
tions in matters in which it is expected to discharge its functions. 

THE HONOURABLE Mil. K. C. ROY (Bengal : Nominated Non-Official) : 
Sir, when I came this morning I had no intention of taking part in this, 
debate because the Railway Budget is an intensely financial and the sub- 
ject matter of Sir Clement Hindley's speech a highly technical one. But, 
Sir, statements have been made in this House on which I think it is my 
duty to give my own views. The Honourable Mr. Bell who iff absent from 
the House at this minute complained of the shortness of notice. I do not 
share his views. In fact, Sir, more than 24 hours is an adequate notice for 
any Member of this House. But the biggest drawback from which we 
suffer, Sir, is the non-representation of this House on the Railway Standing 
Finance Committee of which the Honourable Mr. Sim is the Chairman and 
the mouthpiece. He must be a bold man, Sir, if he has taken that Stand- 
ing Committee into his full confidence and has given them in advance the 
ways and means programme of the Budget. This is not in consonance 
with the constitutional practice in any legislative House, not even in the 
British House of Commons. If he has done so he is a bold man. 

Then, Sir, I come to the speech of my Honourable friend Mr. Man- 
moViandas Ramji. Mr. Ramji is not satisfied with the Rates Advisory 
Committee ; but, Sir, the practice of condemning an institution in advance is 
a bad practice. It is done mainly in the other House and not in this House. 
I would ask the Honourable Member to civc the Advisory Committee a 
chance, to give my friend Sir Narasimha Sarnia a chance. He is a man of 
great integrity, honesty of purpose and of great foresight and statesman- 
ship, f 

THE HONOURABLE MR. MANMOHANDAS RAMJI VORA: I never 
questioned his personal qualifications. 

THE HONOURABLE MR. K. C. ROY- I did not mean that for one moment 
either. Then, Sir, I come to the spepch of my Mend the Honourable Lain 
Ram fiaran Das. Although rie tired the House there was a good deal of 
substance in his speech. But when he wanfcp me to believe that roadside 



GENERAL DISCUSSION OP THE RAILWAY BUDGET.. 241 

stations should be manned like the Delhi station I respectfully differ from 
him. In fact when I visit a railway station I try to compare my impressions, 
of an English railway station. Here you find troops of men,, station 
masters, assistant station masters, yard masters I do not know 
who else legions of them infesting all the stations. I would ask my 
Honourable friend to remember that in an English station all the work is 
done by one or two porters, one or two station masters and a few people 
like that and sometimes a railway station is run by a woman. Unless we 
can strive for English efficiency we shall never be successful in our business 
concerns, tmd I deprecate in the strongest terms the way in which the 
menial staff is sought to be increased in all stations on the Indian Railways. 

Then, Sir, reference has been made by my Honourable friends, Hai 
Bahadur Lala Ram Saran Das, Dr. Rama Rao and Mr. Chari to the ques- 
tion of Indianisation. This is a very old swan song of this House. It 
began in 1910, and It took a definite shape in 1911 when there was a 
heated debate between Mr. Gokhale on the one hand and Sir Trevedryir 
Wynne on the other; and in order to mark his displeasure Mr. Gokhale 
divided the House. The division was lost to him, and the minority in- 
cluded my friend the Maharaja of Burdwan who is now present here 
to-day. What has happened since then? Very little progress Has been 
made with Indianisation. To-day we have not got a single man occupy- 
ing a responsible position on the Railway Board purely on the railway 
side : I am not speaking of the audit or finance side at all. Then, Sir, 
we had the 'Railway Conference Association in Simla. Did we have a 
single Indian on it? No. I do not blame anybody for what has happened 
in the past. I think the country is indebted to the Honourable Sir 
Charles Innes and the Honourable Sir Clement Hindley for the bold 
measures they have taken to inaugurate a real policy of Indianisation on 
Railways. Let us give them a chance; let us not refer to it year after 
year; let us at least give the new scheme a chance for five years, and 
then cry for more. Sir, our views on Indianisation are well known. I 
was asked to answer this question by a Commission with which my Hon- 
ourable friend Sir Muhammad Habibullah was associated and I said that 
in respect of the Indian Civil Service, the Indian Police Service and the 
Indian Medical Service the utmost care should be taken not to Indianiso 
those services rapidly because they represent the security services of 
India; but as repprds the technical services of the State, engineering and 
railways, there should be more rapid Indianisation; and to those views T 
still .subscribe. 

Lastly, Sir, I come to Sir Arthur Froom. I entirely endorse nearly 
all he has said on th(e peneral aspect of the Budget. But, Sir, I differ 
from him in his claims for more money, for more consideration, for more 
favourable terms for Bombay. In fact, Sir, when I read the Budget for 
the first time I thought that the Budget had been framed only to placate 
Bombay because Bombay somehow or other has secured a dominant voico 
in our Indian Legislature. Then, Sir, when my friend Mr. Bell spoke 
here, for the support of an unknown bridge, I wanted him to mobilise 
Bengal opinion not only in this House but also in the other and put full 
pressure^ on EUr Clement Hindley and Sir Charles Innes and make them 
feel that Bengal has yet a function to perform here and to demand her 
full rights. Sir,, I congratulate Sir Charles Innes and Sir Clement Hindley 
on their able budget speeches. 



COUNCIL OF STATE. ' [20TH FEB. 1926, 

THS HONOUIIABLE MR. V. EAMADAS PANTULU (Madras : Non- 
Muhammadan) : Sir, both the Honourable Member for Railways and the 
Chief Commissioner have tolH tis in their very lucid and optimistic speeches 
that the Standing Railway Finance Committee examined the figures 
thoroughly and that they agreed to all the Demands. Specking for my- 
self this agreement has merely relieved me of the necessity of examining 
those figures with any care, because they will no doubt come under the 
tslose scrutiny of the Assembly when the Demands for Grants are voted 
upon. But it does not lead to the conclusion to which my Honourable 
friend Sir Arthur Froom has jumped, namely, that a great deal is possible 
under this constitution although we wicked Swarajists" and others deny it. 
The fact that Standing Finance Committees on Railways agreed to the 
Demands did not justify him in finding 1 that our assertion was wrong. 
I shall not make any reference either to the Skeen Committee or to the 
Royal Commission on Agriculture to which he also referred, because I feel 
them to be irrelevant considerations so far as this question is concerned. I 
shall confine myself entirely to the railway policy. 1 may tell my Honourable 
friend, Sir Arthur Froom, and this House, that an examination of the 
figures and accepting the demands, which arc regulated and controlled by 
a policy in which the Indians have absolutely no voice and in which the 
Indians are not consulted, do not mean much to my mind. Certain pro- 
posals are put by the Railway Board before the Standing Finance Com- 
mittee for Railways which is asked to scrutinise the figures relating to 
them just as any auditor or expert clerk does, and if my friend suggests 
that the members of the Standing Railway Finance Committee control 
the policy underlying these figures, I beg emphatically to differ from this 
assertion. 

Sir, over since 1870 we are told that there is absolutely no political 
disability for an Indian to be appointed to any position in the administra- 
tion of Railways either asi a member of the Railway Board or as a Financial 
Adviser or to any superior appointments. In the discussion in another 
; place in 1924, I found that, though no promise was made, yet hopes were 
held out in the speeches made by the Honourable Sir Basil Blackett and 
the Honourable Sir Charles Innes that the claim of Indians to a place *n 
the higher direction and control of the Railways would be favourably 

considered. But after a period of three years, I find that we are where we 
were. And to-day I am in a position to assert that there is a large volume 
of feeling in this country that the railway policy of the Government of India 
is directed mainly in -the interests of the foreign capitalist and the foreign 
merchant and not of Indian interests. Normally, Sir, I agree, that 

schemes for the expansion of the Railways and railway prosperity are a 

true index of the commercial and industrial development of a country, but 
in a country like India which is under a foreign political domination and 
(fortipn capitalistic exploitation, they have a different meaning. It is 

obvious to every student of economics and industries in this country that 
witb the growing expansion of our railway system, he indigenous trade 
and commerce are being destroyed. I heard yesterday a very remarkable 

speech by one of our foremost commercial men in India, Lala Harkishon 
Lai from his place as President of the Indian Commercial and Industrial 

Congress which is now sitting in this city, in which he depicted in a very 

vivid manner how the industries of India have Been going down day after 

dav in spite of the so-called transport facilities afforded bv our Railways. 
7 I do not wish to elaborate this point. Every one knows that our pre-rail- 



GENERAL DISCUSSION OF THE RAILWAY BUDGET. 

way manufactures have steadily been going down, and the present railway 
policy is serving to facilitate the import of foreign goods and the rapid export 
of raw material arid commercial products like jute and cotton. This has 
resulted in the impoverishment of the country and a steady degeneration of 
our indigenous industries. It is a fact which will stand examination, it 
will be borne out by an examination of the industrial and railway policy 
of the Government of India. The primary concern in a self-governing 
country will be the prosperity of the subject based upon the economic and 
industrial possibilities of Railways but in a country like India, which is 
governed on different lines, the test of prosperity is the figures relating to 
the export and import trade -as an index of the prosperity of the foreign, 
trade and not the inland trade. 

Then with regard to the railway lines in India, we are told that to-day 
we have nearly 38,000 miles of railways in this country. But what is 
38,000 miles of railway in a country like India with a population of 318 
millions? In a country like England with a population of 43 millions, we 
have 50,000 miles of railway; in Germany with a population of 60 
millions, wo have 34,600 miles and in the United States of America, 
with a population of 118 millions we have 262,000 miles. Out of a total 
railway mileage of 660,000, we have only got 38,000 miles though we have 
one-fifth of the population of the world. These 38,000 miles of railway 
are so constructed as to be useful in the main either for strategic purposes 
or for the purpose of helping the import of foreign material into India 
and facilitating the export of raw material from India. I say, Sir, that 
the spirit of the railway policy to-day is the same as it was in 1845 when 
it had its humble beginnings, and 120 miles of railway were built from 
Calcutta to Ranegunj, 33 miles of railway from Bombay to Kalyan and 
#9 miles from Madras to Arkonam. The significance was that they wanted 
foreign ships arriving at those ports to dump India with their foreign goods 
and to-day, the same is the spirit, because, I find that some development 
schemes proposed by agencies like District Boards to improve the com- 
munications in the interior of the country are held up while lines which 
are strategic or which are profitable to the foreign merchants and capitalists 
are taken up more readily. Therefore it is no use saying that the Standing 
Railway Finance Committee's work is an index of the possibilities of this 
constitution. 

Then, Sir, before I deal with the Railway Board's achievements, I 
hall mention one fact regarding the mentality of the Railway Board. It 
may be a very small matter but it shows the whole attitude that underlies 
the Railway Board's administration. When the Khyber Pass Railway was 
opened, invitations were sent out to some Anglo-Indian journals but not a 
single Indian journal was invited to the function. I believe my Honour- 
able friend Sir Charles Innes had to answer a number of questions on 
that point in another place only a few days ago and- the only explanation 
lie had to give was that these Anglo-Indian papers had editors who came 
in contact with the tin gods of Simla and D^elhi and therefore they had 
Teceived invitations. Is that an explanation worthy of a body which is 
responsible for the administration of such a huge enterprise as the Indian 
Hailways? The Indian editors do not care for the invitations of the Railway 
Board, for they are self-respecting men. I only instance it as a point 
to show the mentality of the Railway Board which is supposed to be safe- 
guarding the interests of this country. 



244 COUNCIL OF STATE. [20TII FEB. 1926L 

[Mr. V. Eamadas Pantulu.] 

Then, Sir, with regard to the way in which the Kailway Board is- 
Indianising the services, I will not cover the same ground that has been, 
covered by other Honourable Members. But I will only give you two 
startling figures. In the State-managed Railways there are 450. high paid 
officials (Europeans and Anglo-Indians) whose monthly salary is Es. 3Jy 
lakhs and there are 45 Indians whose monthly pay amounts to Es. 26,000.. 
In the Company-managed Eailways we have to-day 1,088 European official* 
whose monthly pay is Es. 8J lakhs and 28 Indians with a miserable monthly, 
pay of Es. 12,000. There is not a single Chief Engineer, a single Superin- 
tending Engineer, a single Agent, a single Deputy Agent, a single Traffic- 
Manager, a single Deputy Traffic Manager, a single Loco Superintendent,, 
a single Controller of Stores, a single Bridge Engineer, a single Electric 
Engineer, who is an Indian and this is considered to be the correct policy 
pursued by the Eailway Board and we are told that there is possibility 
of the realisation of our legitimate aspirations within the constitution itself. 
I do not think a further refutation is necessary. I will only allude to one 
more matter. In the railway workshops training is afforded to Europeans, 
and Anglo-Indians to a very efficient degree. Foremen and other higher 
appointments are made available to persons trained in these workshops. 
But Indians .are nowhere. This glaring injustice attracted the attention 
of the Industrial Commission. I will read a sentence from the Report of 
the Industrial Commission. This is what they say : 

" Railway workshops are, as we have stated, in many cases, already receiving 
European and Anglo-Indian apprentices to whom some degree of technical training 
is given with the object of enabling them to obtain posts as foremen or in special' 
cases even higher appointments. There is, however, a noteworthy absence of provision 
for the middle class Indian. We consider it of great importance that the conditions 
of training should be such as the educated Indian youth will consider consistent with 
his sense of self-respect; for if this is not satisfied we shall be depriving ourselves 
of a most promising field of recruitment." 

If the policy is directed by Indians in the Indian interests, is it possible- 
that the workshops which are maintained at India's cost will not have 
room for India's sons to be trained there? With regard to the purchase- 
of stores, several Honourable friends have alluded to it and the report of 
the Stores Purchase Committee of 1920 has in the main been ignored 
though to some extent it has been adhered to. That is because of two- 
things, one, there has not been sufficient relaxation of rules which regulate- 
purchases, and secondly, because of the influence of the India Office on 
the purchase of stores. The Indian Industrial Commission has drawn 
pointed attention to the fact and said that the experience of the Great 
War has taught us the necessity of making India self-sufficient in industrial 
output even with regard to the Eailways so that they may not suffer when 
another great war comes. 

Then, Sir, with regard to freights and fares I will not go into details,, 
but there again the policy of giving relief to long distance traffic is also* 
calculated to favour the capitalist and the rich. A poor man on an average 
travels short distances. I find, on an examination of these voluminous 
records which were furnished to us only the day before yesterday, that in- 
most Eailways the distance travelled by the poor people varies from 3tf 
to 50 miles. It is not uniform on all Eailways, but it is from 35 to SO 
miles. What is the use of telling us that relief has been given to third cla&tf 
passengers travelling over 300 miles when the average travelled by a po^ 
man is between 35 and 50 miles. In the case of goods, they are trans- 



GENERAL DISCUSSION OF THE RAILWAY BUDGET. 24-5 

ported over long distances by foreign capitalists and merchants and there 
is no attempt made to facilitate short distance internal transportation of 
goods from one place to another in the interior of the country to relieve 
famine conditions or to encourage indigenous production and sale. In 
regard to third class passengers, while both the speeches of the Honour- 
fole Sir Clement Hindley and of the Honourable Sir Charles Innes make 
sympathetic references to their grievance and also promise redress, I find a 
good deal of over-caution and it is said that there is a certain amount of 
risk in proceeding more quickly in allowing a. temporary drop in earnings. 
I think the caution expressed is over-abundant in view of the fact that, 
after paying a contribution of one per cent, on the capital at charge, also 
one-fifth of the surplus and one-third of the excess after taking Rs. 8 crores 
to the Reserves, we find our position very sound to-day. With a Deprecia- 
tion Fund of Us. 10 crores, with a Reserve Fund of about Rs. 12 crores and 
in addition a contribution of Rs. 18 crores to the general revenues during 
the last 3 years the position is so sound that irritating caution with regard 
to the relief of third class passengers is unnecessary and over-abundant. I 
think that the Government ought to take up a bolder attitude in the matter. 
Therefore, I think that, viewed from any standpoint the administration 
has not been satisfactory and the whole thing is due to the fact that we 
have not got the direction and control of the railway policy in our hands 
and that the policy is entirely controlled and directed by others. There 
are many more things that I wish to say, but I do not want to take up the 
time of the House as many Honourable Members wish to speak. I repent 
once more my statement that the entire policy is wrong and until the Rail- 
way Board is Indianised, the service is Indianiscd, and the policy is Indiun- 
ised, there is no use of telling us, "We have got this or that facility for 
examining the figures" which can bo done by a clerk or an auditor. I 
therefore hope that Government will make up their minds and revise their 
entire Indian railway policy so that it can best serve the interests of 
India. 

THE HONOURABLE MAJOR NAWAB MAHOMED AKBAR KHAN (North- 
West Frontier : Nominated Non-Official) : Sir, I warmly congratulate my 
Honourable friend, Sir Clement Hindley on the fact that the Budget which 
he had an opportunity of presenting to this House the day before yesterday 
is uncommonly good. The more one has the time to study it, the more 
'one feels inclined to appreciate it. In studying the Budget one is often 
tempted to endeavour to find points in it, to which objections can be taken. 
But I venture to think that any one approaching the Railway Budget in 
this spirit will find very little to take exception to. There will be a differ- 
ence of opinion with regard to the allocation of Capital expenditure and 
each Honourable Member will naturally be more impressed by the needs 
of his own province. Although each item under "New Constructions" 
appears to have been examined with care and with due and fair regard to 
the needs of the country generally, I do not think I would be going wide 
of the mark if I venture to draw the attention of this Honourable House 
generally, and the Honourable the Railway Member especially, towards 
the extension of the railway line in the Charsadda and Swabi Tahsils of 
Peshawar, the District, where the necessity for opening a line from Mardan 
ia keenly felt by the inhabitants of the said localities, as it is expected to 
do much in the way of promoting trade and consequently peace and pros- 
perity.' In addition, it will Jbe certainly remunerative. Apart from this 
I would suggest the ppening of a line froni P^sh^war to Kphat through the 
Itaasa, and ooanecting it witji Panjp.u, gQp, .Qi*ft* 4* fivdubagh, 4* 



246 COUNCIL OF STATE. [20TH FEB. 1926. 

[Nawab Mahomed Akbar Khan.] 

railway line already exists. From Hindubagh to Fort Sandeman the line 
is under construction. There is a distance of 100 miles from Fort Sande- 
man to Tonk. This, if connected, will give a direct route from Quetta ta 
Tonk and other important military stations on the frontier. Moreover, 
there ought to be a bridge at Man Indus Kalabagh, as it will prove the- 
means of an easy access into the North West Frontier Province from the 
Punjab. Another line connecting Kashmore and Dera Ghazi Khan should 
be constructed and this should be extended to Dera Ismail Khan and con- 
nected at Pessu. This project stands in need of no comment as its con- 
struction apart from the fact of promoting peace, tranquillity and civili- 
sation, is of great importance from the strategical point of view. 

The Dccauville Railway between Tonk and Dera Ismail Khan should be- 
converted into the Kalabagh Bannu railway gauge as early as possible because 
great trouble is experienced by the travellers in finding accommodation. 
There is one point that has been left out by the Honourable Lala Ram 
Saran Das, although he made a very exhaustive speech and I should like 
to bring that point forward. It is that water tank wagons should be 
attached to the trains passing through a cholera stricken area in order that 
passengers should not contract this disease by drinking infected water or 
some proper arrangements should be made at every station for the thorough 
disinfection of water to guard travellers and passengers in the trains, 
against the danger of contracting disease. That was the point that my 
Honourable friend Lala Ham Saran Das told me to bring out in my speech. 

There is another point, Sir, that some of the Honourable Members 
put questions in this House, and it is complained that the answers to 
those questions regarding Railways put in the Council nro evaded and 
shelved and that when they insist on replies being given to them, they 
are, asked to approach the Railway concerned through its Railway Advisory 
Committee. Well, Sir, personally I have had no occasion to make com- 
plaints myself, but of course people who arc always great] y interested in 
the Railways do complain now and then. 

As regards the expenditure of 30 crores of rupees to be incurred in the 
replacement of buffers and draw-bars by automatic couplers, I would like 
to remark that the spending of so much money on the replacement of 
things working quite satisfactorily is a bit hard on a poor country like India. 

It is a matter of great pleasure to note irom the budget estimates under 
discussion, that in spite of reductions in freight and fares the net receipts 
of the year 1926-27 are calculated to exceed the expenditure in the same- 
year by nearly 10 crores of rupees. The reduction in the fares is quite 
welcomed, but I would like to bring to the notice of the Honourable 
Members that the restriction, namely, that it will not be given effect !/> 
in the case of Intermediate and third class passengers travelling under a 
distance of 50 miles will tell hardly on the majority of the passengers and 
especially in the North-West Frontier Province. There tne majority 
of the people seldom chance to travel above 50 miles, and almost 80 per 
cent, of the population of that Province cannot afford to travel except in 
the third and intermediate compartments. Similarly, one cannot but see 
with joy the concession granted in respect of coal freight over and above 
the distance of 400 miles, although had it been a little more, it would 
have enabled us better to compete more safely in the industrial market. 
The freight on petroleum should also be reduced as both these: commo- 
dixies are not luxuries but are necessities of life. 



GENERAL DISCUSSION OF THE RAILWAY BUDGET. 

As regards the Kailway Reserves, it is a matter of great delight that 
they are expected to stand approximately at 10 crores of rupees, but 
keeping in view the objects for which these Reserves are to be used, 
I do not think the railway authorities will suffer them to decrease. Honour- 
able Members of this House can have some consolation, as to their increase 
every year from the words of the Honourable the Railway Member, who 
does not regard this as anything to boast about. 

Before resuming rny seat, I would like to say a few words with regard 
to the services in the Railway Department. It is a matter of thankfulness 
to the Government that the number of Indians in this Department Is 
increasing every year, but on the other hand I regret to observe that they 
are given little chance in the Mechanical, Locomotive, Gas and Electric 
Departments. Would the Honourable the Chief Commissioner for Railways 
please see that Indians are allowed a better chance of acquiring practical 
training in these respects also? It would bo better if an institution like that 
at Chondausi is opened at Lahore or Lyallpore on the North Western Rail- 
way as this is the most important and the largest line in India. Tho location 
of such an institution in tho Punjab will enable the people of the North 
to avail ^ themselves of the facilitieR intended by Government in respect 
of practical training in mechanical engineering. 

*THE HONOURABLE RAI BAHADUR NALININATH SETT (West Bengal: 
Non-Muhammadan) : Sir, with some of the speakers who have already 
spoken, I also think that the time allowed to the Members of this Hpuse 
for the study of the Budget is too short. I confess, Sir, that I have- not 
boon able to go in detail into these papers. I shall therefore confine my 
remarks, specially with reference to the province which I have the honour 
to represent hero, to a few points. Speaking on behalf of the inhabitants 
of Calcutta, I regret that no decision has yet been arrived at with regard 
to ihe bringing of the railway system within easy roach from tho centre 
of Calcutta. Comparing Calcutta with Bombay we find that the inhabitants- 
of Calcutta are much worse off in tho matter of travelling from and to their 
suburban homes from the business quarters' of Calcutta. While the 
suburban areas of Bombay are now being served by electric trains^ Calcutta 
has no chance of having such a convenience within a year or two.' I would 
therefore urge on tho HonouraEle Member in charge to try to expedite 
matters. There is a. great deadlock in connection with the expansion of 
the town of Calcutta northwards owing to the existence of the Chitptn 
marshalling yard. It would certainly be proper and expedient to remove 
the yard to some distance thereby setting free the vast area occupied by 
it for the expansion of Calcutta. In this connection I would like to draw 
the attention of the Honourable the Chief Commissioner to tho inadequate 
width of the ovorbridges in and near Calcutta. These bridges when con- 
structed were no doubt adequate and wide enough, but tHe condition of 
traffic over these bridges has considerably altered and these bridges have 
at present become quite insufficient. I hope, Sir, that in connection with 
the inquiry for having a central railway station in Calcutta the improve- 
ment of these overbridges will also be favourably considered. There are 
some important railway stations wKich have no overbridges, such as Sirnulfofa 
station on the East Indian Railway. 'At such an important station as 
Madhupur on the East Indian Railway the overbridge does not cover a 

* Speech not corrected by the Honourable Member. 



248 COUNCIL OF -STATE. 20x11 FEB. 1926. 

[Kai Bahadur NaJininath SettJ 

new goods siding and people have to crawl under the wagons when a train 
is standing in order to reach the railway station. I think, Sir, that these 
defects, although very minor, ought to be remedied at once. 

THE HONOURABLE Sin* CLEMENT HINDLEY (Chief Commissioner: 
,-Railwiiys) : Sir, 1 wish first of all to thank Honourable Members of this 
House who have congratulated the Bailway Department on the Budget for 
their many encouraging remarks about the work we are trying to do. There 
have been a few dissentient voices, but I recognise that that must always 
bo the case in a controversial matter like our Railways. TKe Honourable 
Mr. Bell has complained that we did not give him sufficient time to read 
the 19 volumes of statistics and figures which necessarily accompany our 
Budget. I can only say that I am very sorry about it, but 1 am not 
#t all certain that the Honourable Mr. Boll ever really meant to read those 
volumes even if we had given him longer time. The actual allotment of days 
for this business depends, as the Honourable Mr. Bell and others know, 
on the business whicdi the Council has before it, and I cannot undertake 
that longer time shall be provided between the presentation and the "dis- 
cussion. The business must be regulated by other business in hand. At 
the same time I will make note of his complaint, which was voiced bv 
others. The Honourable Mr. Bell expressed himself as being satisfied with 
the results of separation of finances and particularly urged the Eailway 
Board not to submit to pressure from any source to depart from their 
polkjy of steadily building up reserves. I was glad to ha,ve that statement 
from the Honourable Mr. Bell, but I was rather unprepared for his next 
statement, namely, that he thought we should at once proceed to grant 
a larger rebate on export coal. I am quite aware that he said that this 
should be subject to his previous remarks, but the two things to my mind, 
Sir, are at first sight incompatible. 

Then, Sir, I was asked or perhaps the Honourable Mr. Bell was trying 
to draw me in a slang term perhaps he was trying to pull my leg about 
the Howrah Bridge. The Honourable Mr. Bell knows perfectly well, I 
think, that the Howrah Bridge at the present moment is under the con- 
sideration of the Government of Bengal and it is not before us as, a subject. 
He kno/ws perfectly well that the future Howrah Bridge has always had 
my sympathy and will always continue to have it. But I am not at the 
moment prepared to extend very much sympathy, as I said last year, to 
the people of Calcutta who will not make up their minds to build the 
bridge and be done with it. We feel exactly as he does about the electri- 
fication of suburban railways in Calcutta and we intend to push that scheme 
forward as soon as we have a satisfactory report. 

Sir, the Honourable Mr. Manmofaaridas Eamji pointed out rather an inter- 
esting series of figures with regard to the working expenses of certain 
railways be.fhre and after they came under' State management. He pointed 
out that the Great Indian Peninsula Eailway working ratio wrs at present 
69 per cent, whereas Company lines like the Madras and Southern Mahratta 
Railway and the Bombay, 'Baroda arid Central India Railway were working 
in, the neighbourhood of 60 per cent. r lt is always possible to use figures 
like, these too get any particular argument. But perhaps the Honourable 
ME, Manmohaictfas Ra^aji does -*ibt remember that about three years ago 

Great Indian" Peninsula Eailway as a 'Companyonanaped railway was 



GENERAL DISCUSSION OP THE RAILWAY BUDGET. 249 

working at about 90 per cent. That is to say, its working expenses were very 
nearly equal to its earnings. It is now working at 69 per cent. That is 
my answer. This matter, as the Honourable Member himself knows, was 
threshed out several years ago. 

I cannot attempt to deal with all the subjects that the Honourable Rai 
Bahadur Lala Earn Saran Das dealt with in his speech because many of 
them, as he would admit himself, deal with matters of detail in a particular 
part of India and it is not possible for me at this moment nor would it be 
in accordance with the wishes of the Council to go into them in any detail. 
But I wish to .mention one or two matters which he brought up. As opposed 
to the Honourable Mr. Bell, the Honourable Rai Bahadur asked that we 
should not give rebate on export coal but should reduce the long distance 
coal freights by another 15 per cent. Well, Sir, that is a very nice pro- 
position for the people who live at long distances. But I want the Honour- 
able Rai Bahadur and others to again read our papers and to see how dim- 
cult it has been to make the reduction that we have made. We have 
taken great risks of losing revenue by making that reduction and I want the 
Council to realise that we cannot go forward rapidly in this matter. As I 
said in my speech, we must make experiments and we must see the effect 
before we go further. It is doubtful indeed whether, with our present 
expenses, it would be a remunerative proposition, tp carry coal at long 
distances at a lower rate than we have at present. We have to remember 
the increases in our working expenditure, that is to say, the increase in 
all our fundamental expenses as compared with a few years ago. The 
Honourable Rai Bahadur asked for my particular sympathy in regard to 
certain literate apprentices in the North Western Railway workshops who 
were appointed and received their training before the present arrangements 
with the Maclagan College were made. I have no knowledge of the rumour 
that these young men will not get appointments, but I do not believe that 
they are going to be thrown out in the streets. I have no reason to believe 
that if they have completed their training satisfactorily there will be any 
difficulty in finding places for them. As the report of the Industries Com- 
mission has been mentioned I would say that it was expressly recommended 
to us by the Industries Commission that railway workshops should try and 
train mechanics and literate Indians for mechanical work not only for Rail- 
ways but for outside work, and in railway workshops like Moghulpura they 
do get an all-round mechanical training and therefore have something in 
their hands which they had not got before they went there. 

I wish to contradict one statement that my Honourable friend the Rai 
Bahadur made that they were trained only for railway work and were of 
no use for outside work. 

THE HONOURABLE RAI BAHADUR LALA RAM SARAN DAS : I think 
what I said is right, because those apprentices are being trained in one 
particular department, either in the erecting, millwright or some other 
department. 

THE HONOURABLE SIR CLEMENT HINDLEY : I cannot go into details 
now, but my impression is that the present course of training takes them 
through all the workshops in the railway and they get very varied experience. 

I would also like to. correct another .impression >vhich is unhappily 
prevalent that training 'schools like Chandausi will necessarily take men 
straight away from their subordinate duties into' the superior services. The 



250 COUNCIL OF STATE. [20TH FEB. 1926. 

[Sir Clement Hindley.] 

training school at Chandausi is primarily for training the staff in their duties 
so as to make them more efficient in their duties and qualify them gradu- 
ally for getting up in the service, but because those ten station masters 
to wh'om reference has been made have been through the school and have 
passed the examination, it does not follow that they can at onoe expect to 
get promotion. Our object is to take all the staff through that school and 
improve them in their duties so that they can gradually get promotion. 

The Honourable Rai Bahadur in the last of his. remarks said that we 
were going to spend something like 20 crores of rupees on the getting of 
our rolling stock for automatic couplings and he compared this with the 
work that is being done in Bombay on the Back Bay Reclamation scheme. 
There is no comparison at all between these two things, and I am sure 
the Honourable Member did not intend us to take his remarks seriously. 
In the first place this is an ordinary business matter which has to be 
attended to. We do not propose to spend anything like 20 crores. If we 
go through this work we expect to spend 5 or 6 crores spread out for a num- 
ber of years. I expect very great benefit to result in the matter of reduction 
of expenses and in the reduction of first cost of new rolling stock and con- 
siderable benefit to the staff who have to do the work of coupling of wagons. 
I should like to say that this ft not extravagance of any kind. It is an 
essential improvement which we must make in our rolling stock in order 
to carry the heavier traffic and it is also going to be the means of reducing 
the risk to workers who have to couple up wagons. With these automatic 
couplings there will not be such great risk to the men who have to do the 
coupling. I therefore deprecate the matter being considered as a sort of 
extravagant adventure. It is a very necessary requirement of our rail- 
ways and I hope it will go (forward rapidly. 

THE HONOURABLE RAI BAHADUR LALA EAM SAEAN DAS: One 
word . . . 

THE HONOURABLE THE PRESIDENT: The Honourable Member is not 
entitled to another speech. 

THE HONOURABLE SIR CLEMENT HINDLEY : Now, Sir, I come to the 
speech of Dr. Rama Rao, and perhaps I might include with that speech 
some remarks made by Mr. Ramadas Paritulu. Really, Sir, I cannot be- 
lieve that the Honourable Mr. Ramadas Pantulu intends me to take quite 
seriously some of the things he said to-day. It seemed to me, that while 
he had been contemplating the state of India when there were only a few 
miles of railway running out of Calcutta and running out of Madras, he 
had become obsessed with things of those days, and that his mind had not 
moved forward from that period to this, because he did not seem to know 
anything about what we have been doing in the last few years on the Rail- 
ways. If he had read our papers a little more carefully or had studied 
the subject with that earnestness which he puts into his statements I am 
quite certain he would not have come to the conclusions which he did. He 
quoted and read at considerable length a statement from the Industrial 
Commission's Report. He said things are very backward in regard to the 
training of Indians as mechanics and that even the Industrial Commission 
brought this to notice. When did the Industrial Commission sit? In 
1915. I think it was in 1915 that that Report was written; more than 10 
years ago. Does the Honourable Member intend this House to believe 
that the state of affairs is now as it was when it was reported on by the 



GENERAL DISCUSSION OF THE RAILWAY BUDGET. 251 

Industrial Commission? Has the Honourable Member tried to find out 
what we have been doing to improve the training of Indians as mechanics 
in the workshops and the recruitment of Indians as mechanics? The 
Honourable Member must be completely ignorant of what has been don 
at Jamalpur, at Moghulpura, at Kanchrapara and half a dozen other centres 
where technical schools have been built and hostels have been built and 
where Indians are now being trained, and where, as another Honourable 
Member pointed out, the boys who went in for five years' training, have 
now come out fully trained. That is all I have to sny on that subject. 
The Honourable Mr. Ramadas Pantulu is completely out of date in his 
information of what we are doing in training on our Railways. 

Then, Sir, we have had several statements made by our critics here to 
the effect that the policy laid down for stores purchase has been completely 
ignored. I strongly deprecate statements of this kind because we are 
following out the policy laid down by the Stores Committee, 
which policy has been embodied in the Stores Purchase Rules. 
It is only necessary, if any Honourable Member wishes to ascertain the 
facts to see what we have been purchasing in India and what we have been 
purchasing abroad, as shown by the figures in our published statements, 
which shew that a steadily increasing n mount of our stores are being pur- 
chased in India. One individual case has been mentioned, where the 
Agent of the Great Indian Peninsula Railway has called for tenders for 
certain jarra wood sleepers. Well, Sir, there are cases where the indige- 
nous product is not altogether suitable. I reserve my judgment in this 
particular case; but I wish to say that there is no injustice to India in 
calling for tenders for materials. After all it is matter of finding out 
whether the material is cheaper and can be produced cheaper abroad than 
the indigenous article, or whether the indigenous article is cheaper. 

The Honourable Mr. Ramadas Pantulu charged us with excessive 
caution. He said that we had given a very meagre reduction in fares and 
rates. He sees a very large reserve and he thinks there should be no 
nsed for caution. In the next, sentence he went on to say that he regretted 
very much that this House did not control the Railways, and perhaps he 
regretted that he and his Party did not control the Railways. Now, Sir, 
if that is a sample of what he would do if he had control of the Railways, 
that he would throw all caution to the winds the moment he got a small 
reserve fund and reduce rates and fares wholesale for the good of the people, 
instead of first building up reserves, then, Sir, I hope that day may be 
distant. But I do not think he really meant that. 

THE HONOURABLE MR. V. RAMADAS PANTULU: Over- caution, too 
much caution I 

THE HONOURABLE SIR CLEMENT HINDLEY: Well, Sir, the amount 
of caution any one is entitled to use in a matter of this sort must be a 
matter for very careful consideration; and I gathered the Honourable 
Member would use 'considerably less caution than we should and take much' 
greater risks. At the same time I claim that in view of the possible diffi- 
culties in the future in finding the money necessary for our heavy obliga- 
tions we have gone as far as we can and as far as caution advises us to go. 
We have promised the Honourable the Railway Member premised and I 
myself in my speech promised that the matter was being further exam- 
ined; and we do not propose to stop further examination of th'e subject, 
simply because we have been able at first examination to make some rer 
duotions. 



252 COUNCIL OF STATE. [20TH FEB. 1926. 

[Sir Clement Hindley.] 

I think, Sir, I must leave the various suggestions that were made for 
additional construction in various parts of India and not comment on 
them now. We shall have them on the record and refer to them in pre- 
paring future construction programmes. But I would like to suggest that 
some Honourable Members seem to have 'spoken without having had time 
to fully study what new lines are proposed in their particular localities. 

The last suggestion made by the Honourable Member from the North- 
West Frontier Province was that we should have further institutions like 
that we have at Chandausi. He mentioned that he would like to see one 
at Lahore or Lyallpur. Well, Sir, I have already announced that we are 
setting up one at Lyallpur which will give training to railway employees in 
a large portion of the Punjab. We may have one further West later on, 
but we want this established first at Lyallpur. 

I think, Sir, that I have now answered the main criticisms that have 
been put forward. 

THE HONOURABLE SIR CHARLES INNES (Member for Commerce and 
Railways) : Sir, T feel that I have not rnuch excuse for addressing the Council 
of State this morning, but I do wish to express my regret that an important 
Select Committee prevented me from attending the earlier part of this de- 
bate. Sir Clement Hindley has dealt faithfully with my Honourable friend 
Mr. Ramadas Pantulu; but I must confess that T myself have a good deal 
of sympathy with the Honourable gentleman. When I heard his speech 
it struck me that what the Honourable Member really would have liked 
would have been a really bad Budget when the Honourable gentleman 
would have had a really good excuse for an attack upon the Government. 
But as it was, with the Budget as it is, the Honourable Member laboured 
very heavily. He had to trot out all the time worn fallacies which I 
thought had been put away for ever. The Honourable Member told us 
that the policy of the Indian Railways was directed solely for the benefit 
of the foreign capitalist. He made the startling announcement that our 
Railways were based mainly upon our ports. He went on to say that our 
railway rates were so designed ag to facilitate the import of foreign goods 
and to encourage the export of raw materials. Well, Sir, that old supersti- 
tion was dealt with in 1921 by the Acworth Committee. The Acworth 
Committee said : 

" In one respect, at least, the Indian Railways have refrained from following 
the accepted railway practice in other countries. It is usual in most countries to 
concede for export traffic through a sea-port rates which are not available to that 
seaport for local traffic ; and vice versa in countries which adopt a free trade policy, 
to fix lower rates for the carriage inwards of poods imported through a port than 
for goods produced locally at the port town. This practice is not, so far as we have 
been able to ascertain, followed in India, Bombay receives from upcountry large 
quantities of raw cotton, part of which is worked, up on the spot and part exported. 
Similarly,. Bombay distributes to upcountry points large quantities of cotton cloth, 
part of it locally manufactured and part 'imported. The raw cotton rahes down to 
Bombay port and to Bombay town are the same, and so are the manufactured cotton 
ratpa upwards. The same principle, we understand, is applied elsewhere, in the case, 
for instance of the great Calcutta jute trade." 

Now, Sir. I think, that before the Honourable Member repeats these hoary 
old fallacies he really ought to make himself conversant with the literature 
existing on subjects of this kind. Again, Sir, he used rather an extra- 
ordinary argument. In repeating hie statement that the Bailway* existed 



GENERAL DISCUSSION OF THE RAILWAY BUDGET. 263 

solely for the benefit of the foreign capitalist, he pointed out that in 
reducing third class passenger fares we had mostly reduced long distance 
fares; he gave that as an instance of the way in which we favoured the 
capitalist; but surely the Honourable Member must see that the capitalist 
does not use third class carriages ; still less docs the foreign capitalist. I 
think, Sir, the time is past for statements of the kind that Mr. Ramadas 
Pantulu just made. I have now been connected with the Indian Railways 
for five years. I have assisted in this House and in the other House in 
many debates on railway questions. Particularly in the other House, tliree 
or four years ago, statements of this kind were made,; but my experience 
is that these statements are being made less and less ; and I think it is 
beginning to be realised generally that the Government of India and the 
Railway Department have made it their aim and their sole and single- 
minded aim to develop the Railways to the best of their ability in the 
interests of India and in no other interest. I have always had from this 
Council full recognition of that fact, and I am glad to say that in the other 
House that fact is being recognised more and more; and I do suggest for 
the consideration of my Honourable friend that he should reconsider his 
position in this matter, and that before he makes statements of this kind 
he should, as I have said before, try to make himself acquainted with the 
literature which exists upon the subject. 

There is just one more subject to which 1 wish to refer before I sit 
down, and that is the old and ancient question of Indianisation. Every 
time I speak upon the Railway Budget 1 speak upon this particular ques- 
tion. 1 am quite prepared to admit, Sir, that up to a few years ago 
Indians were rnt commonly employed, at any rate, in superior appoint- 
ments on Indian Railways. But during the last five years there has 
been a considerable change in this respect. I had the figures taken out 
only the other day; and if we exclude those departments for which facilities 
of training do not now exist in India I am referring to such departments 
as the Carriage mid Wagon and Locomotive Departments I find that in 
the last five years 65 per cent, of such vacancies have been filled by 
Indians, and I claim that that is a very real improvement. It is perfectly 
true that there are not at present very many Indians in the higher appoint- 
ments in the Railway Department; but, Sir, as was said in this debate 
in this Council last year, it must be a question of time before we reach 
that result. All our higher appointments in the Railway Department are- 
technical appointments; for them we require special knowledge and above 
all special experience, and you cannot measure the progress of a policy 
by an hour glass. It is perfectly useless every few months to get up and 
say "Why. have you not got Indians in the higher appointments in the 
Railway Board?" You must give time for a policy of this kind to work 
out. But I do claim that we have made in the last few years a very 
real advance. Even in the Railway Board itself there has bce"h a very 
great advance ever since last year. Last year in the Railway Board we 
had 22 gazetted appointments and five Indians. This year we have 17 
and seven Indians. Below the Railway Board itself there are Directors 
nnd this year two out of the five directors are Indians ; and I wish to make 
it plain that those Indians were not appointed to those particular posts 
because they were Indians; they were appointed because they were what 
we considered to be he best men for those jobs; and I claim that that 
is the only right principle to follow. You must get the best qualified men 
for higher appointments of this bind; but what I say is that if the best 



251 COUNCIL OF STATE. [20TH FEB. 1926. 

[Sir Charles Innes.] 

qualified man happens to be an Indian, well, nobody Is more pleased than 
I. I think, Sir, that we can claim that in the Railway Department, what- 
ever the Honourable Mr. llamadas Pantulu may say, that in the last 
five years, we have made a very great improvement in our Eailways. I 
believe, Sir, that there are very few countries in the world that can show 
such satisfactory results from their Eailways as India has been able to do 
in the last few years. We are improving the permanent way, we are 
improving our arrangements for traffic every year, and if only people would 
trust us. if only they would recognise that we are trying to do our best 
for India, I am perfectly sure that Sir Clement Hindley and the men who 
are working wfth him in a very few years' time will have made the Rail- 
ways in India an even better instrument of commerce than they are to-day. 



STATEMENT OF BUSINESS. 

THE HONOURABLE Sm MUHAMMAD HABIBULLAH (Member for 
Education, Health and Lands) : Sir, the lists of business for Monday and 
Tuesday next week are already in the hands of Honourable Members and 
the list of business for Wednesday will reach them this evening. 

On Thursday next motions will be made Tor the consideration and passing 
of the Promissory Notes (Stamp) Bill, the Legal Practitioners (Amendment) 
Bill and the Trade Unions Bill. The House is aware that the General 
Budget will bo presented on Monday, March the 1st. The principal 
business for Tuesday, March the 2nd, will be the Contempts of Courts Bill, 
while Wednesday, March the 3rd, is a non-official day. 

With a view to give Honourable Members an opportunity of studying 
the General Budget prior to its discussion on the following Saturday, it 
is proposed that the Council should not meet on Thursday, the 4th, and 
Friday, the 5th March. 

The Council then adjourned till Fjlcven of the Clock an Monday, the 
22nd March, 1926, * 



Copies of the Debates of the Legislative Assembly and of the 
Council of State are obtainable on sale from the Manager, Central 
Publication Branch, 8, Hastings Street, Calcutta. 



COUNCIL OF STATE 
DEBATES 



MONDAY, 22nd FEBRUARY, 1926 

Vol. VII No. 8 



OFFICIAL REPORT 




CONTENTS 



Members sworn. 

Statement laid on the Table. 

Indian Medical Education Bill Introduced. 

Election of a Panel fcr the Central Advisory Council for 
Railways. 



DELHI 
GOVERNMENT OF INDIA PRESS 

1926 



COUNCIL OE STATE. 

Monday, 22nd February , 1926. 



The Council met in the Council Chamber at Metcalfe House at Eleven 
of the Clock, the Honourable the President in the Chair. 



MEMBERS SWORN: 

The Honourable Raja Moti Chand, C.I.E. (United Provinces Southern: 
Non-Muhammadan) ; the Honourable Sir Chettur Sankaran Nair, Kt. 
(Madras: Non-Muhammadan); and the Honourable Raja Sri Rawu 
Swetachalapati Ramakrishna Ranga Rao Bahadur of Bobbili (Madras : 
Nominated Non- Official). 



STATEMENT LAID ON THE TABLE. 

THE HONOURABLE MR. J. CRERAR (Home Secretary): I lay on the 
table a statement giving information which was promised in reply to a 
question asked by the Honourable Mr. Anugraha Narayan Sinha, on the 
10th February, 1926, regarding Committees appointed in 192224. 



Year. 


Names of Committees. 


Report submitted 
or not. 


Expenditure. 


REMARKS. 








Rs. A. p. 




1922 


Committee on Public 


Yes. 


Nil. 






Petitions. 










Staff Selection Board 


11 


Nil. 






Committee. 










Indian Arms Rales 


tf 


16,046 1 






Committee. 










Frontier Enquiry Com- 


> 


76,550 






mittee. 










Railway Industries Com- 


> 


Nil. 






mittee. 










Seamen's Recruitment 


M 


7,883 13 11 






Committee. 










Railway Risk Note Com- 


1 


4,186 






mittee. 










The Indianization Com- 


l 


Not known. 






mittee. 






i 




The Waziristan Com- 


l 


Ditto. 






mittee. 









( 255 > 



256 



COUNCIL OF STATE. 



[22ND FEB. 1926. 





i 








Year. 


Names of Committees. 


Report submitted 
or not. 


Expenditure. 


REMARKS. 








RS* A. P 




1922 


The Braithwaite Com- 


Yes. 


22,448 






mittee. 










The Indian Retrench- 


,, 


71,000 






ment Committee!. 










Bengal Pilot Service 


it 


6,000 


Estimated. 




Committee. 










Machinery Committee . 





1,200 






Railway Depreciation 
Fund Committee. 


" 


38,933 






Railway Statistics Revi- 











sion Committee. 




27,870 






New Capital Enquiry 











Committee. 




8,600 






Preliminary Committee 











on Workmen's Com- 




3,913 






pensation Bill. 










Joint Committee on the < 


1,843 


Committee met when 




Cotton Transport Bill. 






the legislature was 










not in Session. 




Joint Committee on the 


"\ 








Indian Boilers Bill. 
Joint Committee on the 


C " 


3,961 13 


Ditto. 




Indian Mines Bill. 


J 






1923 


The Tariff Board . 


... 


1,52,065 (1923-24) 
(actual) 
1,97,800 (1,924-26) 
(Revised Estimate). 


The Board has sub- 
mitted 8 reports 
so far. It is still 
at work. 




i 


1M741 (1925-26) 








(Estimated). 






Indian Mercantile Yes. 


1,37,623 






Marine Committee. 










Committee to make re- 
commendations regard- 


" 


4,450 


Approximate. 




ing the re-organization 










of the administrative 










methods of the Forest 










Department. 










Coal Dust Committee . 


The Committee 


A sum of Rs. 7,692 








submitted its first 


has been incurred 








report hi May, 


up to September 








1924. Its inves- 


1925. It is an- 








tigations have not 
yet been ' com- 


ticipated that a 
further eipendi- 








pleted. Further 


ture of Rs. 2,400 








experimental work 


will be incurred. 








is being carried 










out. 








Committee on JPolice 


Yes. 


1,600 D'O 


Estimated 




Uniforms. 






". ..-; _ ' 




Calcutta High Court 




2,934 






Retrenchment Com- 




. 






mittee. 






* <** 



STATEMENT LAID ON THE TABLE. 



257 



Tear. 



Names of Committees. 



1923 



1924 



1924 



Indian Bar Committee 



Royal Commission on 
Superior Services in 
I 

Select Committee on the 
abolition of Transpor- 
tation Bill. 

Civil Justice Committee 



Reforms Enquiry Com- 
mittee. 

Carriage and Wagon 
Standards Committee. 

Locomotive Standards 
Committee. 

Colonies Committee 



Auxiliary and Territori- 
al Forces Committee. 

Indian Taxation Inquiry 
Committee. 

External Capital Com- 
mittee. 

Coal Committee . 

Post and Telegraph 
Committee. 

Standing Emigration 
Committee. 



Committee of Enquiry 
into the. working of 
tt* 'LfaAon Timber 
Agency of the Govern- 
ment of India. 



Report submitted 
or not. 



Yes. 



Expenditure. 



REMARKS. 



The Committee WSIH 
not instructed to 
submit a report 
and did not, as a 
Committee submit 
any report. 

Yes. 



Rs. A. p. 
1,17,000 
4,70,000 

180 

2,82,867 

46,000 
74,198 
33,569 

37,770 4 



Report expected 
shortly. | 

Yes. 



17,500 

5,00,000 

1 Negligible and not 
j separately recorded, 

j 76,162 

28,500 

5,140 12 



Yes. 



754 10 



Approximate includ- 
ing printing 
charges. 
Approximate. 



Excluding the cost 
of printing. 



Estimated. 
Approximate 

Approximate. 



This is a Standing 
Committee and 
meets when the 
legislature is in 
sessions. It is 
elected annually. 
No formal reports 
of the meetings of 
the Committee are 
submitted. 



INDIAN MEDICAL EDUCATION BILL. 

THE HONOURABLE BAO SAHIB DR. U. R^MA BAO (Madraa: Non-Muham- 
madan): Sir, I beg leave of the House to introduce a Bill to regulate 
medical education in India. 

The object of the Bill is clearly set forth in the Statement of Objects 
and Seasons appended to the Bill. Let me, however, make a brief state- 
ment explaining the necessity for and pointing out some of the salient 
features of the Bill., The 'Bill follows, in the main, the principles and 
procedure contaip^J m the British Medical Act of 1886. The first attempt 
at medical fef&xn in India was made in 1914, when the Madras Medical 
Registration Act III of 1914, and the Bengal Act VI of 1914, were passed. 
The other Presidencies and Provinces followed suit with the result that we 
have now 8 different pieces of legislation in 8 different Provinces pertaining 
to the registration of medical practitioners. The objects of .the legislation 
undertaken in the Provinces are no doubt identical and they are (i) to 
constitute a body called the Medical Council, which is responsible for the 
preparation and maintenance of a register of medical practitioners possessing 
certain qualifications and (ii) to secure that practitioners who are registered 
shall enjoy certain privileges and that those who are not registered shall 
suffer certain disabilities. Thus, it will be seen that the primary function 
of a Provincial Medical Council is merely to supervise the maintenance of 
the register of medical practitioners in the respective Provinces. The prin- 
cipal defects in the existing Provincial Medical Registrations Acts are lack 
of uniformity and full reciprocity. Further, these enactments have more 
to do with ethics and discipline than the organization direction and control 
of medical education. The removal of existing anomalies and the securing 
of uniformity and full reciprocity can only be obtained by legislation initiat- 
ed by the Government of India and this Bill is intended to supply that 
want. 

Another point to which I would like to invite the attention of this 'House 
is the attempt made in this Bill for the establishment of a qualification 
in the indigenous methods of treatment which are independent of western 
medical science but which administer to the needs of a large population 
in this country. The Government of India and the various Provincial 
Governments have begun to recognize, of late, the usefulness of these 
systems of medicine and havfc even gone to the length of establishing 
indigenous schools of medicine in important provincial centres for imparting 
instruction in these systems. This Bill merely provides for! a future 
contingency, when the degrees and qualifications in the indigenous systems 
of medicine come to be recognized by the proposed All-India Medical 
Council. The Council will then sanction the constitution and working rules 
and leave the rest to any Faculty of Indigenous Medicine that may come 
up hereafter. A similar device exists even in the General Medical Council 
of Great Britain where practitioners belonging to the homoeopathic 
school of medicine are thus admitted to the Council. I am simply adopting 
that procedure here. With these words, Sir, I request the leave of the 
House to introduce the Bill. 



The motion was adopted. 

HIB ] 

( 258) 



THE HONOURABLE RAQ SAHIB DR. U. EAMA BAO : Sir, I introduce fcha 
Bill, 



ELECTION OF A PANEL FOR THE CENTRAL ADVISORY COUNCIL 

FOR RAILWAYS. 

THE HONOURABLE MR. P. T. CHADWICK (Secretary, Commerce* 
Department) : Sir, I beg ir *fcove : ' 

11 That this Council do proced to elect in such manner as may be approved by 
the Honourable the President a pan'e* consisting of 8 members, from which 6 shall be 
selected to serve on the Central Advisor/ Council for Railways, as provided for in 
clause 6 of the Resolution adopted by the Legislative Assembly on the 20th Septem- 
ber, 1924, on the subject of the separation of railway finance." 

The motion was adopted. 

THE HONOURABLE THE PRESIDENT : With reference to the motion just 
adopted by the Council I understand that the Department concerned ia 
desirous that the panel should be completed at a very early date, and I 
therefore announce to the House that nominations to this panel for the 
Central Advisory Council for Kailways will be received by the Secretary 
up till 12 Noon to-morrow, and that in the event of an election being 
necessary the election will be held on Thursday, the 25th instant. With 
reference also to the terms of the motion just adopted I shall announce 
to-morrow, should an election prove necessary, the form which the election 
will take. I may also remind elected Members of the Council that the 
election of their representatives to the Court of the Delhi University will 
be held in the Members' room to-day immediately. 

The Council then adjourned, till Eleven of the Clock on Tuesday, the 
23rd February, 1926. 



Copies of the Debates of the Legislative Assembly and of the 
Council of State axe obtainable on sale from the Manager, Central 
Publication Branch, 8, Hastings Street, Calcutta. 



COUNCIL OF STATE 
DEBATES 



TUESDAY, 23rd FEBRUARY, 1926 

Vol. VII No. 9 
OFFICIAL REPORT 




CONTENTS 



Questions and Answers. 

Code of Civil Procedure (Amendment) Bill Passed. 
Indian Naturalization Bill Passed. 
Steel Industry (Amendment) Bill Passed. 
Insolvency (Amendment) Bill Passed. 
Code of Criminal Procedure (Second Amendment) Bill- 
Passed. 

Madras Civil Courts (Amendment) Bill Passed as 
-amended. 

Resolution re Grant of Supplementary Assistance to the 

Tin-plate Industry Adopted. 
Nominations to the Panel for the Central Advisory 

Council for Railways. 



DELHI 

GOVERNMENT OF INDIA PRESS 
1926 



Price Fivp. 



COUNCIL OF STATE. 

Tuesday, 3nl February, 1926. 



'Hit Council me i in the Council Chamber at Eleven of the Clock, the 
Honourable; the President in the Chair. 



QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS. 

FREKJHT ox RICE FIIOM KHITA'A TO KALHJIIAI ox THE 
EASTERN BENGAL RAILWAY. 

107. THK HONOURABLE MR. MAHMOOD SUHBAWABDY: Is it a fact 
4 hat the rale of railway freight on rice from Khulna to Kalighat on the 
JCastprn Bengal Railway was increased from 1/9 pies per maund in 1912 
lo 3/1 pies per maund in 1922? 

INCREASE OF THK/ MA KIM IT. M HATE OF RAILWAY FREIGHT ox FOOD GRAINS 

108. TUB HONOURABLE MK. MAHMOOD SITHBAWABDY : Will the 
Government be pleased to state why the maximum rate of railway freight 

on food Drains was raised in 1922 from '33 pies to '38 pies per maund pel- 
mile? 

REDUCTION OF Tin: RAILWAY FHKIOHT ox FOOD GRAINS. 

109. THK HONOURABLE Mu. MAHMOOD SUHRAWARDY : Will the 
Government be pleased to state if miy proposals are under consideration (_> 
reduce, the. present freight on food grains? 

THE HONOURABLE SIR MUHAMMAD HAB1BULLAH (on behalf of 
Ihij 'Honourable Mr. D. T. Chadwick) : I propose to answer questions Xos. 
107 to 109 together. 

In 1922, in order to meet the heavy increase in working expenses ot 
Railways, it was found necessary to -enhance ihe maximum rates chnrgo- 
*ibl" on goods traffic from 15 to 25 per cent. The maximum rate for foo-l 
grains was accordingly raised from '33 pie to '38 pie per maund per mile. 
which represented an increase of 15 per cent. The Railways have power t -> 
quote rates between the prescribed maxima and minima according to local 
circumstances and the existing scales for food grains in force over the 
principal Railways show that the rates generally charged are below ihe 
maximum. In the circumstances Government have no intention of re- 
cornmendino, any general reduction in rates for food grains. 



CONGESTION OF TITTUD CLASS FASSEXCJEH TRAFFIC ON RTATK 

110. THE HONOURABLE MR. MAHMOOD SUHRAWARDY: Will the 
Government be pleased to state whether any and, if so, what steps are 
proposed to be taken to relieve the congestion of passenger traffic ih third 



COUNCIL OF STATE. [23RD l^EB. 1926.. 

clas.s railway compartments on the several State Railways in India, and 
to give third class passengers greater comforts? 

THE HONOURABLE MR. D. T. CHADWICK: It is impossible within the 
scope of an answer to detail all that the railways have been doing for im- 
proving the conveniences for third class passengers. The baldest sum- 
mary uf what has been done for third class passengers occupies 4 pages 
in print in the Administration Beport of the Railway Board for 1924-25. 
I must therefore invite the attention of the Honourable Member to ]3ages 
67 to 71 of that Report. I would mention, however, that during the last 
two years there has been an addition of two million passenger train miles. 

REDUCTION OK FARES FOR, THIRD CLASS PASSENGERS ox STATE RAILWAYS. 

111. THE HONOURABLE MR. MAHMOOD SUHRAWARDY: Will the 
Government be pleased to state whether any and, if so, what steps are 
being taken to reduce third class passenger fares on the State Railways of 
India? 

Tire HONOURABLE M.R. D. T. GHADWICK : The question of reducing 
passenger fares has been receiving careful consideration by the Railways, 
and as a result most of the Railways arc reducing third class fares accord- 
ing to local circumstances. A fairly complete list of recent changes is pub- 
jished in the proceedings of the Standing Finance Committee on Railways 
which was printed about three weeks ago. 



CODE OF CIVIL PROCEDURE (AMENDMENT) BILL. 

THE HONOURABLE MR. S. R. DAS (Law Member) : Sir, I move that 
the Bill further to amend the Code of Civil Procedure, 1908, as passed 
by the Legislative Assembly, be, taken info consideration. 

This is a very short Bill which carries out one of the recommendations 
cf the. Civil Juslicu Committee. Under section 103 of the Civil Procedure 
Code in n second appeal the High Court may, if the evidence is sufficient, 
determine a question of fact which has been left undetermined by the 
iower appellate court. But It has no power to determine a question of 
fact which 1ms been determined by the lower appellate court, though th? 
tower appellate court came to that finding upon a misreception of 
evidence or through an error in law. The Civil Justice Committee pointed 
out that the High Court should have power to determine a question of 
iact where the decision of the lower appellate court was arrived at through 
misreception of evidence or other error of law. This Bill is merely to- 
give- effect to that recommendation. 

The it \otion was adopted. 

Clause 2 was adflcd to the Bill. 

Clause 1 was added In the Bill. 

The Title and tire Preamble were added to the Bill. 

TIIK HONOURABLE MR. S. R. DAS: Sir, I move that the Bill, as passcoT 
by the Legislative Assembly, be passed. 

The motion was adoptofl. 



INDIAN NATUKALIZATION BILL. 

THE HONOURABLE MK. J. CRERAR (Home Secretary): Sir, I move 
thai the Bill to consolidate and amend the law relating to the naturaliza- 
tion in British India of aliens resident therein, as passed by the Legisla- 
tive Assembly, be taken into consideration. 

The law in India on the subject of naturalization for the last 70 years 
has been regulated partly by the British Statute and partly by an Act nt 
the Indian Legislature, the Act of 1852. The Act of 1852, as necessarily 
follows from the limitations imposed upon the legislative powers of the 
Indian Legislature, provided only for local naturalization, that is to say, 
'for naturalization within the limits of British India. That Act was of a 
somewhat antiquated character and its amendment was under considera- 
tion when the Imperial law of naturalization was consolidated and re- 
enacted in the form of the British Statute of 1914. One of the objects of 
the British Statute of 1914 was, firstly, to devise a naturalization proce- 
dure which should be as far as possible valid throughout the British 
Empire. It was also devised to restrict as far as possible the provisions 
for local naturalization. It was obviously inconvenient that there should 
be any considerable number of persons whose status as British subjects 
was restricted to one area in the British Empire. That was inconvenient 
to the grantees of .such naturalization certificates themselves because their 
position was ambiguous and was frequently misunderstood not only by 
themselves but by others. It was inconvenient also fo our authorities 
abroad, such as consular officers as their assistance was invoked as British 
subjects by persons who did not hold that status, e.g., in the Straits Settle- 
ments. When we cnme to consider, however, trie effect of the British 
enactment of 1914, although it confers upon the Government in India 
powers in certain circumstances to grant certificates of naturaliza- 
tion of -empire-wide validity, the question arose as to whether that was 
really sufficient for our purposes. The question arose as to whether the 
provisions for a certain measure of local naturalization, as they had subsist- 
ed hitherto in India, did not in fact perform a really useful function, and 
though the considerations of uniformity which underlay the re-enactment 
and consolidation of the "British Act were of importance, nevertheless it 
appeared to us that a vcrv considerable amount of inconvenience would bo 
inflicted if the restrictions on naturalization were carried so far as <o 
abolish the modest provisions already stanrlinj; on our Statute-book. After 
somo dismission we prevailed on His Majesty's Government tr> permit 
us to proceed with this measure. It is based to a very large extent on tho 
provisions of the British Act and those of our old Act brought up to date, 
I mentioned just now that the British Act does 'confer on tho authorities 
in British India c-ertain powers for the grant of naturalization certificates 
which would be. of empire-wide validity. One of the prescriptions of the 
British Act was that nil applicants should be able to speak either English 
or some one language which was accepted in any particular British possessinn 
as the nqimalent of English. That obviously presented very serious diffi- 
culties in India. I do not intend to embark on any of those difficult ques- 
tions of n linguistic character which we have recently hod before us in 
another connection, but I think it is apparent that it would he impossible 
to prescribe any one Indian vernacular as beine: substantially equivalent 
to English throughout the whole of. the presidencies and provmoeR of 
India. It was npneeaary therefore to rlevise some provision which would 
enaMe Local Governments, in respect of their own territories, to certify 

( 263 ) A 



204. COUNCIL OF STATE. [23KD FtR. 1026. 

[Mr. J. Crerar.] 

lhat some particular vernacular was one of the principal vernaculars of 
the presidency or province. 

Those really are the most material provisions arising out otf this 
muusure. Perhaps I had better invite the attention of the House to 
OIK; matter upon which a .ood deal of misapprehension has been felt 
with regard lo this measure, that is to say, what are precisely the class 
of persons whom we desire to benefit by this measure. It has nothing 
to do with persons who already have the status of British subjects jr 
with citizens of States in Europe or America. It has not very much to 
do with persons whose normal course of acquiring British naturalization 
would he through (he* medium of 'His Majesty's Government. It is 
mainly concerned with citizens of States bordering upon India, or 
persons residing in areas bordering upon India who perhaps in \m\n\ 
cases have no very definite national status at all, but who have interests 
in India and who desire to settle in India and to obtain the privileges 
of British Indian subjects. I may take the instance of a merchant who 
came from Tibet, settled in Darjeeling, married a hill girl there and 
icqiiiml very considerable business in the sale of curios and objects 
of art. His interests lay wholly in India and he had no intention to 
return to the wilds of Tibet. It would be a- great hardship if men in 
thai position were not allowed to acquire the status of British Indian 
subjects. There is also the pretty largo class of subjects of Indian 
States who are not strictly speaking within the ri^id letter of the law, 
horn within the dominions and allegiance to His Majesty. Many such 
cases necessarily occur among the large flourishing and enterprising com- 
ineicial communities whose place of origin is in an Indian State but who 
nevertheless form no inconsiderable part of the enterprising commercial 
community of such a larpie city as Bombay. It would, I think, >e 
inequitable if we did not continue provisions which would enable, say 
the Khoja merchants settling in Bombay to acquire the status of British 
Indian subjects. Thnt is the object of the Bill which T now commend 
to the, consideration of the House. 

THK HONOURABLE THE PRESIDENT: The question is: 

" That the Bill to consolidate and amend tho law relating to the naturalization 
in British Tndia of aliens resident therein, as passed by the Legislative Assembly,. 
IIH taken into consideration." 

The motion was adopted. 

CUuiRi 2 was added to the Bill. 

Clauses 3, 4, 5 and were added to the Bill. 

Clauses 7, 8, 0, and 10 were added to the Bill. 

Clauses 11, 12. 13, 14, and 15 were added to the Bill. 

Tho Schedule \va.s added to the Bill. 

Clause 1 was added to the Bill. 

The, Title and the Preamble were added to the Bill. 

THK HONOURABLE Mn. OREItA!* : Sir, I move that tho Bill, as pns*ed 
by the Legislative Assembly, be passed. 

THK HONOURABLE MR. V. TCAMADAS PANTTTLU (Madras: Xon-Mu- 
linmmndnn) : Sir, T wish to sny only one word. T am told that there 
nvo certain countries which place restrictions upon the rights of Indians to 



INDIAN NATURALIZATION BILL. 2tf5 

iiiv real property, even if Indians become naturalized subjects of 
those countries. 1 am told that in Japan retaliatory provisions exist. 
The attention of the Government was drawn to this fact in the Assembly 
aiid Mr. Tonkinsoii promised to consider the question and introduce 
further legislation if it was a fact. I only wish to draw the attention of 
tho Honourable the Homo Secretary to this fact that, if there is such 
a distinction observed in other countries, I hope that Government will 
be willing to examine the question and take necessary action in the 
matter. 

Tire HO.VOUKABLK Mil. J. riiEHAR: Sir, if I may be allowed at this 
stiisfi' to niihwur the point raised by my Honourable friend opposite. I 
would point out that under clause 5 (1) of tho Mill powers are reserved 
in granting certificates of niitiirulixation, to except such rights and 
privileges MS may be specifically withheld by the certificate. 

TUB HONOURABLE TIIK PRESIDENT: The question is: 

'' That the Bill to con soli dale and amend the law relating to the naturitlization in 
British India of aliens resident therein, as passod by the Legislative Assembly, be 
passed." 

The motion was adopted. 



KTKKL IXUUSTUY (AMENDMENT) BILL. 

'I'm.: HoxouiiAiiLK MB. D. T. CHAD WICK (Commerce Secretary): Sir, 
I beg to move that the Bill to amend (he Steel Jndustry (Protection) Act, 
10*24, for the purpose of increasing the total amount payable by way of 
bounties under that Act, in respect of railway wagons and of providing 
for the grant of bounties in respect of unrlerframes for railway passenger 
carnages, as passed by the Legislative Assembly, be taken into considera- 
tion. 

The reason for this amending Bill is very simple and practical. This 
Conncil will recollect that it passed tho Steel Industry (Protection) Act 
in June. 1924. Section 4 of that Act permitted the. Governor General in 
Council to pay 7 lakhs a year for three years by way of bounties on 
wagons manufactured in India. Immediately after that Act was passed 
tenders for wagons were called for and orders were placed in August, 
1924. By that time, however, five months of that official year had passed, 
and as it takes any manufacturer some time, after getting his order, to 
collect his material, it was impossible in that year to pay out tho wh"le 
of the 7 lakhs of bounties that was authorised for that year by the 
Act. In fact, as every business man knows, and tho Houso will see nt 
once, what the "Railway Board wishes to know in this matter of bounties IR 
what bounties are available at the timo whon they are placing the orders. 
They are not so much interested as to what is happening at the time 
at which the wagons are delivered, hut it is whon they arc placing orders 
and are comparing the different prices of tenders, it is then that thov 
want to know what amount of bounty is available. That is the great 
reason of this Bill. We aro in fact- changing tho form of this section 
round, and as the House will see. we are givine the Governor General in 
Council permission to inc.ur liahilftios for bounties at the time whon thf 
orders ar placed. Arising from the same practical business fact there is 



266 COUNCIL OF 8TAT1. [2&RD FlB. 1026. 

[Mr. D. T. Chadwick/l 

another difficulty. This Steel Protection Act is in force to the 31st March 
1927, and next year there will be a complete inquiry into the steel industry. 
This Council will probably at about this time next year be considering 
whatever recommendations are then made, if any. But in August, 1926, 
it will be about time for the llailway Board to place their orders for wagons 
for delivery next year, and therefore they will wish to know next August 
whether for wagons to be delivered during 1927-28 any bounties will be 
availably The Tariff Board inquired into this point, and they have 
recommended that bounties should be given to cover wagons ordered for 
delivery in 1927-28. This Bill provides for that. 

Now, Sir, 1 have given the reasons for this Bill; I will take its practical 
tiffect. The Steel Industry (Protection) Act allowed a total amount of 
21 lakhs to be spent in three years. This Bill allows Government to incur 
a liability of 38 Lakhs spread over four years instead of three, and for the 
last two years of this period to bring under the bounty system under- 
frurncs as well as wagons. 1 need not detain the Council over clause 4 (J) 
of UIG Bill. That merely deals with past history; it merely turns into the 
language of the ISill what has already happened. During the last two 
years Government have incurred liabilities on wagons of 13'59 lakhs, 
That is the sum whie.h is referred to as 13'60 lakhs in clause 4 (a,). Clause 
4 (b) is the real one of interest because that deals with the present. The 
Council will observe, that this authorises the Governor General in Council 
to incur an additional expenditure of .Us. 19,40,000 on bounties for wagons 
and in iderf raines. The Tariff Board recommended 40 Inkhs. We have 
reduced it to Us. 19,40,000. The Council will quite rightly expect me 
to tfive some explanation for this. The Tariff Board found very definitely 
flint I here was no need to increase tho rate per wagon of bounties, but 
it did fiiid that the number of wagons that could be delivered in India 
\v;\s very much larger than they had anticipated, with the result that 
while the total rate of bounty per wagon was less, the total amount 
required was more than they had anticipated. For instance, in their 
first report they forecasted it wns probcible that, under the bounty system 
the wagon firms in India would, in tlie course of five years, be able to 
produce 1,000 wagons a, year. \Yell, Sir, Inst October the Railway Board 
placed orders for 3,200 wagons to be delivered in 1926-27. "Realising that a 
larger sum would be needed the Tnriff Board had to estimate how much 
would be required. They sent in their report in October last- and they had 
then only available for calculation the results of tenders of January 1925. 
From an examination of those tenders they deduced that as much as Rs. 600 
ner wa<?on would probahlv be required for orders this year and 
Rs. 500 per wagon for orders to be placed next year. Taking as probable 
an output of 3,000 wagons in 1926-27 and of 3,200 wagons for delivery hi 
1927-28, the Board calculated that 18 lakhs each year would he required. 
However. Sir, since the receipt of the Tariff Board's report we h^vtf 
examined the tenders whieh were called for at the end of 1925. On 
examining them in November or December last the Railway Board found 
that it was possible to place orders in India for 3,200 wagons for delivery 
in 1926-27 instead of the 3,000 the Board expected, and that in order to 
do so, the total amount of bounty that would bo required would be some- 
what under 7J lakbs, instead of the 18 lakhs which the Board had estimated. 
I do not for a moment think that the Council would agree to authorise 
the Governor General to spend 11 lakhs extra upon this purpose when th'e 



STEEL INDUSTRY (AMENDMENT) BILL. 267 

latest figures available show that 7J lakhs have been sufficient. It cnn 
be assumed fairly safely that about the same sum ought to suffice for the 
next year. As the House sees, that practically halves the Board's 
estimate Another two lakhs we expect would be required for underframes 
which now the Tariff Board say -should be brought within the bounty 
system. Hence it is clear that nineteen lakhs should be ample to cover 
all orders for delivery in the next- two years. That, Sir, is the full extent - 
of this Bill. I submit to the House it is simple; it is straightforward: 
it is a practical business proposition, and it is conceived both in economy 
and in fairness, and I ask the House to support it. 

THE HONOURABLE THE PEESTDENT: The question is: 

" That the Bill to amend the Steel Industry (Protection) Act, 1924, for the purpose 
of increasing the total amount payable by way of bounties under that Act, <in respect 
of railway wagons and of providing for the grant of bounties in respect of under- 
frames for railway passenger carriages, as passed by the Legislative Assembly, be 
taken into consideration." 

The motion was adopted. 

Clause 2 was added to the Bill. 

Clauses 3 and 4 were added to the Bill. 

Clause 1 was added to the Bill. 

The Title and the Preamble were added to the Bill. 

THE HONOURABLE MR. D. T. CHADWICK: Sir, I beg to move that the 
Bill, as passed by the Legislative Assembly, be passed. 

THE HONOURABLE Sin ARTHUR FROOM (Bombay Chamber of Com- 
merce) : Sir, I merely wish to say a few words with regard to this Bill 
and those words are in the form of a warning, a warning which I have 
given voice to in this House on more than one occasion. I would like the 
House to consider carefully where these, protective duties and bounties 
are leading this country. Bounties sound very nice. They sound like a 
very pleasing gift. "Rut Honourable Members should remember that, when 
you make, a present to anybody you "have got- to pay for it; and on this 
occasion the country is paying for these, bounties. T think T cannot better 
illustrate what T have, in mind tlum by a short reference to the speech 
made in this Council by the Chief Commissioner for "Railway** in introduc- 
ing his Railway Budget. On page, 10 he spoke ns follows: 

11 The difference betwonn these prices and the equivalent of the lowest satisfactory 
quotation from abroad will bo met from bounties payable under the Steel Protection 
Act. 11 

By " these prices " he was referring to the prices or the cost of wagons 
and steel frames bought in this country, and he at once demonstrated that 
he could have bought them cheaper elsewhere. Now T nm not averse to 
assisting industries, these wagon-building industries, in their infancy; but 
what T do want to lay stress on is that after they have been in existence 
for a few years if they cannot manufacture wagons and frames in competi- 
tion with the wagons and frames which can be purchased elsewhere, then 
I think the industries had better rlose down. The "Railwav Department 
on this special occasion T think might be considered to be standing on 
velvet. What are thev doing? They are buying wagons, the full cost of 
which they ought to debit in their accounts and then immediately write 
them down. And where would they get the monev to write down? Not 
from the railway accounts. That is not keeping your accounts com- 
mercially, because you are obtaining your money for writing down from the 



COUNCIL OF STATE, [23HD FEB. 19'J6. 

[Sir Arthur Froom.] 

tax-p?iyor of India, through another Department. Sir, I do not wish to say 
anything further on this. I am not opposing the Hill, because, as 
have said, the constituency I represent have not opposed the principle of 
some assistance being given to these industries in their infancy: but I do 
maintain that after a few years, during which they have been assisted, 
these industries ought to walk by themselves. 

THE HONOURABLE MR. D. T. CHADWICK : Sir, with regard to what 
my Honourable friend has said, I would only remark that the object which 
ho has so dourly put before the Council is the object wo sill have in view 
in this policy of discriminating protection. As was explained when the 
Resolution regarding that policy was brought before the Assembly, it was 
no part of the Government's idea that bounties should be paid "for ever. 
It is our hope T trust it may not be a false hope, that in a few years 
these firms will be able to stand and meet competition without assistance. 
In that direction T would only point out n f;-w f;iots. Tn the first U?MV, 
as is shown in the last Report of the Railway Board, bounties were given at 
the rj.ite of somewhere near TCs, fiOO to Rs. 700 per wagon. On the tenders 
to which I just alluded, opened in December last, although everybody 
knows in the, last 3 years how the prices of steel have fallen, it wni only 
necessary to give, per wagon a bounty of Rs. 228. I trust Hint in another 
year that sum per wagon will bo considerably less. Lnsllv, Ihe whole 
question will bo examined again during the current year, 1026-27, by the 
Tariff Board. Thus the rate of bounty per wagon is coming rlowii rmrl 
another inquiry is due, but yet T believe, the Council, OP P whole, endnrse 
the principle, wHich the Honourable Sir Arthur Froom has just enunciated. 

THE TToNoruAHLE TITE PRESIDENT : The question is : 

" That tlir Bill to amend the Steal Industry (Protection) Act. 1924, for the purpose 
of inerea.siiijr thi total amount payable bv way of bounties under that J\ot, in respect 
>f raH way wagons and of providing for the grant of bounties in respect of underframes 
for railway p;isseny;er carriages, as passed by the Legislative Assembly, be passed." 

The motion was adopted. 

INSOLVENCY (AMENDMENT) BILL. 

TITE HONOURABLE Mu. S. R. DAS (Law Member): Sir, T move, that the 
Bill to amend the Presidency -towns Insolvency Act, 1009, and tlie Pro- 
vincial Insolvency Act., 1920, as passed by the Legislative Assembly, be 
taken into consideration. 

This Bill also seeks to give effect to certain recommendations of the 
Tivil Justice Committee. In the first place, if. extends the Presidency- 
towns Insolvency Act to the town of Karachi where now the Provincial 
Insolvency Act applies. Then it amends section 104 of the Presidency- 
towns Insolvency Act as also a similar section in the Provincial Insolvency 
Act. Bv that it deals with offences ngainst the Insolvency Act. Hitherto 
those offences have had to be tried bv the High Court in a Presidency- 
town and in a district town bv the District Judge and took up a con- 
siderable part of their time. The amendment, which is in accordance with 
the recommendation of the Civil Justice Committee, enacts that if the 
Insolvency Court is of opinion that an offence has been eomrmtted then 
it has to complain to the Presidency Mnefistrnte in a Presidencv-town 
or to a Magistrate of the first class in the district towns, and that the* 



.INSOLVENCY (AMENDMENT) BILL. 

Magistrate is to try Hie offences in the regular way. The other amend- 
ments are more or less consequential amendments for the purpose of 
carrying out those two objects. 

The motion was adopted. 

Clause 2 was added to the Bill. 

Clauses 3, 4, 5 and were added to the "Bill. 

Clauses 7, 8, 9, 10 nnd 11 were mldod to the Bill. 

Cluusi- 1 was added to the Bill. 

Tho Title and the Pr.'amblo wciv added to the Bill. 

THE HoxorRAJiLK ATi*. S R. DAS- Sir, J move thai tin- Hill, a 
by the Legislative Asse.mbly, ho passed. 

Tin* motion was adopted. 



ob 1 CRIMINAL PUOCKDURE (SF.POND AMENDMENT) 
BILL. 

TIIK HoxorKAHLK W\*. J. CKKTiAH (Homo Secretary): Sir, I move that 
tlio Bill fnrt hor to amend the Code of Criminal Procedure, 1898, for a 
cerium purpose, as parsed by tlie Legislative Assembly, bo taken into con- 
sideration. 

Sir, I nri'iitly hud rici-usion to present to this House a measure, includ- 
ing ilnvr nr four distinct Hnns. which involved amendments of the 
CriMi'iutl Procedure Code. These were intended to rectify certain defects 
which luid been found in practice to emerge from the amendment of the 
Criminal Procedure (-ode in 1023. Of the measure as originally presented 
in anotli'-r place 1 one 1 item \\as at that time not passed. On further consi- 
deration, T am glad to say, i( has been passed and it is with respect to 
that item that T iiiukc the motion standing in my name. Until the nmend- 
ment of the ('ode of rriininal Procedure*, in 1023, it was open to the 
MjijjistTflte, Mhere ;i person failed to give security under those sections of 
tin- Criminal Procedure Code which are commonly called the bad livelihood 
sections, to order thai in de fault of seeurity the imprisonment awarded might 
be either rigorous or simple. The effect of the amendment passed in 1923 
ws to remove from lln- discretion of the Magistrate the power lo award 
either simple or rigorous imprisonment in cases of orders tnado under sec- 
tion 108 or section 100 of the Code. The measure which T now present 
to tlm House has nothing whatever to do with section 108. It relates 
solely to seel ion 100, that is to say, to cases where , Magistrate has re- 
ceived in formal ion : 

(u) that iv criminal is taking precautions to conceal his presence within 
the local limits of sueih Magistrate's jurisdiction, and that there is reason 
to beliove thnl sucli p^i'fton is taking such precautions with a view to com- 
mitting any offence, or 

({)) that there is within such limits a person who has no ostensible 
means of subsistence, or who cannot give a satisfactory account of himself. 
T invite the very close attention of the House to these two prescriptions 
which are very material indeed to the objects of the Bill. The discretion 
of the Magistrate to award either simple or rigorous imprisonment was re- 
moved when the Act was amended in 1023 and the effect of that amend- 
ment has been founS to be extremely inconvenient. A greater part, at 
any rate a very considerable part, of the persons against whom action of 



270 COUNCIL OF STATE. [2 3RD FEB. 1926. 

[Mr. J. Crerar.J 

this character is necessary are, as the House will readily realize, persons 
who, under the corresponding English law, which is a more severe law, 
namely, the Vagrancy Act of 1924, would be denominated either idle and 
disorderly persons or rogues and vagabonds or incorrigible rogues. Of the 
total of 3,000 persons now in prison in pursuance of this section no less 
than one-third were persons with previous convictions against them. They 
wore persons who are in the ordinary parlance called jail birds. Two in- 
con venicrices arose or rather two distinct classes of inconvenience arose. 
H was a matter of great difficulty to the Magistrates that they could not in 
the cases coming before them really discriminate in cases which required 
discrimination. There was a large proportion of cases in which the Magis- 
trate was conscious that in awarding simple imprisonment he was ordering 
a most inappropriate form of imprisonment. Honourable Members are 
aware that when a sentence of simple imprisonment is awarded cither under 
these preventive sections or for any specific offence, the person so 
sentenced cannot, except of his own free will, be called upon to do any 
kind of work while in prison. He can while away his time- from morning till 
night doing nothing. He is fed, clothed and housed at the expense of the 
State, but he docs not do or may not do one single hand stroke to earn 
his bread or to reduce the charges which fall upon the tax-payers of the 
country. That is a very unsatisfactory state of things. It is very un- 
satisfactory that the discretion of the Magistrate should be restricted in 
this way. I may also mention that there was another kind of inconvenience 
which emerged from the operation of this amendment. It related to the 
internal administration of the jails. Every Local Government reports that 
both their Magistrates and their jail officials have, complained of the evil 
results which are the consequence of the removal of this discretion from 
the Magistrate'. .First of all, faking broadly the class of persons against 
whom action under this section may be necessary, it must, I think, be 
obvious that to detain a man for. 12 months with no honest, work which he 
can bo compelled to- do is very demoralizing to him. Tt would be demoral- 
izing to any man. Tt is particularly demoralizing to a person who from the 
character of his antecedents ancl possibly of his environment I do not 
entirely blame the man but we have to take things as they are is naturally 
i nd is posed to rlo any honest work. Further, the m. inner of his life in 
jail does not dispose him to do honest work after ho emerges from tlie 
jail. Tt is not onlv demoralizing to him but it is also demoralizing to his 
associates. The House- will realize that, besides persons in jail under sec- 
tion 109 there are a- considerable number of persons who have been sentenc- 
ed to simple imprisonment. Simple imprisonment is awarded normally in 
cases whore the character of the offence or the character of the convicted 
person is such that he onsht not to be put to rigorous imprisonment. In 
other words, von set quite a number of people who are certainly not jail 
birds, habitual thieves, habitual robbers or habitual bad characters or idlers 
or vagabonds but. are persons who have broken some provision of the law 
and are sent to jail. Mnny of thcjn are in other respects quite respect- 
able persons. Now, is it reasonable or proper that, thev should be mixed 
up with n considerable number of persons dealt with under these sections 
who nre ex hypothec in the vast majority of cases persons of the badmaah 
class? My point is that the award of simple imprisonment without any 
discretion on the part of the Magistrate is demorcilizincr not only to the 
person proceeded against under section 109, but it is also demoralizing to his 
associates who are not of the same character as himself and, generally 



CODE OF CRIMINAL PROCEDURE (SECOND AMENDMENT) BILL. 7 1 

speaking, it is very prejudicial to the maintenance of discipline in a jail 
where persons of these different classes arc confined together. Sir, that 
is the object of restoring this discretion to the Magistrate. 

It has been urged that it is not necessary to grant this discretion to 
-a Magistrate because section 110 of the Criminal Procedure Code is suffi- 
ciently wide. Now, I ask the House to give its very close attention to the 
precise provisions of section 109. I will now, if the House will hear with 
mo because it is a matter of considerable importance, read out to them 
the provisions of section 110. Action under section 110 may be taken 
against any person who : 

() is by habit a robber, house-breaker or thief, or 

(b) is by habit a receiver of stolen property knowing the same to have been stolen, or 

(c) habitually protects or harbours thieves or aids in the concealment or disposal 
oi stolen property, or 

(e) habitually commits, or attempts to commit, or abets the commission of, offences 
involving a breach of the peace, or 

(/) is so desperate and dangerous as to render his being at large without security 
.hazardous to the community." 

Now, it does not require very close examination of these provisions to see 
that they apply to a different class of persons from those dealt with under 
section 109. It may be that persons who have at one time been dealt 
with under section 110 may subsequently come within the scope of sec- 
tion 109, but it is entirely wrong to allege, as has been alleged, that section 
110 fully provides for all cases of habitual offenders. 

Let me explain that a little more in detail. Under section 110 any 
of the habitual offenders falling within the terms of that section may be 
required to give security for good behaviour and on failing to do so may 
be sentenced to imprisonment not exceeding three yc:irs. If it were not 
necessary after a man has done a period of say one year to find any further 
cause against him, it will be open to the police officer to arrest the man 
the moment ho has loft (he j;iil. He can take him before a Magistrate and 
if tho Magistrate thinks fit he can award another sentence ot one yenr. 
It has been held repeatedly bv the High Court that after a person has been 
discharged after his period whether of security or imprisonment under sec- 
tion 110 lie must be given an opportunity to show whether or not ho reallv 
intends to take up an honest moans of livelihood, and unless and until 
you give him the opportunity you cannot proceed against him under that 
section. That explains how it is that a man mav have ton or fifteen, in 
some cases seventeen, previous convictions, or have been proceeded against 
five or six times before under section 110, but when he comes out from his 
last period under section 110 you cannot proceed against him unless he has 
once aojain brought himself within the danger of that section. He may 
be concealing himself within (he loeal Hmi(s of the Magistrate *s jurisdiction, 
he may have given reasons to believe that ho is about to commit an offence, 
but he has not brought himself within the danger of section 110. He has 
brought l.imself within the danger of section 100. I have made this some- 
what lensrthy explanation because there has been rather persistent mis- 
apprehension of trip real rase. Roction 110 deals with classes of cases of 
a different kind and is not n substitute for section 109. These sections 
dea-1 with two very, distinct classes of oases. While T ask the Hmse .to 
restore that discretion to Magistrates in resppot of action taken under sec- 
tion 109, I would likp to point out that, additional safeguards have been 
provided and will still be in operation. Formerly a person proceeded 



272 COUNCIL OF STATE. [23RD I'fiB. 1920. 

[Mr. J. C.rentr.] 

against under these sections hud :iu iippeiil Lu a District Magistrate. Now 
In- lias got an appeal to a Sessions Court and tin 1 ivvisionary powers of tin- 
JHigh Court stiJJ continue. Therefore there is very little likelihood of this 
section being abused. If it is abused the person concerned has an easy 
and adequate remedy. 

I make the motion standing in my name. 

THE HONOURABLE THE I J l?ESIDI.Vf: The qiu-Miou is: 

" That tlic- Hill further lo .nm-ml llir- Cwle cit' Cnniimii Procedure, 189C, for a 
certain purpose, as [hissed hy llio Jji'giJiithi. 1 Aiai-mlily, bit r.iken into consideration." 

The motion was adopted. 

Clause 2 was added to the Hill. 

Clause 1 \vjis add wl to the 11 ill. 

The Title and the Preamble \\en- added lo the Bill. 

THE HoNouitAiiLK Mil. J. (/JlMHAll: I move iliuL the Bill, as passed 
by the Legislative Assembly, be passed. 

TJIE HoxouicAifijf MH. V. JiAMADAS PANTl-IA' (Madras: Non-Mu- 
lianimiidun) : Sir, it is impossible for nu- to record it silent vote on this- 
motion. It will be in the memory oi' Members of this House tbal the 
same provision whiuh is sought to be introduced by this Bill was twice 
negatived in tin* Legislative Assi-mbl\ on former ocr.-isions. Jt \vas onl\ 
in September 10 k 25 that the Honourable the Home Member sought to iv- 
introduct 1 . this provision inlo ihe ('riiniii.-il J'roc-edure Codf and that al tempt 
1'iiiled. It has no doubt suucccilud recently in th Assemljly, but there 
was a very wide divergence of opinion on tbe question; therefore I have 
decided not to record a silcni vote on this molion. Before I say anything, 
Sir, against tho proposal embodied in tiiis small Bill 1 uish to assure the 
Government thai we who oppose such measures are not so dense or per- 
verse as not to recognise, the use of legislative measures which arc intend- 
ed to promote law and order in this coimlrx. A\'e recognise that such 
measures are intended mainly for Ihe benefit of c.it.izens. Therefore, when 
we oppose some of them, it is not due to am feeling of hostility to measures 
inaugurated by the Executive (loveniment. but it, is only because we feel 
that the mischief of the Statute which is sought to be introduced far 
outweighs its benefits in some cases It is realh sad comment on the 
political aspect of our legislation that the Legislatures distrust the exe- 
cutive and thc executive distrust the Legislatures. But 1 hope that each 
of us will make our position clear and that tin TO will be no room for mis- 
understanding. 

So far as this measure is concerned, my objections to it are three- 
fold. Firstly, T maintain that section 109 is intended to be a preventive 1 
measure and not a punitive measure. T quite* agre( with the Honourable 
the Home Secretary that sections 110 and 100 deal with different classes 
of persons. T will concede ihat; but at the same time it is by no means 
certain that, persons who ought to be proceeded against under section 110 
are not frequently proceeded against, under section 100. T do not contend 
that we can properly bring persons for whom section 110 is intended under 
section 109. Many of the persons who nro now in jail 'under sections 110 
ftnd 109 should have been run in under section 110, not under section 109. 
That is the comment T make. Section 109 is intended to deal with two 
classes of persons. 



CODE uF CULMJN'AL PJlOL'EDrKE (SliCOND AMENDMENT) liJLL. ^7;j 

The class of persons covered by clause (a) are those who conceal them- 
selves with intent to commit an offence, and clause (6) deals with the class nf 
persons who arc vagrants or vagabonds and who have no ostensible means 
of livelihood and are not able to give a satisfactory account of themselves. It 
is meant to apply to persons of bad livelihood or persons who adopt a dis- 
honest means of livelihood or persons who harbour criminal intent. And 
these persons are sought to be prevented from committing any crime. My 
submission is that the requirements of the State and the requirements of 
the citizen \\ill be absolutely nu-L by preventing these people from com- 
mitting the intended crimes by putting them in jail and imposing simple 
imprisonment upon them. To give them hard labour and treat them like 
other criminals who are convicted for substantive offences is unjustifiable 
under a civilized law. That is my first objection. The second objection 
is this. The Honourable the Home Secretary said that all that was asked 
for was mere discretion for the Magistrate either to give simple imprison- 
ment or rigorous imprisonment, and thut it was not necessary to give in 
every case rigorous imprisonment. It is true that nil that the section 
seeks to secure is merely discretion, but, Sir, we know that when the 
judicial and executive functions are not separated and the Magistrates are 
mostly responsible to the executive head of the district, this discretion is 
-si very illusory one. The Magistrate is likely to exercise the discretion 
more by executive bias or executive exigencies than in a judicial manner. 
We. were told by the Home Secretary that a substantial improvement was 
made in the law when section 406 was amended so as to make the appeal 
lie not to the District Magistrate, but to the Sessions Judge in the case of 
mofussil courts, and to the Hich Court in the case of Presidency Magis- 
trates. But those of us who have been practising in the courts for some 
time know that appellate 1 courts rarely interfere with discretionary orders. 
Therefore it is no use tailing us that the original Magistrate exercises dis- 
cretion subject to an appeal. Then, Sir, the third objection is that no 
case has been made out wiihin the last three or four months, since Sep- 
tember 1925, to ask for a law which was then deliberately turned down 
by the Assembly. The Assembly refused in September *ast to embody 
this provision in the Criminal Procedure Code and then to come up after 
six months' time with the same proposal requires a very strong case, and 
I submit no case has been made out. T note in this connection that a 
White Paper was put in the hands of Members of the Assembly embody- 
ing the opinions of the Local (lovernments and authorities concerned in 
the administration of the jails. The same courtesy has not boon shown 
to the Members of this House. I do not complain. T can assure my Hon- 
ourable friend opposite that T had an opportunity of looking into that 
book by the kind courtesy of a Member of the Assembly who had it. Tt 
does not impress me sit all. The only reasons stated there are that the 
Local Governments considered that in some cases simple imprisonment 
was absolutely inadequate and the iail authorities considered that putting 
people into jail without work would demoralise the other inmates in the 
jail. These are certa'mlv no arguments in favour of sentencing to hard 
labour people who are merely convicted on suspicion and sent to jail to 
prevent them from committing somo crime, in the future and not because 
they committed some offence under the Penal Code. These arguments 
are unconvincing and T do not think they form any basis for the change 
'In the law such as is now advocated. 

Then, Sir, "finnllv this section 109 has been misused very badly in 
! manv cases. Tin* most glaring instance of it was the Na^pur Flag case. 



274. COUNCIL OF 8TA1H. [WlW 1'EB. J026. 

[Mr. V. Kamadas Pantulu.J 

Hundreds of persons who had good means of livelihood were run in under 
that section and sent to jail for long terms. I know personally many of 
thoso young men who went to jail. Some of them were graduates of the 
Universities and had ample means of livelihood in their own homes, but 
when they went from my part of the country to Nagpur they could give 
no satisfactory account of themselves because they had no property in 
Nugpur. Many of them were sent to jail on the charge of being persons 
who had no ostensible means of livelihood. That is enough to show that 
that law is an engine of oppression in the hands of those who wish to use 
it so. I know 1 will be told that if a section is misused, it is no use saying 
the form of imprisonment should be simple and not rigorous, and if a 
section is misused it is no argument against the section. If however the 
mischief of the section cannot be remedied, we at least want some restraint 
on that mischief by seeing that people who are run in under the section 
escape the hardship of rigorous imprisonment. 1 am able to say, from a 
perusal of the debate in the Assembly, that the- fact that the section was 
misused was not seriously disputed even by the Government. Therefore, 
Sir, wo are not impressed with the Government's case for a change in the 
section, and the Government have not really disclosed their motive or their 
reasons for this demand for n revision of the Statute at such a short in- 
terval since September 1925. There is a widespread belief that there is 
some dark motive underlying this enactment, and whether it is so or not, 
I am content to base my objection on the broad grounds that no case has 
been made out, that the discretion is an illusory one, and being a pre- 
ventative and not a punitive section, hard labour is not justified! I will only 
add one word; if keeping people who are sent to jail, without doing any 
work is considered to bo objectionable from the standpoint of the State, 
because they are fed there while doing nothing, and it is considered that 
such people are likely to demoralise other inmates of the jails, I would 
suggest one remedy. Such people who are not really criminals and who 
are sent to jail because they are, not able to give a satisfactory account of 
themselves, should be provided with work in some kind of institutions like 
workhouses wnWe their services could be utilised and where at the same 
time they are not subjected to the humiliations and hardships of rigorous 
imprisonment like persons who are eonvicted of substantial offences. The 
State ought to be humane, in the treatment of such persons who arc im- 
prisoned merely on suspicion for failure to give security. For all these 
reasons, Sir, I cannot but vote against this motion. 

THE HONOURABLE BAI BAHADUR NALININATB SETT (West Bengal : 
Non-M\iliammadan) : Sir on a consideration of the deb-ite that took place 
in the Assembly over the Bill, I had to look into the history and decisions 
regarding sections 100 and 123 of the Code of Criminal Procedure as 
amended in 1023. T find that the Select Committee then appointed went 
into the matter fully and were deliberately of opinion thut " in cases 
under sections 108 and 109, imprisonment- in default of furnishing 
security should be simple." The said Select Committee consisted of men 
of experience, in the legal line such ns Sir Tej Bahadur Snpru. Sir William 
Vincent, Mr. J. Ghaudhri. Sir B. C. Mitter. as well as you, Sir. That 
the above was not a mere passing observation is also evidenced bv a con- 
sequential amendment of section 397 of the Code bv the addition of R 
proviso under clause 103 of their report. 

That proviso laid down that "imprisonment for a subsequent offence- 
will not be concurrent with detention under section 123." This shows nofr 



CODE OF CRIMINAL PROCEDURE (SECOND AMENDMENT) BILL. 275.' 

only deliberation on the part of the Select Committee as also their point 
of view that an order under section 123 is nob a sentence but merely 
detention. And this is quite consonant with judicial decisions. This 
order of imprisonment for failure to give security is not u conviction for 
an offence under section 73 of the Indian Penal Code. The person 
proceeded against is not an accused under section 167 or under section 
250 of the Code. He is committed to prison and not sentenced. It is. 
upon these judicial decisions, I think, the learned Members of the Select 
Committee made it consistent with the idea of mere detention and made 
the term of imprisonment merely simple. 

Sir, I have not been able to find any mention of these obvious facts 
cither in the speech of the Honourable the Home Member at the timo 
of the consideration of the Bill in the Assembly or by any of the 
supporters. Nor was any reason given by any one as to why the weighty 
opinion of the said Sub-Committee, us I have shown" should be brushed 
aside. I have also gone through the White Paper c'rculated along with 
the Bill, and I have not missed the appeal made by the Honourable tin 1 
Home Member when he said : 

" The implications of this are far beyond the mere amendment I am moving. I 
am asking the House to co-operate in making an amendment which has been recom- 
mended by executive authority in India. T am asking this House to say once for 
all whether they will, in any circumstances, under any conditions, carry any measure . 
wiiK.ii !& brought forwaid vnili the united force of the executive." 

I have on my part equally to put it to the Government : the implica- 
tions of this are far beyond the amendment asked for. I ask them, has not 
the executive from the very start of the Code in 192,3 moved to restore 
the discretionary power of the Magistrate to award simple or rigorous 
imprisonment in default of furnishing security under section 109? Do 
not the reports furnish an ample answer that they did not co-operate 
to appreciate the view of criminal jurisprudence taken by the Select Com- 
mittee? Do not the reports suggest flint their view of the order under 
section 123 is punishment and not detention? Do not the jail reports 
point to the only conclusion that the vanities of the jail authorities have 
been touched by men who are not guilty pf any insubordination but only 
11 wear an expression of superiority " over other prisoners? The White 
Paper furnishes an example th.it our executive is very slow to move 
and to assimilate advanced ideas of criminal law that hard labour and 
harsh measures are often incentives to harden a prisoner. I would have 
been glad if any amendment con Id he moved that rigorous imprisonment 
should not be. awarded to any one who had not been previously convicted 
under any Mentions of Chapters XVI and XVII of the Indian Penal Code, 
(offonnns against person and properly) but as it is. T ha.ve no other alter- 
native but. to opposp it. 

THE HONOURABLE MR. T. C. DESTKA CHART (Burma: General): Sir, 
in opposing this amoiulmmt T shall lay before the House certain legal con- 
siderations and rriy humble experience in the working of the Criminnl 
Procedure Oodn in some of the provinces of India. Section 100, sub- 
clause (I)), as it stands, applies not only to cases of bad livelihood which 
the Legislatures intended to deal with, but also covers cases of mis- 
fortune where a person fails to get some moans of livelihood. Of course 
the original object was to dc.nl with persons of bad livelihood, but as it stnnds 
the section IB broad enough; and when the principle underlying that pre- 
ventive section is taken into account the present amendment is certainly 
very objectionable As my friend the Honourable Mr. Nalininath Setf, 



270 COUNCIL OF STATE. [23HD FEB. H^G. 

[Mr. T. C. Desika Chari.] 

Hai Bahadur, pointed out, tho action to be taken b} the Magistrate under 
the provisions of the preventive sections \vns not by giving a substantive 
punishment but by taking only a measure of prevention or safeguard against 
certain classes of persons doing injury to the safet) of person or property 
in the State. My objection to this amendment is that it tries to overlook 
tho principle on which these sections are ba-sed and to bring in a measure 
of punishment into the Criminal Procedure Code in dealing with persons 
under section 109. I have carefully gone over the \Vhite Paper which was 
placed in the hands of Members of Ihe Legislative Assembly, and from a 
reading of the opinions of the various LOCM! Governments and tho jail 
authorities it is perfectly clear to me that they want to make uiit a case 
for giving rigorous imprisonment in the cases covered by section 10U by 
pleading that there are a large number of people convicted under that 
section who are persons who can easily come under section 110. It is this 
way. There is an abuse of section 109 and as a result of the abuse persons 
who ought to have been dealt with under section 110 have been dealt with 
under section 109. And so there is a large proportion of people dealt >vith 
under section 109, who are persons of notoriously bad character, who have 
had several previous convictions and who ought to be differently dealt with 
from persons who have had no previous conviction at nil. t tried very 
carefully to follow the speech of the Honourable) the Home Secretary, and 
there also I found his reason for bringing in this amendment is that snun. 
after a person is released from imprisonment under section 110 he cannot 
be dealt with under the same section without being given an opportunity 
of showing that he. was trying to reform himself. His object, I take it in 
bringing in this amendment, is to make away with that safeguard by pro- 
ceeding under section 109 against those persons. That is the purpose, -s 
I understand it, of tho Honourable the Home Secretary in bringing in 
this form of punishment for a purely preventive measure. 

My second objection is that it is no good saying "It is discretionary 
and the discretion will be properly exercised ; there are cases where discre- 
tion nmy bo properly exercised and so provision ought to be made to give 
discretion t o the Magistrate to give either simple imprisonment or rigorous 
imprisonment." The principle to be applied to all these cases from f \ 
purely judicial point of view is this. Il is bettor to make provision which 
may allow a number of people to escape from tho clutches of justice 
rather than that one man who ought not 1o be dealt with under the 
provisions of Ihis section should be brought under it. That is better in 
cases of doubt, it is no explanation to say that Magistrates nre all right, 
they know how to exercise discretion and so on. The question is they 
ought not, to bo allowed 1o exorcise a discretion which may possibly work 
hardship in the caso of at least some people who ought not- to be ^iven 
rigorous imprisonment. 

THK HONOURABLE Mn. J. CRERAR: But how could these Magistrates 
at all on that basis? " 

THE HONOURABLE MR. T. C. DERIKA CHART: My answer to that is 
Magistrates deal with this section, and if they are given this discretion there 
ma\ be some chance of a person who ought not to be given rigorous imprison- 
ment being given rigorous imprisonment under this section. It may he an 
extraordinary circumstance, but all the same it is the duty "of the Legislature 
to frame the law in such a manner as not to give any scope of such abuse 
-of discretion at all. T. therefore, oppose this amendment of the Code 



CODE OF CHIMIXAL PROCEDURE (SECOND AMENDMENT) BILL. '277 

because it- goes against the very root of the principle underlying section 
109 and other preventive sections of the Criminal Procedure Code. They 
are not sections which denl with substantive offences but they deal with 
extraordinary safeguards -against injury to the person and property of 
individuals. These are cases where measures are taken against persons not 
in the form of punishment but cases where they are dealt with 
under measures of extreme precaution in the interests of the public so that 
they may not commit mischief against the public at large. For these 
reasons, Sir, I oppose the Bill. 

THE HONOURABLE MAO SAHIB DR. U. KAMA HAO (Madras : Non-Muham- 
madun) : Sir, not being a lawyer myself, I do not wish to say anything 
which will involve the expounding of legal quibbles and legal technicalities 
and 1 have therefore decided to leave them to hair-splitting lawyer friends 
in this Council, hut, 1 think, I would be failing m my duty if on the 
present" occasion I should record my silent vote aud not enter my emphatic 
protest against what I consider to be a dangerous and iniquitous piece of 
legislation. This Bill raises u plain issue. Are you or are you not prepared 
to arm the Magistracy with discretionary power to award simple or rigorous 
imprisonment in security proceedings taken under section 109? This 
section is, under normal conditions, intended to haul up a habitual criminal 
who lias not been caught red-handed in the act of thieving or committing 
any other offence but who, for the purpose of committing an off unco, is 
taking the necessary precautions to conceal his presence or who is looking 
jiboufc with no ostensible means of subsistence or cannot give a satisfactory 
account of himself. Such a person is asked to furnish security for good 
bc-liuviour under this suction, and if ho fails to do so, is punished with 
simple imprisonment only under the recently amended section 123 (b). The 
complaint now is that- simple imprisonment has no deterrent effect on these 
habitual criminals who lordly while away their time in jfiils refusing to do 
:iuy work and arc therefore a burden to the State, and the law should there- 
fore be amended giving Magistrates discretionary power to award hard 
labour in such cu^cs. A Bill was introduced in September last in the 
Legislative Assembly making the necessary amendments but was thrown 
out then on cogent grounds. The Honourable the Home Member rcintro- 
duced this Bill in the. Assembly a, few days ago and in doing so made n 
curious statement which I consider to be an Insult to this House and which 
I do not liko to pass unnoticed. He said : 

"I would not lightly imito anotlipr re-buff in tin's House. Tt was open to me 
to take the "Hill to another place, to endeavour to secure (marJf the*? ironfo, /j/ertfi) 
the re-insertion of this clause- and bring it back here again. 1 did not wish to do 
that out of rpbpoct for this House. 1 ' 

Is it not Jin implication, Sir, that this House is ever ready to play to the 
tune and do anything to Ilie dictation of the Honourable the Home Mi-mber? 
Let us at li i nst wipe out that impression from his mind by throwing out this 
Bill this time. According to the Bill, Sir, any person who has no ostensible 
means of subsistence or cannot give a satisfactory account of himself can 
bo booked and sentenced to hard labour, if ho fails to find security. If it 
is expressly mentioned that this section applies only to a habitual criminal, 
then there can possibly be no objection to this Bill. But, as it stands, 
this section has a very wide range of application extending its scope from a 
habitual criminal to an innocent pauper, a true patriot and an honest 
politician. Anybody can come under the clutches of this liw and be 



278 CJOI:NCII. OF STATK. 

[Dr. U. Rama Rao. | 

awarded rigorous imprisonment if the 1'olicu and the Magistrate are so- 
minded, This section gives into the hands of the Police and the Magistracy 
;i very dangerous weapon to suppress not merely crime but the shame ol 
poverty and unemployment, to suppress political agitation and demand for 
national freedom, in fact, anything that comes in the way of the Govern- 
ment and is repugnant to the Government. There has been a gross abuse 
and misuse of this section by the Magistrates in the past by their applying 
it to political offenders, which the Government has never denied nor taken 
any slops 1o prevent. No guarantee is held out to prevent its recurrence 
in the future-. As long as the executive and judicial functions are combined 
in one, so long will this abuse of power continue. The Legislature is asked 
1o give ;i rarlc-blnnchc 1o the Executive to deal with the people in any 
arbitrary manner they like under this section. I hope our appeal will not 
be in vain and this House will consider the question calmly and without 
any bins or prejudice and reject this Bill in the interests of the people fit- 
large. 

TIIK Hoxoi-KAiiLK PANDIT SHYAii J3JLHA1U A1I8UA (l.'nited Provinces: 
Nominated Ollicial) : Sir, L rise to support the Hill, ihe consideration of 
which luis sj) ably hern moved by the Honourable Air. Ocrar. 1 had 
l.hniiyrhl, Sir, that this Hill \v:is not a controversial measure. It should not 
have lii-en Ireateil us :i controversial measure. As a matter of fact, those 1 
who have experience <<f criminal administration of the country know thai 
it is only the wurst criminals who arc usually dealt with under sections KM 
and 110 of Ihe ('nuu'rial Procedure. Code, f have, Sir, personal experience 
of more than a quarter of a century of administration of criminal justice, in 
Iho country. Unfortunately, T was only a. Magistrate, but I think I can 
conscientiously say that never in my experience, of 25 years was my judicial 
discretion interfered with by any District Magistrate. A reference to this 
point has been made by one of the previous speakers. Well, Sir, T can 
confess that there fire Magistrates whoso decisions and actions are some- 
limes interfered with by District Magistrates. But I must say that tho^e 
subordinate Magistrates themselves are largely responsible for this state 
of affairs. We cannot be justified in believing and assuming that District 
Magistrates arc always wrong and subordinate Magistrates are always right. 
T know 1 must confess with shame of instances where some subordinate 
Magistrates sought the help of District" Magistrates for the sake of their own 
convenience, perhaps unworthy convenience. I must repeat that they 
wanted to seek the advice, of District Magistrates for their own motives and 
it- is such Magistrates whose discretion and action are, sometimes interfered 
with by the. District Magistrates. But T musb add that no District Magis- 
trate has ever been known to me to interfere with the discretion or action 
'tf an honest and intelligent subordinate Magistrate. This is my reply to 
the insinuation of my Honourable friends. 

Then, Sir, it has been suggested that this section 109, Criminal Procedure 
Code, is liable to abuse and that therefore the discretion of awarding simple 
or rigorous imprisonment should not be given to Magistrates. May I ask, 
Sir, if anv other section is not liable to abuse? Even the best thing in the 
world is liable to abuse, but we deal with the rule and not with the excep- 
tions. The rule is that we must provide and legislate for what is usually done, 
and not. for what may happen by an abuse of something. I do not* know. 



CODE OF CRIMINAL I'KOCEDL'IIK (SECOND AMENDMENT) BILL. 279 

but there might have been instances of an abuse of this section. There 
might have been instances of an abuse of any other section of the Indian 
Penal Code. 

THE HONOURABLE 11 AO SAHIB DK. U. KAMA It AC): What abmil the 
Nagpur flag case ? 

THE HONOURABLE PANDIT SHl'AM BIHALii M1SRA: L do not say thai 
there is 110 possibility of abuse. 1 do not know about the Nagpur case. It 
is said that some Nagpur flag fcatyagrahis were dealt with under section 101). 
They might -perhaps have been rightly dealt with under that section, or the 
section might have been abused. 1 have already admitted that every sec- 
tion is liable to abuse. But shall we scrap the Indian Penal (Vdo heruuse 
every section of it is liable to abuse? If so, then let us repeal the whole of 
the Indian Penal Code. "Because a man might he wrongfully hanged, is 
it right, that therefore section 302 should go? Then there uoulcl be no end 
to murders. My experience- is that pas nrilnnnica is more due to tlio 
cliftc.riininnio exercise of the discretion of M:igistr;ites under sections 100 and 
110, Criminal Procedure Code, rather than to nil the pennl laws of the land 
put together. Thftt is ioy firm conviction. Pa.r llriinnmcd is reiilly based 
on sections 109 and 110, provided they are properly worked. Any sections 
mi^hl he abused, but 1 think that such cases are rare. In my experience, 
I do not re-mem her that, any abuses of section 100 ever took place in my court. 
Section 1IO has been ul times abused, but- I do not, remember section 100 
bring abused. I admit iL is liable 1 to be abused, 'ml ;i salutary section can- 
not EO because it js liable to be abused. 

Mr. liuiniuicis Pant u hi has put Jnrward three objections. One i^ that 
prevention should not ho punitive. T admit that and I do not think that 
t ever was the 1 object of the Legislature to provide 1 that prevention should 
bo punitive. But how :uv we. to deal with continued criminals? Il, is 
a question of discretion. T do not say the Magistrates must :il\va\p give? 
rigorous imprisonment to a man unable to furnish security. We must 
give, discretion to the Magistrates. I think, Sir, that Mr. 33ipin Chandra 
Pal, if f remember aright, said in the lower House, when somebody 
remarked thai ho had boon to jail, that he was in jail when jail was 
really si jail and not Ji father-in-law's house. If you give simple! imprison- 
ment to a hardened criminal, it means sending him to his father-in-law's 
house to be tlio Bluest of His Majesty at the expense of the ratepayer. 
The honest man has to subscribe towards his maintenance, while he lives 
in jail) a life of peace and perhaps luxury. That cannot be the intention 
of any Legislature. We must deal with each case on its merits, anel this 
i why discretion is being asked to be restored. If there is a hardened 
criminal, and ho is found to be sitting behind my house at rn id -night 
with instruments of housebreaking in his possession he has not begun 
his housebreaking operations and if he runs away when seen anel is 
captured anel produced under section 109 before a court,, shall we say: 
1 You were going to commit housebreaking, but nevertheless you can 
comfortably be lodged in your father-in-law's house "? No, this would 
be preposterous; therefore to refuse restoration of discretion to Magistrates 
in such cases is to my mind absolutely wrong. 

Then Mr. Ramadas Pantulu also pointed out that some persons who 
could be proceeded ngainst under section 110 were wrongly proceeded 
against under section 109. It is n surprising suggestion and a surprising 

B 2 



"&0 COIJXCLI- OK STATK. [23llD FEB. 1926. 

[Pandit bhyaiu Bihari Misru.J 

argument, Section 110, as Honourable Members are aware, provides for 
imprisonment 011 failure to give security, either rigorous or simple, for 
three years, whereas section 100, so far as 1 remember (I have not been 
dealing \\ith these suctions for three or four years), provides for imprison- 
ment lor only one year; so why should section 109 be substituted' for 
section 110? My friend Mr. Ghari has pointed out that this section is 
substituted for section 110, because in case of a person dealt with under 
section 110, some time must be allowed to elapse to give him a chance 
of: reforming himself, before he can again be proceeded against under that 
very section, and that therefore such persons are wrongly proceeded 
against under section 109. This is ti very ingenious suggestion, but to 
me with all my criminal court experience it looks rather funny. Section 
109 can hardly be substituted for section 110. Section 109 is really used 
against criminals when they arc actually caught under very suspicious 
circumstances, and at least I think 1 can be justified in hoping that 1 shall 
bu credited with bona fides when 1 tell you that my experience has never 
shown that section 109 has been abused. I never knew this to happen 
iii the 25 years of my experience. 

Then the third objection of the Honourable Mr. Eamadas Pnntulu 
was that no case has been made out for restoration of this discretion which 
was rejected by the Assembly in 1925. The Honourable the Homo Mem- 
ber's speech in tho other House should convince all who are open to 
conviction that a very gO(X.l and strong case had been made out, and aU 
the opinions of the Local (lovemments and High Courts and jail authorities 
go to show that this discretion should be restored. I really do not see 
why it should not bu restored. AH cases must be dealt with on their 
merits. Nobody can way that all persons dealt with under section 109 
art good people and thai none of them must be given rigorous imprison- 
ment when they have failed to furnish security. If the merits of the 
case demand it, why should this discretion be refused to Magistrates? To 
say that Sessions Judges are unwilling to interfere with tho discretionary 
powers of Magistrates is quite wrong. Sessions Judges always interfere 
when they think it necessary, and I think it would be an absolutely 
salutary provision. I think under such conditions the fear of abuse is 
very, very remote. 1 support tiic Bill. 

TUB HoNoriiAP.i.K MAITLVI ABDUL KABIM (East Bengal: Muham- 
injulan): Sir. 1 had a mind to undergo my ordinary period of apprentice- 
ship like a good old boy, but just now nftcr hearing what has fallen from 
some of tlie Honourable Members of this House on a subject in which 
I have dabbled 1'or 25 yoars of my life exclusively ns a criminal practitioner, 
[ think T would be doing an injustice to myself nnd also to the Honourable 
Members of this House if T did not place sit their service a Jitt-le bit of 
personal experience find knowledge which T have acquired in connection 
with I he, operation of sections 110 nnd K)9. 

Sir, T rise to support the motion of the Honourable Mr. Crerar, not 
only heartily but most whole-heartedly, and T will endeavour as best I 
can to supplement the arguments that have been advanced in this House 
by the Honourable Mr. Crerar, and also by tho Honourable Sir Alexander 
Muddim.in in the debate on this question in the other House. Sir, I 
ccme from a province or a part of a province which has given birth to 
political thoughts as they nre now widely understood and expressed, I 



CODE OF CRIMINAL rUOCEPUUIi (SECOND AMENDMENT) J'.ll-L. 28 1 

mean I come from Eastern Bengal, and as I ho Honourable Members of 
ihiH House are fujly aware 1 , cireumstanees connected with the. partition 
of Bengal and its subsequent modification arc circumstances which have 
widened the Indian political outlook and have given not a little 1 rouble 
to those who have had to administer the law in this country, tfir, I 
fin not dogmatically assert things because I have dabbled in this law for 
25 years of my life, nor do 1 prefer to look at the question jneroly from 
an academician's point, of view. I will place my own personal experience 
of this matter before the Council. The present political situation has 
arisen after 190,'). The law of 1898 that is going to be restored by 
the present- enactment provided for simple or rigorous imprisonment accord- 
ing to I he discretion of the Magistrate. Xow, Sir, as the Honourable 
"Members of ihis House, have already learnt from tin* Honourable. Mr. 
Crerar, and as they thorn selves already know, in 1023 thai law was 
modified, taking away the discretionary power o the Magistrate. In the, 
\rar 11)20 thnt power is goinj; to bf 1 restored. Tn tin 1 debate in tin 1 other 
House I bog to submit, thnt as a viillcr of fact legal opinion veoivd round 
under the 1 S'linnwhai politicnl!\ j-.tn'osplipric pressure and vha. w:is 
enunciated Ihere doc-; not exactly commend itself to those who have 
studied tin. 1 law very can 1 fully. T \\ill not. go ovor if-, again in this House 
her an HP 1" am sun 1 tin 1 Honourable Mr. Crerar has been aljli 1 to make a full 
presentment nf the (loNenunentV; i-asi 1 on this snl.jiH-t. 1 will only just. 
K-fcr to one point. It is said that discretion to the Magistrates in Uici 
mull IT of ordering eil her simple or ri^nroMs iiiiprisonment. in HIP er.se of 
failure to give security under both provision -5 (a) and (b) of section. 100 
should not. be ftivin because, as the principal argument advanced llu-rofor 
has it, thai sort of discretion is sometimes abused. My submission to 
the Members of tin's JTuiiourahle House is that, because discrcl.iou may 
be abused tninetimpa, that, is no reason why discretion should not. bc i . 
given ab all. All .laws that, are progressive in their nature must have 
the merit of elasticity. Without that, then.- can he no advance worth 
the. iiMirip. No\v, Sir, thn question, is whether the law as it stands givc.s. 
Kiiflicieiit Kfopc and opportunity to Ihe Magistrate to exercise th:it discre- 
tion properly or not in appropriate fuses. The, whole question may bo 
looked at from that point of view. My submission I'R that there may bo 
CUSPS, and there hnvp been cases to my knowledge, in vhich simple 
imprison Trent under section 109 would not meet the ends of justice. T 
will pl'ace onp such P;IRP. for consideration lipfnre this House which- lias 
come to my personal knowledge. A man comes as a forerunner I fall 
him a forerunner bpeause hp comps first to help in the. pcrpol ration of a 
dapoity. That fon i nmnpr comes forward in tho guisp of a -- Sannayasi ". 
I" rofcr to " Sannayasi " horniiRo his caso was mentionpd in the other 
House as a c.asp in which the Magistrate, might wrongly pxcrciso his 
discretion to punish n nannay/ifi and sentpncc 1 him to rigorous imprison- 
ment. Now suppose that man who comes in the guisp of n xannauasi 
to my house, makes a plan of my housp showing therein thp approaches 
nnd the ins and thp outs of my house with the intention of going back 
fo his confederates at some centre of the conspiracy from which hp is nn 
emissary taking all the material particulars necessary to enable the dacoits 
to come and raid my house afterwards. Now, Sir, this man is arrested 
by the police and he is actually found with a notebook in his pockpf, which 
shows the plan of my house, the house of n rich millionaire. HP does 
not give a satisfactory account of himself; he does not likp to disclose 
the names of the persons who have sent him out. " What in your nwme!" 



28:2 COUNCIL OP STATE. [23RD FEB. 192G. 

[Maulvi Abdul Karim.] 

ho is asked and lie docs not give a satisfactory reply to that. He is not 
a photographer or tin artist by profession and the Magistrate has absolutely 
every reason to think he must bo a criminal forerunner of that kind I 
do not say political. Now, Sir, is the present law sufficient to meet a 
case of that kind? That wcLioii of this JloubO who are lawyers know, 
as a nialtcr' of fuel, Unit there are certain singes of a. crime which arc 
not touched by the Hiihstuiiti\c criminal Jaw. t canuut say this man 
had been preparing *o coiimiil is dacoity. 1 csannoL say that he is there 
with the object, til' committing dacuitx, although lit 1 , is there \\illi the 
ubjuit of furnishing suc.h valuable inform a lion lo the persons who have 
conceived the id-a of committing the dsicoity. With regard lo thut man 
I cannot Kay In. 1 is preparing to commit a dacsoity or concealing himself 
wilh the object of committing an offence. T uimnul bring him under 
clause (a), section 101). T ciumoli haul him up under tho Indian Penal 
C'odi? because it. is flu- prr-paralm 1 ;- sla^o of only one crime, tliafc is taken 
account of by the Indian IVnai Code, f cannot say T can bind him down 
under the Cinninal IVon'duri 1 (.'ode, section 110, because h. is not u 
liabitii'-il offender. Section 110 will not touch him, nor ulaiiKP (/) of 
that section which is intended only for tlumis persons who aro danerous 
01 of dospi-rali 1 character. Xov,-, Hii 1 , is this man lo go scot free? I 
eannnl bring hii-i under any nt I he cfjiispir.icy sections whJch have latch 
IJLM n i uacti-,1 to meet the Isii'X 1 '! 1 reiiiiircinenls of the country, due, to the 
larg'-r political movement* of the day, becauno ho refuses to cliKclose the 
iiiiim ! of his ."ssoeijites or priiifipnls. Unless there :ire at least, two persons, 
1 c.rnniol Kfi//, that lie K a p,-irly to the conspiracy. Now, Sir, certainly 
a os" of that- kind is inU-iuled to be covered by section 109 (h). If he 
were in be given simpl" in'priHnnnient under Mio luw as it was remodelled 
or recast in 10:J:">, the i, ai: \\iuld l-i sent to jail and live, as an Tfonour- 
able Member on the otln-". 1 side said, lilv<- a son-in-law in the Government 
JTouse. \Vonld not the ciicumslances of n cas' like this behove the 
Magistrate in inflicting upim the man, on his failure to givo security, no 
other punrshnient than that of rigorous imprisonment 1 . 1 My submission 
before the House is thi L i (hat such cases hnve actually come bnfore me 
and T have conducted a number of eases in which the accused were 
actually found in possession of sue.h notebooks showing the plans of the 
houses of well-to-do and respectable people. As :i mutter of fact it was 
this thai opened the eyes of the. Government, and my submission is that 
it- was in the jight. of these recent experiences now coming to the notice 
of the froyenunont that the Government in their wisdom thought of 
bringing up a Bill like this and restoring the old power to the Magistrate. 
Tt is in view of these considerations and other considerations with which 
T will not tire the, House now that I not only strongly but whole-heartedly 
support the motion brought forward by the' TTonourable Mr. Crerar, that 
this Bill ns passed by the Legislative Assembly, though with some 
difference of opinion, be passed here also. 

THK HONOURAIIT.K MR. J. ORE RAH (Home Secretary) : Sir, the speeches 
made by mv two immediate predecessors relieve me to a very larp p e extent 
from replvinj? to the objections which hnve been raised to this Bill, nnd 
in particular T nm obliged to mv Honournble friend Mnulvi Abdul Karim 
for an able and comprehensive speech, his first speech in this Council, which 
eives us everv prospect of important contributions from him to our debates 
in the future. 



CODK 01-' CKIAIIXAJ, IMjnCKJM'UE (SKCOXD AMENDMENT) 131 l.L. 2S5 

I was very much gratified, Sir, to have from the Honourable and 
learned gentleman from Madras nu assurance, that when Government move 
measures in this House relating to questions of law and order it is always 
his strong instinct and desire, as far as in him lies, to support any legiti- 
mate appeal made by Government for any reasonable proposition in the 
matter of powers to "maintain law and order. My gratification was how- 
ever on reflection slightly qualified when I recalled that I had heard preli- 
g minaries of that character several times from my IlonoXirnble and learned 
'friend and that he invariably followed it up by some measure, usually n 
very strong measure, of opposition to the particular provision of that 
nature with which T myself happened to be concerned. I was also particu- 
larly struck by the. fact thai the Honourable and learned Member appeared 
to express some preference 1 for measures of a preventive rather than a 
punitive character. Nevertheless it has usually been on occasions when it 
has been my duty to lay before tho House measimx of a preventive or 
precautionary character that f linve found more particularly my differences 
of opinion with my Honourable and learned friend to be fundamental. 

Sir, he said he. had three special grounds of objection to this Bill. The 
first was that the section was mienrk'd to be preventive and not punitive, 
and he was therefore indined to think (he measure we proposed to be in 
the direction of being punitive, rather than preventive. Well, in the first 
place, I should point ouu llv.t an objection of that character would equally 
apply to any action taken under section 110 though T think the common 
consent of persons conversant- both \vilh the J:iw and with the practical 
application of (he luw, both in this House and elsewhere, has been that 
in the case ;! any rate of section 110 it would be. absurd to deprive the 
Magistrate, of a discretion to order rigorous imprisonment. In so far as 
that argument, rests upon the undoubted fnr-t, which T fully admit, that 
these provisions are, primarily of a preventive and not a punitive character, 
the objection ought to go further and induce mv Honourable and learned 
friend to adopt the same. proposition in regard to section 110, which T 
venture to suggest would not be supported by anyone who has a knowledge 
of tho law or any considerable experience of its application in practice. 

He then put forward his second objection which related to the discre- 
tion of the Magistrate and an Honourable Member who spoke on this side 
of the House urged the same point, apparently suggesting tho view that 
you are not only not to give a Magistrate a discretion but you are to remove 
from him all power in nny circumstances whatsoever of committing an 
indiscretion. Well, Sir, all T can say is if you attempt to legislate on those 
lines, and if you fail to find an undeviat'mg succession of archangels to fill 
vour magisterial and judicial chairs, you will never succeed in putting 
into form any form of penal legislation whatsoever. 

THE HONOURABLE MR. T. C. DESIKA CHART: I am sorry the Honour- 
able the Home Secretary did not understand me. I merely said section 109 
ought not to be so worked as to make an honest person come within the 
clutches of the law and punished under the amended section and it mnsf 
'be mode clear that particular provisions aro not intended to he. applied 
.to narticular persons. That is all that I said. 

THE HONOURABLE MR. ,T. CRERAR: T am afraid I am not much more 
'illuminated with regard to tho Honourable Mr. Chari's objection now thnn 
T was before. But my reference was to the point relating to the discre- 
tion of the Magistrate, and tho objection to which T particularly wish to 



COUMCII. OF STATE. [23RD FEB. 1926 

[Mr. J. Crerar.] 

reply is not that of the Honourable Mr. Chari (\\iiich I confess I do not 
understand) but that raised by my Honourable and learned friend from 
Madras. The Honourable and learned gentleman from Madras took this 
point in particular, that inasmuch as judicial and executive powers had 
not be-on completely separated there was a very grave fear that the discre- 
tion imposed on Magistrates in regard to this particular section would be 
abused. Well, I should like to make two points in reply to that. The 
first is that ex hyjiolhcsi we arc both agreed on this that this particular 
measure is preventive; it is not punitive. That is to say, we are not 
concerned with the formal conviction of an accused person of an offence, 
nor with the sentence whifh is duly to be passed upon him. Those arc 
judicial functions. Wo siro concerned with preventive measures; and 1 
maintain preventive measures fire essentially executive measures and must 
be in the lumrls of persons who have executive, authority. My second" 
point is this. If it is necessary to appeal to any well-known analogy, that 
is to sn>, if we nre to refer to the. source of irmsf- of our conceptions of 
criminal law in India, which is tho English Inw, 1 would remind my 
Honourable and Ir.-iriind friend what the state of the English law in tho 
matter is. 'Hie English Vagrancy Act enables an ille and disorderly 
person, thai is to say, a jvrson who hns once infringed section 3 of th.it 
Aci. to be at onr.o seni, to prison with hard labour for one month, nnd no 
security. Tf he dimes once more within the danger of that Act he is 
liable 1 . MS a r (> gut> and vagabond forthwith to he sent, to prison for six 
months' hard labour, find no s^curilv. Tf he comes under the Act for 
the third time he. then becomes :m incorrigible. rogue? mid is liable to 10 
months' hard labour; he is also liablo to whipping nnd no security again. 
Moreover, those orders are to bo passed not bv a beuc-h of persons who 
exercise solelv judicial power but bv the. Justices of tho Peace, who, as 
TFonournble Member** are very well aware, though the matter is not 
always fully recognised, arc in somn of tho most important aspects of 
their functions undoubtedly executive funetionnrios. Indeed until quito 
rnceut- times the most important local executive functionaries in tho TTnited 
Kingdom woiv tli^ .Justices of tho Pence; and it is to thorn that tho opera- 
tion of the analogous nnd ns Ihp TTouse will see much more severe laws 
relating to vagrancy nnd bad livelihood is entrusted. 

Tho third objection raised by my Honourable and learned friend wa& 
this. He inquired what has happened since September 1025, to justify 
Government in bringing this measure into this Houso. I will only say 
this, Sir, that if wiser counsels had prevailed olsewhero in September 1925, 
this measure would have been long ago before this House and wh.it has 
occurred since lOSS, rognrding which my Honourable find learned friend 
desired to be informed is the gratifying fact that Honourable Members in 
another place have changed their mind, and changed ifc for the better. 
Those, Sir, are the three main points raised by the Honourable gentleman 
and by those who spoke after him, and I hope and trust that I have met 
them to the satisfaction of the House. 



TIIK HONOURABLE THE PRESIDENT: The question is 

"That the Bill further to ai 
lain purpose, as passed by the 

The motion was adopted. 



" That the Bill further to amend the Code of Criminal Procedure, 1898, for 
certain purpose, as passed by the Legislative- Assembly, be passed," 



MADRAS CIVIL COURTS (AMENDMENT) BILL. 

TIIK HONOURABLE MR. S. E. DAS : Sir, I move that the Bill further 
to amend the Madras Civil Courts Act, 1873, as passed by the Legisla- 
tive Assembly, be taken into consideration. 

This, Sir, is another small Bill to give effect to one of the recom- 
mendations of the Civil Justice Committee. I will explain shortly the 
object of this Bill. Under the Indian Succession Act, outside the High 
Courts, it is only tho District Judges who can take cognizance of proceed- 
ings under that Act. Practically all the provinces other than Madras 
have by their local Civil Courts Acts empowered the High Courts to 
authorize subordinate courts as also the District Judges to enable sub- 
ordinate courts to take cognizance oC proceedings under tho Indian 
Succession Act. The Civil Justice? Committee recommended that that 
power should also bo Liven to the Madras High Court find to the District 
Judges under the. Madras Jligh (lourt and this Bill simply proposes to 
givu effect to that recommendation. 

Tho motion was adopted. 

Tin: HOXOTTRAIU.K TUB PRESIDENT: The question is: 

11 That clause 2 stand part of tho Bill." 

Tin-: Tfo\oL'i!.\nLrj MR. S. 11. DAS: Sir, 1 move as an amendment: 

" Th:it in H.-iiiKi' 2 in tlic ni-w i.rrlion 29 propni.td to IK iiinorlccl in the Madras, 
Civil Coin-Is Acl, 1873 : 

(ti) tlu viurds ' in 1 District Mini si f ' wherever they occur, and 
(b) this proviso to (.ho propose 1 *] sub-section (3) 
be omitted. 11 

The matter arises in thi ; way. The 75111 as originally drafted and pasH3-l 
by the Legislative Assembly empowers tho High Court as also Uio 
District Judge to authorise all District MunsiEs as also Subordinate 
Judges to lake? cogni/ane.e oT these proceedings. The proviso to sub- 
section (3) enacts that an appeal from an order of a District Munsif in. 
any such proceedings shall lie to the District Judge. A question was 
raised during Ihe debate in the Assembly a to whether under tho present 
law an appeal would lie from tho order of the District Jud^e on appeal 
from the. District M'unsif to the High Court, and It was pointed out that 
it would not be right that there should bo no appeal to the Higli Court 
in some of these contentious proceedings which might bo taken by the* 
District Munsi'f. At that time, my Honourable. colleague, the Home 
Member, gave, an undertaking that ho would look into the matter. It 
now appears that therp would be no appeal to the High Court from <in 
order of the District Judge passed on appeal from the District Munsif. 
Under those circumstances, we. have thought that the best course would 
be to take away the power of the High Court to authorise District Munsif s 
to hear these proceedings and restrict that power only so far as subordi- 
nate Judges are concerned. With that view T have to move the amend- 
ment that the words "or District Munsif" wherever they occur and. 1 
the proviso to the proposed sub-section (3) Be omitted. 

THE 'HONOURABLE THE PRESIDENT : The original question was : : 

. " That clause 2 stand part of the Bill." 

( 285 ) 



"286 COUNCIL OF STATE. [23RD FfiB. 1926. 

[The President.] 

Since which an amendment has been moved: 

V That in clause 2 in the new section 29 proposed to be inserted in the Madras 
Civil Courts Act, 1873 : 

(a) the words ' or District Murisif ' \\hcrevcr they occur, and 
(If) the proviso to the proposed sub-section (3) 
be- omitted. ' ' 

The question T have to put is tluit that amendment be made. 
The; motion was adopted. 

Clause 2, MS amended, and clause 1 were added to the Bill. 
The Titlu and Preamble wore added to the Bill. 

THE HOXOUHAJILK Mil. S. II. DAS: L move, Sir, that the Bill, ,\s 
passed by the Legislative Assembly and as amended by the Council of 
Stale, bi; passed. 

Tlie mo I ion. was adopted. 



RESOLUTION //<; GRANT OT SUPPLEMENTARY ASSISTANCE TO 
THE TIX-PLATE INDUSTRY. 

TITK HUXOUHABLK Mil. D. T. (.'HAinVJCK (Commerce Secretary): Sir, 
I beg to move : 

" Tlnit tliis CwinH! r: commends to tin* (Sovemnr Gcnoral in Cuuncil that no action 
bo taken on Chapters IV nnd V of the J?cport of the Indian Tariff Board regarding 
tho tfr;mt of snpploinoTiliiry protection to the steel (industry, except that supplementary 
assistance should be ^ivcn tu the tin-plate industry in India, (a) by increasing from 
R?,. 60 to Us. 85 per ton tho specific protective duty on all .steel tin-plales and tinned 
sheets, including tin tiitfirer.s, and (b) by reducing the duty on tin, block, from 15 per 
c-cTit. ad rn/orrui to a specific duty of Us. 250 .1 ton." 

Witli this Resolution I bring before the Council tho remaining portions 
of the third report of tho Tariff Board on Steel. Last September the old 
Council disposed of their recommendations on rolled steel. This morning 
we have, disposed of their recommendation in regard to wagons and now there 
remain only two Chapters to bo dealt with, one on fabricated steel and 
the other on tin-plates. My Resolution covers those two Chapters The 
Council will see from the terms of my Resolution that Government pro- 
pose to take no action whatever in regard to fabricated stool. To that 
extent perhaps it might not have been necessary to bring it to Hie notice 
of the Council but we think it advisable for the Council to have a cliance 
of discussing these recommendations of Ihe Tariff Board even when the 
Government do not accept them. I am also very anxious that the Council 
will endorse the interpretation that the. Government place upon one ot 
the important sections in the Steel Industry (Protection) Act. The 
engineering industry in India applied under section 3 (4) of J he Indian 
Tariff Act for additional protection on the ground that there had been 
such a change in prices as to render the protection afforded by that Act 
ineffective. The Tariff Board thereupon made fheir inquiries and, as we 
all know, they found that prices had fallen considerably. Their original 
recommendation for the engineering industry was to raise the duty from 
10 per cent, ad valorem to 25 per cent, ad valorem. I think it will be 
clear to the House that an ad valorem rate, when prices are falling:, means 
.an actually smaller number of rupees. On the whole, therefore, the 



'GRANT OF SUPPLEMENTARY ASSISTANCE TO TIN-PLATE 1XDUSTUY. fc>i 

Tariff .Board found that iu order to restore the figures which they calculat- 
ed in 1 C J24, an additional protection of 7i per cent, would be required. 
The Government do not challenge those calculations or those figures i-i 
uny way. If it be held that the moaning of those words which 1 have 
read out from Hection 3 (4) of the ytcel Industry (Protection) Act id, in 
effect, that when prices fluctuate additional protection must be imposed 
from time to lime in order to restore the exact measure of protection 
contemplated at the time of the original inquiry, then the finding of the 
Tariff Hoard is perfectly logical and perfectly correct. .But, Sir, 1 have 
said whe.n speaking O n Iheso questions of protection before, that it is IIDI 
a portion of the policy of protection 1o guarantee. 1 prices. Trices must 
fluctuate arid it is be.)uiid the wit of any Government to be repeatedly 
altering tariff duties in order to chase prices cither up or du\Mi. It is als-> 
most undesirable from the point of view of trade r-nd coin merer to bo pu:-- 
petiuilly altering our customs duties, tmd in a, policy of |)rotoctiou thi 1 -. 
idea of guarantee of a iixnl mrnsuro of protection is not necessarily in- 
hcrtnt. The Honourable the. Commerce Member in another place, when 
speaking on this very Hill in J9i>J, explained Lliat in his opinion th.it 
section only ought to be. used un rare occasions, when the need is very 
real mul nlso very urgent. That is the proper way in which this section 
outfit to be used, not ;>s a \U!:ipmi for adjust ing rates by inathematic-il 
rale-illations, l)ut for rea-jons .f urgent or unforeseen imergency. The 
<|ov. niment therefore, examined this pinposal tu give? additional prot?c- 
tifj.i tr> the stee.l industry from thai point of view, and :ii once one notices 
thai \ve are really dealing' not with a new industry but with one. which 
has hneii going on for the best ;)ari of a hundred years. It has had its 
ups :md downs, :md li.is been through a period of depression before.. At 
flu 1 present moment it is not- suffering from the flood of imports, but if 
it is suffering it is suffering from general depression in trade. Imports 
have not, boen phenomenally large during the last twelve months, and 
lastly the Trriff iBoanl itself have, reported that these firms said in evi- 
dence that, although orders were difficult to obtain the difficulties were 
not. sr> great ;1H they 'had been before the Steel Industry (Protection) \ct 
AV.IS passed. Tn view of those circumstance** it seems to Government thit 
nn emergent need lins not arisen in regard to the fabricated steel industry, 
especially when it is remembered that that Act has only one more 
year to go. F hope the Council will endorse that interpretation because 
it will bo a. most, unsettling tiling for the trarlo and commerce of thi.-* 
country if it is given out that the Government and the Legislature, are 
prepared to vary their customs duties so as to inecf. any fluctuation In 
prices. Tt would also have, T think, ,a vory enervating effect on those 
who were receiving protection if thoy thought that when prices fall some- 
what they could como to the Legislature and have the difference made up 
to them. So much for fabricated steel. 

I now turn to the other Chapter, namely, the tin-plate industry. Tho 
Government consider that the. circumstances are somewhat different here. 
Tho Council will rcmombpr thnt in that case the Tariff Board originally 
raised the duty from 10 to Iff per cent., not from 10 to 25 per cent. They 
certainly rnadt tho duty specific which has been a great advantage to the 
tin-plate industry, but yet the increase given was compared with others 
small. Thev hnve made cnlculntions similar to those thev made in regard 
'to tho fabricated steel industry : and conclude, that there, is a gap required 
of Bs. 88 A ton in order to restore the measure of protection for tin-plate 



258 Coi-XCIL OF STATE. [/ 23RD 

[Air. D. T. Chad wick.] 

that they had tuiliciputed two years ago. They recommend that this gap- 
should be made good. They, however, do not suggest that they should 
put the whole of the HH. 38 as additional duty on tin-plate, but only 
-Hs. 29 as additional duty and make up the remaining Us. 9 by remitting- 
the duty which the company have to pay on the block tin imported "for 
galvanising, [n this case the Council K "\leMlin-j with ::ii absolutely new 
industry, not with one that has been here a hundred years. The industry 
has started well 1 am bound to say. The industry lias made very great 
technical advance in its first three years. It has reached very nearly its- 
i'nll maximum output of 022 thousand boxes a year and is using some 
A~> thousand tons of stc-e.l \\ year. Technically it has done well, also as 
a new industry it si amis in a different category from the fabricated steel 
industry. I have already &aid that in regard to this section 3 (4) of the 
Aci, we. ought not to use. it to make up mathematical differences but only 
to use it when tho need is urgent and real and then only to the minimum 
extent. It is porfi-e.lly cle.-ir from what the Tariff Board has reported tn.it 
although the industry has made, this technical progress, prices and condi- 
tions havn ehaiigi-d KO much that it is by no means meeting even its work 
costs at the present, day. Therefore, the Government propose that tho 
amount, of additional benefit which should bo pivcn io this company should 
be. restricted to just covering and mi-ct'iiij f hn vnrks eot, that means 
additional lionolit of T?s. 29 a ton. Thn Government also do not like the* 
idea of making a remission of duly to only one company as would be the, 
onsn by remitting only Io tins company the duty on tin block. Tl woulS' 
be. fair to recluei* it for every body who uses that article and consequently 
the proposal 1 plaee before this House is, that the duty on tin be, reduced 
to Us. 250 a tnn, practically half, and the duty to be pi .iced on tin-platos 
should bo increased from "Rs. 00 to Rs. 85 a ton. The revenues which 
we should got from the additional duty on tin-plates will balancn tho losa. 
incurred by reducing the duty on block tin; therefore, as far as general 
revenue is concerned, there i<* no difference. At- the same time T wish 
to point out to the House that the question of giving protection to tho 
tin-plato industry is not now in question.. That is settled up to tho t^lst 
March 1027. Tt is only n question of meeting ft present, need over the- 
next year. Next year nn inquiry will bo hold to consider whether this 
industry should or should not be protected. While the company has made 
prent technical nrlvanre. one point- arises affecting next year's inquiry, pnd 1 
that is that there hns been n good oVal of doubt in repnrd to Iho capita,! 
arrangements of this Company, which in the opinion of manv is badlvr 
arrnnrn<l pnrl probably excessive. No doubt the Company will bear that 
in mind, 

TIIK HovoriMiiLK Sm ABTHUK FROOM (Bombay Chamber of Gom- 
merce): Sir, here again tho question of protection is raised. The House 
this morning Las already heard my views on protection and tho^e are that; 
when protection is intended to foster a national industry in its infan'-y- 
I have no great fault to find with it. This llesolution moved by the 
Honourable the Commerce Secretary has my support up to a certain: 
point, in so far as it refers to the question of fabricated steel, but when* 
he gets on to the tin-plate industry, 1 urn alraid 1 must differ from him. 
This tin-plate industry is a small industry and why the Commerce Depart- 
ment should consider it worthy of protection 1 am at -a loss to understand.. 



-GRANT OF SU1-PLEMENTARY ASSISTANCE TO TIX-i'LATE ISDL'XTHY. 28^ 

except perhaps that it is a sort of offshoot of the Tata Iron arid Steel 
Industry. I have said this morning that protection always costs something 
.to the country and if you provide protection for one particular article, 
.something else has gob lo pay for it. I gathered from the Honourable 
the Commerce) (Secretary's speech that ho did not agree with me in this 
instance because he pointed out that, when he proposed to reduce duty 
on tin block, he proposed to increase the duty on imported tin-plates. 
Well, 1 am afraid I cannot agree with his mathematics. What would be 
the position if you increase the duty on an article which is being imported 
to this country? I presume it is with the idea of striking at that article 
coming into the country, and therefore the duty on that article must be 
.correspondingly less, and 1 very much doubt whether the proposal of the 
Honourable the Commerce Secretary that the increased duty obtained from 
imported steel plates will meet the amount that the country has got to 
pay. I will not detain the House very much longer; they are -aware of 
.my views on this question of protection, 1 insist that protection is expensive. 
As I said, I do not oppose protection to a great national industry, but 1 
'Challenge anybody in this House to say that this little tin-plate I very 
nearly said tinpot industry is a national industry. I do nob suppose the 
Commerce Department, in moving this Resolution, had in mind the large 
shareholders of this industry. I do not suppose the shareholders, and I 
hope they do not, interest the Commerce Department at all, but I take 
it they moved this Resolution from the point of view that this industry 
is a sort of offshoot of the Tata Iron and Steel Industry; in fact it receives 
its supplies of steel for this industry from the Tata Iron and Steel Company. 
Sir, had the Commerce Secretary been able to show that this very small, 
minute, industry was a national industry, he would hnve received my 
support. As 1 have said before, I contend that this is merely an offshoot 
of the Tata Iron and Steel Industry which is the grandparent, and there 
may bo some other grandchildren springing up. Are you going to provide 
protection for them? Once the thin end of tin- wedge is introduced there 
is no knowing where it will stop, and I 'am afraid I must oppose that portion 
of the Honourable Member's Resolution which refers to the tin-plate 
industry. 

THE HONOURABLE Mu. D. T. CHADWICK : Sir, earlier in the* clay 
when my Honourable friend spoke on thu Bill in regard to wagons, 
T heartily agreed with him. Now I join issue with him entirely. He 
has not spoken on the Resolution a single word. The matter that is 
before the Council is not tho question, as I explained, of protection to the 
tin-plate industry. That has been settled. That is settled up to March 
31st, 1027. Nor was it settled by the Commerce Department. It was 
settled by tho Legislature of the country. To-day W T O are dealing purely 
with the addition of protection that is required to meet the particular 
circumstances which have arisen. Therefore, Sir. it is not incumbent 
upon me to prove that this industry is a national industry, or is any other 
description ,>f an industry or even that it is not a. " tinpot " industry; the 
point is it is already protected. And I can assure my Honourable friend 
besides he knows it because he was here in the House at the time it 
was not protected by the Legislature because the Tata firm is one of the 
shareholders, nor because the Burma Oil Company is % shareholder . . . 

THE HONOURABLE SIR ARTHUR FROOM : I never referred to the Tata 
firm tcing one of the shareholders. 



2 ( JO COUNCIL OF STATE. [23RD FEB. 1926. 

THE HONOURABLE MR. D. T. CHADWICK: L am sorry, Sir, because I 
thought the Honourable Member would have known from the report of the 
Tariff Board that this Company has only two shareholders, one being the 
TaU Steel Company and the other the Burma Oil Company. 

THK HONOURABLE SIR ARTHUR FEOOM: Yes, the Burma Oil Com- 
pany. 

THE HONOURABLE MR. I). T. CHADWICK: I thought that knowledge 
was common property. This industry came under the general scheme of 
protection in the same way as the engineering industry, namely, that it 
used steel. It carno in for inquiry exactly in the same way as the wire 
industry. When these subsidiary industries were examined by the Tariff 
Hoard ,{jnd when their report was placed before the Legislature, the 
Legislature, including this Council, decided that it was a- worthy industry 
to protect 

THK HONOURABLE THE PRESIDENT : The question is that the following 
It (-solution be adopted: 

" Tli.it this Council r-n-oinrnonds to the Governor General in Council that no action 
IJP inkon on Chapters IV iind V of the Report of the Indian Tariff Board regarding 
HIP grunt f supplementary protection to the sleel -industry, except that supplementary 
assist mco should bo given lo the tin-plate industry in India, (a) by increasing from 
Us. 60 to Us. 85 per ton (he specific protective duty on all steel tin-plates and tinned 
shmls, including tin tubers, a nd (fc) by reducing the duty on tin, block, from 15 per 
ci-iit. (id va/orrm to a specific duty of TRs. 250 a ton." 

The motion was adopted. 



NOMINATIONS TO THE PANEL FOR THE CENTRAL ADVISOHY 
COUNCIL FOE RAILWAYS. 

THK HoxouiiAnLfi TRK 1'UESTDENT : The following Honourable Mcm- 
LiTtf have boon duly nominated for tho Panel of the Central Advisory 
( ''.umcil for Railways : 

Tho Honourable Mr. P. C. D. Chari, 

The Honourable Mr. V. Ramadas Pantulu, 

The Honourable Rai Nalininath Scibt Bahadur, 

The Honourable Rao Sahib Dr. U. Rama Rao, 

The Honourable Mr. Mahendra Prasad, 

The Honourable Mr. Mahmood Suhrawardy, 

The Honourable Sir Arthur Froom, 

The Honourable Mr. Phiroze C. Sethna, 

The Honourable Rai Bahadur Lala Ram Saran Das, 

The Honourable Mr, J. W. A. Bell, 



Tho Honourable Raja Sir Rampal Singh, 
The Honourable Mr. K. C. Roy, 
The Honourable Sir Sankaran Nair, 

As only eight mefnbers are required on the panel and thirteen have 
been nominated, an election will have to take place. As I announced the 
other day, the election will be conducted ton Thursday, the 25th of this 



CENTRAL ADVISORY COUNCIL FOR RAILWAYS. 291 

month, and it will tako place, according to the regulations laid down for 
the conduct of an election according to the principle of proportionate 
representation, by means of the single transferable vote. 

As the House is aware, to-morrow was one of the days allotted for the 
disposal of business promoted by non-official members, and the list of 
business which has already gone out contains one item of business only, n 
Kesolution to be moved by an Honourable Member from Madras. Ho 
has now given me notice that he does not intend to move that Resolution 
and there will therefore be no necessity for the House to meet to-morrow. 

THE Hoxouium.E MR. V. HAM ADAS PANTULU : I should like to 
withdraw. 

THE HONOURABLE THE PRESIDENT : Docs the Honourable Member 
wish to withdraw his nomination? 

THE HONOURABLE Mn. V. RAMADAS PANTULU: If 1 am permitted 
to do so. 

THE HONOURABLE THE PRESIDENT: The Honourable Member is in 
time 1 . 

The Couneil then adjourned till Eleven of the Clock en Thiirs-'d:iy, tho 
251 h "February, 1926. 



Copies of the Debates of the Legislative Assembly and of the 
Council of State are obtainable on sale from the Manager, Central 
Publication Branch, 8, Hastings Street, Calcutta. 



COUNCIL OF STATE 
DEBATES 

THURSDAY, 25th FEBRUARY, 1926 

Vol. VII No. 10 
OFFICIAL REPORT 




CONTENTS 



Questions and Answers. 

Legal Practitioners (Amendment) Bill Passed as 

amended. 

Promissory Notes Stamp Bill Passed. 
Indian Trade Unions Bill Passed as amended. 
Election of a Panel for the Central Advisory Council for 

Railways. 

Nominations to the Panels for Standing Advisory Com- 
mittees. 



DELHI 

GOVERNMENT OF INDIA PRESS 
1926 



Price Five Annas. 



COUNCIL OF STATE. 

Thursday, 25th February. 1926. 



The Council met in the Council Chamber at Eleven of the Clock, 
Honourable the President in the Chair. 



QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS. 

ExrENMMTUKE ON THE IMPERIAL FoilEST RESEARCH INSTITUTE, DjflllllA 

Drx, JLTC. 

112. THE HONOURABLE SETII GOVJND DAS: Will the Government be 
pleased to state what is the total cost of the Imperial Forest Research 
Institute, Dehra Dun, to the Government of India? How many sections 
are there in the Institute? How many sections are put in charge of (a) 
European officers, and (b) Indian officers? How many officers in charge 
of the sections are in permanent employ and how many temporary? What 
are the qualifications of the officers in charge of the sections? 

THE HONOURABLE SIR MUHAMMAD HABIBULLAH: The work 
done at the Institute is of two kinds, research and education. Separate 
figures for the Research Institute and for the Forest College are not avail- 
able, but as a result of the recommendations of the Indian Retrenchment 
Committee, the annual expenditure for the Institute and College was 
limited to Rs. 8,78,000 per annum for 1923-24 and the two following 
years. An annual revenue of over one lakh is realised from Local Gov- 
ernments, elc., on fees for students and from other sources. 

There are five branches at the Institute, e.g., Botanical, Economic, 
Silviculture, Entomological and Chemical. 

A statement giving the further information asked for in this question 
is placed on the table. 



Branch. 



1. SiMcultnre 

2. Economic Branch 

Sections. 

(n) Minor Forest Pro- 
ducts. 

(I) Wood Technology 



Officer. 



H. (i. Champion on de- 
putation from IT. P. 

C. C. Wilson, on depu- 
tation from Madras. 



Vacant. 



Qualifications. 



B. A., T. F. S. 
B. A., 1. F. S. 



Kept in abeyance for 5 years from April 192-1. 

f 293 ) 



RKM \HKS. 



294 



COUNCIL OF STATE. 



[25TH 



1920. 



Brunch. 


Officer. 


Qualifications. 


REMARKS. 


(c) Paper Pulp . 


W. Raitt (Temporary) . 


F. C S. i* a pa ic and 








pulp maker by pro- 








fession. 




(d) Seasoning 


S. Fitzgerald (Tem- 


IK a seasoning expert 




(f) Wood Preservation . 


porary). 
.T. H, Wnrr (Temporary) 


by profession. 
Is H wood preserva- 








tion expert by 








profession. 




(/) Timber Testing . 


L. N. Sei-imn (Tem- 


M. A., B. Sc., M.E.I.C. 






porary). 






(y) Workshops 


W. N:i<?lc (Tempo- 


Is nil expert wood 






rary). 


worker by profes- 








sion. 




3. Botanical Branch 


K. N. Parker on deputa- 


I. F. S. . 


Mr. Pnrkcr is ;it pre- 




tion from the Punjab. 




sent on le-n-e nnd 








his Assist nt Mr. 








B. C. riuptfl, M. 








Sc., F. L. S., is now 








in charge of cur- 








rent duties of that 








po^t. 


4. Entomological 


D. J. Atkinson on depu- 


I. F. S. Special trained 






tation from Burma. 


in forest entomology. 




5, Chemical . 


Dr. J. N. cn, on depu- 


M.A., Ph. I). 






tation from Agricul- 








ture Department. 







INDIANLSATION OF THE POSTS OF SPECIALISTS AT THE IMPERIAL F QUEST 
RESEARCH INSTITUTE AT DEUBA DUN. 

113. THE HONOURABLE SKTH GOVIND DAS : Will the Government be 
pleased to state what efforts have been made to put Indians in permanent 
charge of sections when the posts fall vacant or when the terms of the 
temporary specialist officers expire? 

THE HONOURABLE SIR MUHAMMAD HABTBULLAH : Four Indians 
have already been appointed to understudy the Paper Pulp, Wood Preser- 
vation, Timber Testing and Seasoning, experts. 

The sole test for charge of these very technical sections is efficiency. 
When vacancies occur Indians available will bo judged by that test and if 
found suitable they will be appointed. 

APPOINTMENT or AN INDIAN TO THE POST OF PRESIDENT OF THE IMPERIAL 
FOREST RESEARCH INSTITUTE, DETTKA Dux. 

114. THE HONOURABLE SETII GOVIND DAS : Will the Government be 
pleased to state whether they have considered the advisability of appoint- 
ing an Indian expert with scientific and commercial training as the 
President of the Imperial Forest Research Institute, Dehra Dun? 

THE HONOURABLE SIR MUHAMMAD HABIBULLAH : The reply is in 
the negative. The qualifications requisite for this post are more varied 
than is assumed in the Honourable Member's question and the sine qua 
non is a Thorough practical experience in forestry. When an Indian with 
requisite qualifications is available the Honourable Member may rest 
assi.red that his claims will be considered. 



QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS. 295 

REDUCTION OF THE NUMBER or OFFICERS IN RECEIPT OF Rs. 1,000 

A MONTH IN THU IMPERIAL FOREST RESEARCH INSTITUTE, 

DEHRA DUN. 

115. THE HONOURABLE SETH GOVIND DAS : Will the Government be 
pleased to state whether they have considered the advisability of reducing 
the number of officers getting over Rs. 1,000 a month with a view to 
retrenchment ? 

THE HONOURABLE SIR MUHAMM1AD HABIBULLAH: It is assumed 
that the Honourable Member's question refers to the Forest Research 
Institute and College, Dehra Dun. If so, -the reply is in- the negative. 

It is necessary to have officers of expedience at the Institute and a 
limitation of the rate of pay in the manner suggested would make it 'rn- 
ppssible to carry out the purposes of the Institute. 



NUMBER OF INSTRUCTORS AND ASSISTANT INSTRUCTORS IN THE IMPERIAL 
FOREST RESEARCH INSTITUTE AND COLLEGE, DEHRA DUN. 

116. THE HONOURABLE SETH GOVIND DAS: Will the Government be 
pleased to state the number of Instructors and Assistant Instructors 
in the Forest College, Dehra Dun? How many of them are Europeans 
and Indians? How many Indians have hold posts as Instructors since 
the College was founded? 

THE HONOURABLE SIR MUHAMMAD (HABlBULLAH : The sanctioned 
cadre includes 4 Instructors and 4 Assistant Instructors. Of these, 
seven are filled at present. Three Europeans hold Instructors' posts and 
four Indians hold Assistant Instructors 1 posts. 

No Indian has yet hold tlie post of an Instructor. 



CLOSING OF THE IMPERIAL FOHEST RESEARCH INSTITUTE, DEHRA DL T N T . 

117. THE HONOURABLE SETII GOVIND DAS: Will the Government be 
pleased to state whether thcv contemplate closing a part or the whole of 
the Institute in the near future? 

THE HONOURABLE SIR MUHAMMAD HABIBULLAH: The answer 
is in the negative. 



GRANT OF EXTENSIONS OF SERVICE TO TEMPORARY SPECIALIST OFFICERS 
EMPLOYED IN THE IMPERIAL FOREST RESEARCH INSTITUTE, DEHRA 

DUN. 

118. THE HONOURABLE SETH GOVIND DAS: Will the Government 
be pleased to state how many of the temporary specialist officers have 
been given extensions of tenures and the length and number at the exten- 
sions granted to each officer? 

A 2 



29G 



COUNCIL OF STATE. 



[25in FEB. 1926. 



THE HONOURABLE SIR MUHAMMAD HABIBULLAH: A statement 
giving the information asked for is laid on the table. 



Name of Officer. 


Section. 


1st appointment. 


lei extension. 


2nd extension. 


W. llailt . 


Paper Pulp 


For D years from 


For 2 years from 


For 1 year 






December 1920. 


December 1923. 


from Decem- 










ber 1925. 


8. Fitzgerald . 


Seasoning . 


For f> months 


For 2j years 








from February 


from August 








to Auj?uflt 1924. 


192 1. 




L. X. Scum in . 


Timber Testing . 


For 3 years from 


For 2 years from 


For 5 yeiTs 






September 1920. 


September 1923. 


from Novem- 










ber 1925. 


W. Xngle 


Workshops 


For 3 years from 


For 3 years from 








February 1921. 


February 192-1. 





GK.ANT OF EXTENSIONS OF SKIIYICE TO THE TIMBER TESTINU 

OF THK IMPERIAL FOKEST RESEARCH INSTITUTE, DEHHA DUN. 

J19. THE HONOURABLE SETII GOVIND DAS: Will the Government 
le pleased to state whether it is a fact that the officer in charge of the 
timber testing section was first employed for three years in September, 
1920, and has been since given an extension first of ten years and, when 
that term expired, for a further term of five years on a salary of Us. 1,750 
per month? If so, will the Government be pleased to state whether no 
qualified Indian was available for the post? 

THE HONOURABLE SIR MUHAMMAD HABIBULLAH: As will Lo 
observed from the statement laid on the table in reply to the Honourable 
Member's previous question, the services of Mr. L. N. Seaman, officer in 
charge, Timber Testing Section, have been retained for a total period of 
10 years in all. 

No qualified Indian was available for the post because the work done 
in the Timber Testing Section is of fin exceptionally technical nature. No 
Indian is as yet available to take charge otf the Section although two 
Indian officers have been tried under training. Mr. Seaman has been at 
Dchra Dun for a total period of 5J years. 



LEGAL PRACTITIONERS (AMENDMENT) BILL. 

THE HONOURABLE MR. S. E. DAS (Law Member) : Sir, I move that 
the Bill further to amend the Legal Practitioners Act, 1879, as passed by 
tho Legislative Assembly, be taken into consideration. 

This is another Bill which intends to give effect to a recommendation 
of the Civil Justice Committee and is intended to deal with the evil ot 
touting. In accordance with the suggestion of the Civil Justice Com- 
mittee the Bill provides a, new definition o? the word "tout". Under the 
present Legal Practitioners Act it is the District Judge who can declare 
a person to be a tout and 1 he has to hold the necessary inquiry. The Civil 
Justice Committee suggested that the district courts should be empowered 
to authorise subordinate courts before whom a particular tout is supposed to 
carry on his work to make the. necessary inquiry and submit a report to the 



LECAL PRACTITIONERS (AMENDMENT) BILL. 97 

District Judge who should be Hie person to include the name of the tout 
in the list of touts, of course, after again hearing the person who is charged 
as a tout. The Bill attempts to give effect to that recommendati-j?!. 
Again, there has always been a diiliculty in proving what is the general 
repute of the tout, and the Civil Justice Committee recommended thai 
if the Bar Associations passed a resolution by a majority that a certain 
person was a tout, that should be taken as evidence of general repute, and 
the explanation in clause 3 of the new Bill provides for that. The Civil 
Justice Committee also suggested that there should be some punishment 
for a tout who, after being declared to be a tout, still carries on his work 
as a tout, and the last sub-clause of clause 3 provides for that. I move 
that the Bill be taken into consideration. 

The motion was adopted. 

THE -HONOURABLE MR. S. R. DAS: Sir, I move as an amendment: 

" That in clause (a) of the definition proposed to he inserted in the Legal Practi- 
tioners Act, 1879, by clause 2 of the Bill : 

(1) the words * or from any person interested in any legal business ' be omitted, 

and 

(2) for the words ' in such business ' where they first occur, the words 4 in any 

legal business ' bo substituted." 

In the definition given in the Bill a tout is said to be a person who pro- 
cui'L's. in consideration of any remuneration moving from any legal practi- 
tioner or from any person interested in any legal business, the employ- 
ment of the legal practitioner in such business. It was pointed out during 
the debate in the Legislative Assembly that the words "or from any per- 
son interested in any legal business'* may include the case of a client em- 
ploying a person to procure him a legal practitioner which he would be 
justified in doing and which would not necessarily make that person a 
tout, and it was suggested that this matter should be considered in the 
Council of State. In view of the expression of opinion of the Legislative 1 
Assembly, with which the Government agree, I am now moving as , r m 
amendment that the words "or from any person interested in any le^al 
business " should be omitted, and that as a consequential amendment in 
place of the words "in such business' 1 where they first occur, the words 
4 'in any legal business" be substituted. 

The motion was adopted. 

Clause 2, as amended, was added to the Bill. 
Clause 1 was added to the Bill. 

The Title and the Preamble were added to the Bill. 
THE HONOURABLE Ma. S. R. DAB : Sir, I move that the Bill, as passed 
by tho Legislative Assembly, and as amended by this Council, be passed. 

The motion was adopted. 



PROMISSORY NOTES (STAMP) BILL. 

THE HONOURABLE MR. A. C. McWATTERS (Secretary, Finance 
Department) : Sir, I move that the Bill to provide for the validation of 
certain promissory notes, as passed by the Legislative Assembly, be taken 
into consideration. 



COUNCIL OF STATE. [25TH FEB. 1926. 

[Mr. A. C. McWatters.] 

The object of this Bill is to validate certain promissory notes which 
erroneously but in good faith have been stamped with postage stamps of 
two annas and four annas. The situation has arisen in this way. The 
Indian Stamp (Amendment) Bill which came into force on the 1st 
October 192ft niisc'd the rate of stamp duty on promissory notes from 
the uniform rate of one anna to a sliding scale from one anna to four 
anrias according lo the value of the promissory notes. On the same 
date u notification was issued amending the Stamp Rules to allow postage 
and revenue stamps of one unria and half an anna to be used for stamp duty 
on such notes. Later, on the 5th of January, 1025, a further notifica- 
tion was issued which allowed the use of postage stamps of two annas 
und four annas. But it has come to our notice that in the meantime 
between the date- of the passing of the Act and the 5th of January 1925 
certain promissory notos have been stamped with postage stamps of 
two annas and four annas under the impression that this was legiti- 
mate. The Government of India, in order to validate such notes and to 
avoid any possible hardship to people who have stamped their documents 
in this manner, have brought forward this Bill after consulting Local 
Governments. 

r t he motion was adopted : 

Clause 2 was added to the Bill. 

Clause 1 was added to the Bill. 

The Title and the Preamble were added to the Bill. 

THE HONOUHABLE MR. A. C. McWATTEKS : Sir, I move that the Bill, 
as passed by the Legislative Assembly, be passed. 

The motion was adopted. 



INDIAN TRADE UNIONS BILL. 

THE HONOURABLE THE PRESIDENT: Before I call on the Honour- 
able Mr. Ley to move the motion standing in his name on the paper, 
I have to place certain facts before the Council. If the Council will 
turn to clause 15 of the Bill as passed by the Legislative Assembly, 
which is before them, and if they will turn to sub-clause (d) of clause 15, 
they will see the words "the conduct of trade disputes" printed there. 
In the Bill which the Assembly was considering when it was passed, clause 
(d) ran as follows: "the conduct of trade disputes on behalf of the 
Trade Union or any member thereof". An amendment was moved in 
another place to omit those last ten words, and it was rejected. There- 
fore in the Bill as passed there those ten words were retained, but by 
some unaccountable mistake, for which I may say at once, the staff of 
this Council is not responsible, those ten words were omitted in the 
copy of the Bill which was laid on the table of this House as the Bill 
passed by the Legislative Assembly. Technically, therefore, the Bill 
as passed by the Legislative Assembly was not laid on this table the 
other day 1 think T may assume, after the explanation I have given 
to the Council that the Bill, a correct copy of which is now laid on the 
table, has now been laid on the table of this House. 



INDIAN TRADE UNIONS BILL. 

Under the Standing Orders the Honourable Mr. Ley is therefore now 
-entitled to give three days' notice of his motion to take this Bill into 
consideration. At the same time, tho Chair has discretion to allow him 
to move the motion without notice. I have explained the circumstance? 
to Honourable Members, because 1 am myself willing to leave the deci- 
sion in their hands whether we should proceed with this measure to-day 
or not. I have the power to allow the Honourable Mr. Ley to move 
the motion standing in his name, but if any Honourable Member objects 
on the ground that we should require further notice in view of the facts 
to which I have d